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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/18/2008 7:16:03 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5184
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
earthless
the point of conversation and dialogue in a forum is just that
in post 5 you suppose that hymns have no business in "modern churches"
Slow your roll. I never said that. I was being sarcastic in saying that many "modern" churches do not want anything to do with traditional hymns, and for the most part, that is true.
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
-
such an argument has no basis, has no credibility, and represents nothing but a personal, non-critical thinking point of view and a total lack of discernment and without reason.
Now you know how I said it, perhaps you will retract some of the above statements.
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
now, does your observation have any merit? i'm sure. but given in such a general way that all "new" or "modern" or "post-modern" or whatever churches are unwelcoming to anything "old" is inaccurate to say the least.
and in addition, i would suspect, that if "old" hymns were a primal part to what s acceptable, your gathering might have "old" hymns - maybe phos hilaron chanted by chance?
Again, there is nothing for me to respond to here when you clearly misunderstood me. But thank you for your concern about whether or not I understand what a forum is and or what a conversation entails.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 8:33:50 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1488
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
soxfan
what details construct your check list for "evanjellyfish" services?
1. NO mention of sin in the message
2. NO mention of the need for repentance
3. NO mention of the need for a Savior in your message
4. Overall lack of Scripture reference in your message
5. Music with absolutely NO substance. The "Jesus is My Girlfriend" types
6. A congreagtion where the majority of people do not have their Bibles in their hands, but rather rely on Scripture posted on a screen and witty anecdotes from the pastor.
7. Relying more on "cutting edge" video clips to make a point that using the Word of God.
8. People more concerned about "feeding" on their coffee or bagel, than the Word.
Actually, I can make it easier. Watch a Joel Osteen or Rober Schuller "message" sometime.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 9:23:38 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
As I said at first I was very excited, but after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church. Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church, but it turned into long term Christians just getting lazy and disrespectful in church.
Believe it or not I have watched people come and go in traditional servies.
Never seen the "talk" on the cell phone but it's certainly gone off during the service. (warning people beware your ring tone may be heard by an entire congregation - you may want to change it)
Texting during traditional church service - OH YES!!!!! That's rather new around here but in the past I have watched school teachers grade papers and someone else hide a romance novel inside a bible holder.
In our traditional service we have had women come in with white fitted shirts and no bra. Low cut with pushup bras. People where short shorts and sake their booties as you say and other "out there stuff".
The expensive cloths bit has also occured more than a few times in traditional services.
It's not the "type of service" that's the problem.
It's the same problem Paul faced in his day when the Chruch in Corinth got drunk at the love feast, would not share with the poor at the love feast and allowed them to go hungry and boasted about the man they had in their congregation who was having sex with a family member. Also back then the congregation in Corinth was still leaning heavily into sleeping with prostitutes.
Now that I think about it maybe things are a little better today then back then.
quote:
the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, but the delivery is a little different.
Now this is extremely important. The Churches in the NT had their fair share of false teachers and that was one of the main things Paul was having to deal with. But here it appears that the doctrine is sound.
With sound doctrine congregations will grow and mature in their faith as they obey the Holy Spirit living within them. Sometimes new congregations are filled with non-believers or new converts. I would think it would be the norm to have more "issues" so to speak with an immature congregation than a more mature one...(spiritural maturity)
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/19/2008 9:42:47 AM >
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 9:33:03 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1488
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
...Also back then the congregation in Corinth was still leaning heavily into sleeping with prostitutes.
Now that I think about it maybe things are a little better today then back then.
Two words...Ted Haggard
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 9:37:40 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
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Yes that is one man and yes a public preacher.
However
The church in Corinth was immature and many people believed what you did with your body had no effect on you soul. Therefore it was not considered to be a big deal that people had sex with whomever. Paul had to teach the people that this was wrong.
This immature church who should have matured faster were so worldly that Paul had to write them concerning having sex with prostitutes. They didn't understand what "freedom in Christ" really means.
1 Cor. 6
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Believe it or not these Christians in the Church at Corinth were openly involved with prostitutes.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/19/2008 9:47:06 AM >
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 9:45:43 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
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Hey Adam!!! Great post.
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 4:17:22 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 502
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
I guess my flip side to this is ...
