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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/18/2008 7:34:00 PM
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jbow
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...and this man is seriously being considered for President of the United States of America??? A man who hold's to this black liberation theology??? What sort of fools are we??
I'll answer that for you... the kind of fools who prefer their heads deep in the sand so that they don't have to really know anything, they can just feel right and have warm fuzzies. It is sad. We desperately need some good civics and history teachers in America.
It terrifies me that this many people don't care anything about the truth, they just want to believe the best because someone looks nice and talks well and they want change... what kind of change?? They don't know... just change...
We have way too many people on the voter rolls. We need to restrict voters to people who own property of at least 1/4 acre and/or who have an established work record. No one on any government assistance should vote. People who vote should have ownership in our society.
IT make's me crazy!!!!
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/18/2008 7:59:07 PM
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facedown
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rcjames
i've admitted not knowing much. so my postings reflect that - and when i hear an argument that demands much, i certainly expect something else other than "here's what it is" - if the argument is to have any credibility, that is. maybe, one should cite more, when they make arguments?
earthless
possibly, but does one person make up "black liberation theology"?
in terms of: regarding "black liberation theology" specifically.
graham
"unsubstantial answer"? really? how so - is something that is a result non-central? is matt 5:1-10 non-central? is god not in the "liberation business"
1love1god1way
certainly, i think. care to explain?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/18/2008 9:34:14 PM
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designed
Posts: 228
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quote:
jbow-
We have way too many people on the voter rolls. We need to restrict voters to people who own property of at least 1/4 acre and/or who have an established work record. No one on any government assistance should vote. People who vote should have ownership in our society.
What in the world of liberation theology are you talking about? What is your elitist assesment of voting restrictions going to change? I'm sorry, maybe I missed something here, but are you for real with this stuff/rant?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:35
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 7:12:28 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
graham
"unsubstantial answer"? really? how so - is something that is a result non-central? is matt 5:1-10 non-central? is god not in the "liberation business"
All you did was give a Bible reference. Do you know how many interpretations of that portion of scripture there are? You can point to a reference and then assume that we all take from it the same identical interpretation you do--well, an answer like that lacks substance.
As to whether or not God is in the liberation business, He is. But His central goals are not economic liberation. He uses economic means in order to punish or to reward. But it is a means to an end--getting us to repent and to be saved from sin.
Sometimes, He deliberately economic/social upheavals, plagues and invasions of foreigners in order to get His people to repent from their sin.
So His social and economic liberation is peripheral and not central.
A lot of these liberation theologies assume that the primary mission of His Church is economic liberation of the masses. That's built more on the premises of socialism than of Christianity.
And many of them consider the economic disparities that exist--that they exist because of the oppression of those who have.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 3/19/2008 7:53:46 AM >
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Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 8:02:05 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
earthless
possibly, but does one person make up "black liberation theology"?
in terms of: regarding "black liberation theology" specifically.
That's not the question. The truth is that Wright is a racist and hateful man.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 9:00:17 AM
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P31W
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quote:
does one person make up "black liberation theology"?
Rev. Wright teaches pretty much what James Cone wrote. Rev. Wright told the audience to study his works. So I will take it that James Cone the one who best describes what Rev. Wright teaches/preaches and what Obama and his family have been chosen to identify themselves with.
This might be a good book for you to start with inorder to find out what they teach. James Cone Black Theology and Black Power
"To put it simply, Black Theology knows no authority more binding than the experience of oppression itself. This alone must be the ultimate authority in religious matters" Cones pg 120
You asked if "one person" makes up the entire movement the answer is no. Cone does not advocate violence. That is a strong point for him. But he also does not teach that we are to forgive and be reconciled to one another. He keeps the divide in the races alive and licks those wounds keeping reconciliation almost impossible to occur.
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Of course my biggest problem with BLT is that it's man centered and not God centered. You asked earlier if that was true and my answer is simply "yes". Read what Cones says "must be the ultimate authority alone" - it ain't God - it's human experience and how one chooses to view that experience.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/19/2008 9:13:59 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 10:35:10 AM
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jbow
Posts: 841
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quote:
ORIGINAL: designed
quote:
jbow-
We have way too many people on the voter rolls. We need to restrict voters to people who own property of at least 1/4 acre and/or who have an established work record. No one on any government assistance should vote. People who vote should have ownership in our society.
What in the world of liberation theology are you talking about? What is your elitist assesment of voting restrictions going to change? I'm sorry, maybe I missed something here, but are you for real with this stuff/rant?
Study up. There is no right to vote in the USA only a privilege to vote that is granted to certain people by the states. In 1776 when our country began, our founders, in their wisdom restricted voting to male property owners. We now have an ammendment that includes women and i have no problem with women voting, I do have a problem with people who will vote for whoever will tkae the most from others and give it to them. That is why I believe that voting should be restricted to folks who have a stake in our country. We still do not allow felons to vote. I am not proposing something new, I am proposing something more like the way our country was designed to be. A republic.... far from a democracy.
By law we cannot restrict anyone from voting due to race, sex, age, nor can we impose a poll tax. However, we could still require property ownership. We could restrict people from voting who are on government assistance, and that is, IMO, what we should do.
My only point is that we need to do something to restrict people who vote for a living, who vote for whoever they thin will give them the most. When enough people realize that they can vote for the candidate who will take money from the people who work and give it to them so they can lay around on the couch... then we are doomed. People who are on government aid should not be allowed to vote. That would probably be enough without going back to only property owners voting.
I don't know why you would have a problem with this.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 10:50:45 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
I don't know why you would have a problem with this.
I can tell you why I have a problem with it. A very hugemongombous problem with it. I think it's an excessively simplistic view of what it means to have a stake in this country along with a lack of understanding of how means tests for voting have been used historically in this country.
1) There are many ways one can "have a stake" in this country beyond simple land ownership. Many people (for example in New York City) have significant wealth but are renters by necessity. Through ownership of stock, government debt, etc they have a stake.
2) Most folks work. Their paychecks represent future wealth and a stake in this economy. Even in the absence of present accumulated wealth, they have a stake in this country.
3) There are many who do not work but have paid into social security all their lives and are currently drawing on that accumulated obligation from the US Govt. For some, that's the majority of their current income. That's a stake in this country.
4) Unemployed folk who are actively seeking work have future paychecks at stake. They have an interest in this country.
5) Those who are physically incapable of work (my cousin & my uncle with MS for example who couldn't move or talk) and are forced to rely on others for support are dependent upon the charity of this country for their survival. That's having a stake and an interest in where we're going.
6) Means tests such as land ownership historically have been used to disqualify minority voters. Politically speaking, it's just not possible to roll the clock back to those dark days of our history. Means tests are inherently discriminatory.
7) Voting is indeed a priviledge, but in a democracy it's also a civil right. It's a necessary right. If voting is restricted to a certain portion of the population, then it no longer is a democracy. At some point, when the restrictions become tight enough, it becomes oligarchy.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 11:08:37 AM
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SuspenseWriter
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Just to clarify, the United States isn't a "democracy", and never has been; it's a "Constitutional Republic"...or at least, that was the original idea.
Just sayin'. Carry on.
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writer of suspense...obviously!
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 12:51:08 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Just to clarify, the United States isn't a "democracy", and never has been; it's a "Constitutional Republic"...or at least, that was the original idea.
Yup...still is and I get upset every once in a while when those nuts I voted for vote the wrong way!!
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 12:52:49 PM
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GroupW
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Technically correct. Thanks for the clarification.
Either way, whether democracy or constitutional republic, the proper functioning of society would demand that all rightful citizens have a vote without interference. It remains both a civil right and a priviledge.
And yes, it's annoying when those nuts don't do what I tell them to do. Don't they realize that I'm right?
BT
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 12:56:54 PM
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bob97
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What is disturbing is when they vote against the majority of voters on many of these social issues... then of course it is a Republic.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 1:37:49 PM
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facedown
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graham
god uses economic means to punish or reward?
interesting thought.....
so, if someone is poor, it might be because god is punishing them, and the opposite if they are rich? sounds too much like WoF to be honest...
earthless
that may not be the "question" - but the question in this thread *is* "black liberation theology"
p31
do you believe that the quotes you provide about cone (who is a professor at union theological seminary...) interpret these, or the other way around?
"I encounter the universal meaning of oppression and liberation that is not limited by skin color"
speaking of persons of any color: "I hope they are not excluded from my interpretation of the gospel"
"I chose blackness because of my experience... I do not contend that blackness is the appropriate term for all historical situations of oppression and liberation."
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 2:01:45 PM
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bob97
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quote:
i also understand that methodist james cone is considered a leading theologin, and that the main message is one of freedom for all people - even though this particular movement speaks primarily concerning the freedom of blacks.
Facedown…Is this the Dr. James Cone that you are eluding to?
Dr. Cone has explained the his theology as follows:
Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love
Some of Cones quotes have drawn controversy. Barak Obama's former minister Jeremiah Wright was inspired by Cone. Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create.
• "To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people."
• "While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism." [Black Theology and
• "All white men are responsible for white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24]
• "Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black
• "If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it."
Source: Wikipedia
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 3:07:30 PM
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jbow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
I don't know why you would have a problem with this.
I can tell you why I have a problem with it. A very hugemongombous problem with it. I think it's an excessively simplistic view of what it means to have a stake in this country along with a lack of understanding of how means tests for voting have been used historically in this country.
1) There are many ways one can "have a stake" in this country beyond simple land ownership. Many people (for example in New York City) have significant wealth but are renters by necessity. Through ownership of stock, government debt, etc they have a stake.
2) Most folks work. Their paychecks represent future wealth and a stake in this economy. Even in the absence of present accumulated wealth, they have a stake in this country.
3) There are many who do not work but have paid into social security all their lives and are currently drawing on that accumulated obligation from the US Govt. For some, that's the majority of their current income. That's a stake in this country.
4) Unemployed folk who are actively seeking work have future paychecks at stake. They have an interest in this country.
5) Those who are physically incapable of work (my cousin & my uncle with MS for example who couldn't move or talk) and are forced to rely on others for support are dependent upon the charity of this country for their survival. That's having a stake and an interest in where we're going.
6) Means tests such as land ownership historically have been used to disqualify minority voters. Politically speaking, it's just not possible to roll the clock back to those dark days of our history. Means tests are inherently discriminatory.
7) Voting is indeed a priviledge, but in a democracy it's also a civil right. It's a necessary right. If voting is restricted to a certain portion of the population, then it no longer is a democracy. At some point, when the restrictions become tight enough, it becomes oligarchy.
Yeah... I know... you are right. I just get really frustrated by people who have no clue whatsoever voting for what? they don't really know... except for whoever they think will take more money from the evil rich and give it to them. Maybe I am wrong but I just think people should think more of the good of our country and wish there were some way to stop the tide of people voting for a "living".
I know that means testing would never work in todays world, only in an honorable and honest soceity would that work and that is rare. We maybe had it for a very few years then corruption takes over. What we have is better that what most of the world has ever had to offer.
I apologize for my ranting, I know better, I just get frustrated. I will hold one position... people on government aid, other that SS, should not vote. It is a conflict of interest, IMO. I would never, ever want to disenfranchise people who worked all their life and are now retired... even if I do disagree with most of them, including my dad...
My dad is a "yellow dog" democrat. His dad died when he was three, his grandfather died young. His only male role model was Grandpa Chapman, a Confederate veteran. To my dad and a LOT of other elderly southern gentlemen... the republican party is the party of Lincoln. We are all closer to the past than most people realize.
Oh well... I feel a little better, thanks for taking the time to talk sense to me...
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 3:38:27 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
Joined: 11/16/2007
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Julien-
No worries. I totally understand the rant.
I've often been tempted to say that people ought to be required to take at least 2 courses in economics and 1 course in constitutional law before they are allowed to vote. The amount of ignorance on how economies work is overwhelming to me. Then again, I went to school for an obscene number of years to learn all this, so it's not surprising that I have a sensitivity there.
One thing - we're all conflicted in one way or another. I paid more in taxes last year than many people's gross income. I'm conflicted in that I'd sure appreciate lower taxes. We've got a big national debt to pay off right now thanks to the current administration, so that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
Someone on welfare is conflicted as well, just not on tax outflows but on welfare inflows. In the end, it's the same motivation to vote your pocketbook. To some extent we all do it.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 4:08:38 PM
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renewedmind37
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Speaking as a believer, a black man and a minister of the gospel, I would like to clear up a few things in regards to Black Liberation Theology. First let us remove the word "black" from this discussion, Christian Theology is inherently a liberation theology"...who the Son sets free is truly free indeed..." those are the words of The Master not mine.
While I know that in the proper context this passage refers to freedom from sin, since the moment the first African was subjugated and dehumanized; oppression and racism have been a part of the black experience in the Western hemisphere.
Racism is the sin that has enslaved the mind, heart and soul of the African. While this is no excuse for reverse racism or the black supremacist that is sometimes alluded to. I have a problem with a Black preacher that does not address the issues that are relevent to Black existence in the context of the western hemisphere.
It white supremacy intermingled with false christianity is responsible for the inhumanity that we as a people have experienced. Ask my grandfather who remembers as a child seeing lynching made a public specticle in the town square on Sunday's after church. Ask an uncle of my mother who was lynched and ask the countless Africans that were kidnapped and humiliated all in the name of the same phoney "gospel".
To say that this is wrong or false is just as bad if not worst than denying the holocaust, I pray that oneday the country will have advanced so far that black liberation theology is irrelevant and obsolete, but today that is not the case.
I wonder why no one has a problem with John Hagee and his ideas but you are all up in arms about a black asserting his beliefs. One question what is Rev. Wright's sermon was false? I am not asking for opinion but give me fact.
Peace in Jesus' Name
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 4:10:15 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4749
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
earthless
that may not be the "question" - but the question in this thread *is* "black liberation theology"
Yes, revolving around Jeremiah Wright's preachings. Do you still disagree with my comment that we are all one race at the foot of the cross? That God does not make distinctions between color of skin, ethnic creed, etc...
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/19/2008 4:15:40 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4749
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quote:
ORIGINAL: renewedmind37
Speaking as a believer, a black man and a minister of the gospel, I would like to clear up a few things in regards to Black Liberation Theology. First let us remove the word "black" from this discussion, Christian Theology is inherently a liberation theology"...who the Son sets free is truly free indeed..." those are the words of The Master not mine.
While I know that in the proper context this passage refers to freedom from sin, since the moment the first African was subjugated and dehumanized; oppression and racism have been a part of the black experience in the Western hemisphere.
Racism is the sin that has enslaved the mind, heart and soul of the African. While this is no excuse for reverse racism or the black supremacist that is sometimes alluded to. I have a problem with a Black preacher that does not address the issues that are relevent to Black existence in the context of the western hemisphere.
It white supremacy intermingled with false christianity is responsible for the inhumanity that we as a people have experienced. Ask my grandfather who remembers as a child seeing lynching made a public specticle in the town square on Sunday's after church. Ask an uncle of my mother who was lynched and ask the countless Africans that were kidnapped and humiliated all in the name of the same phoney "gospel".
To say that this is wrong or false is just as bad if not worst than denying the holocaust, I pray that oneday the country will have advanced so far that black liberation theology is irrelevant and obsolete, but today that is not the case.
I wonder why no one has a problem with John Hagee and his ideas but you are all up in arms about a black asserting his beliefs. One question what is Rev. Wright's sermon was false? I am not asking for opinion but give me fact.
Peace in Jesus' Name
Renewedmind,
Firstly, welcome to the boards.. it is nice of you to join us for this discussion and I hope you are here for the long haul.
Secondly, many of us in this thread have strongly come against John Hagee's teachings and books. So much so that we have an entire thread dedicated to his teachings/books in the 'Church' sub-forum. Please do a Search there and you will see how his teachings are abhorrent on many levels.
Thirdly, in reading your post I am reminded of P31W's post from j | | |
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