Is this not the same sweeping gerneralizations the some modern chruches say tradtional churchs make about them?
I get so tired when people act like the only way you can reach young people is to throw out the hymns, reading the Bible (thats not on a powerpoint display) etc. My 2 best friends say they would give anything to be in a 'traditional' church but they just settle for modern ones.
Yes, of course it was a generalization. It was what I meant by "the flip side" you can generalize that churches that have one style are all lazy and just as easily find examples of churches in another style that have problems just as bad. It's the substance, not the style that matters.
Just curious though... if your friends want traditional worship why don't they go to a church that offers it?
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 4:20:32 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1282
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarryLee
My entire life has been spent in traditional conservative Southern Baptist churches. So, I was very excited when a local Southern Baptist minister started a new church with a casual modern worship style. This includes extensive use of audio visual aids, a rock band, casual clothing, drama presentations, beverages in the sanctuary, etc. Now, the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, but the delivery is a little different.
As I said at first I was very excited, but after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church. Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church, but it turned into long term Christians just getting lazy and disrespectful in church.
Has anyone else experienced this in other “modern” churches?
So-called Christendom is based upon “philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (Col 2:8).
Read the Pauline epistles and you will find that church practice looks NOTHING that way it was commanded in the NT. You can start with 1 Corinthians 14 for starters.
So-called “pastors” are paid hirelings, and all the many that we’ve known take their lessons from
“Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence...” (3 John 1:9).
Some more info here: http://www.looktotheeast.com/modern%20churches.htm
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 5:29:51 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
A lot of the new light , fluffy worship services seem to create believers that never leave the shallows for the deep water. A definition would be helpful. I have seen "worship lite" defined many different ways that would fit modern churches and "traditional churches". IMO, "Worship lite" has nothing to do with the music, the songs, or anything remotely related to that. Rather, "worship lite" has to do with the spirit behind the singing. Are people genuinely connecting to God and loving Him? If no, worship lite. If yes, the music is u-n-i-m-p-o-r-t-a-n-t. When we reach the White Throne, we won't be judged by whether or not we sang "How Great Thou Art" enough times in our life. quote:
Oh, I know... but it's a rarity. Addendum: It's a rarity depending on the area you live in and what strand of church you ascribe to. quote:
I guess I'd be less concerned about watching people in the Sunday service for a few months and more concerned about watching people in their real life for a year. If the world was ideal, they would be the same person. Obviously, the world is far from ideal... I think the point stands uncontested.quote:
At my Church we do a variety of musical styles and during praise and worship folks may be standing, jumping up and down, kneeling, prostrate on the floor, or sitting and hanging on to a hymnal for dear life; but no booty shaking. Random anatomical fact: when you jump, your posterior jiggles... Now, if you are referring to dirty dancing, then good. There isn't much positive that can come from club-style dancing at church (unless it's a mosh pit... not only do you get to dance, but if done properly, affords the chance to pray for God's healing afterwards).quote:
These light, fluffy, Osteen/Warren-like services create what I like to call "Evanjellyfish". No backbone, no spine, and they just float around listening to and believing anything they hear. Admittedly, I have very little respect for the message of Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. However, I will ask that we refrain from putting down their constituents, because they are just trying to follow Jesus... like we all are.quote:
I have nothing against projecting Scirpture on a screen, but what happens is people leave their Bibles home. Therefore, they never refer to it to ensure that the teaching lines up with Scripture. That is a problem with the church members and not the church itself. Some put the scripture on a screen as a signal to visitors that they are preaching the Bible. It is a lack of maturity that you listen to everything your pastor says and just believe it like it is Gospel... but so many do it.quote:
Is this not the same sweeping gerneralizations the some modern chruches say tradtional churchs make about them?
I get so tired when people act like the only way you can reach young people is to throw out the hymns, reading the Bible (thats not on a powerpoint display) etc. My 2 best friends say they would give anything to be in a 'traditional' church but they just settle for modern ones. (btw we are in our 20s)
The 'modern' way of doing church may work for the baby boomers but please don't act like your doing it for us younger people. If you look at the emerging church it is even going more 'traditional' in how it does things with candels and litergey etc. And they are aming for my generation. As someone who is 20 (and hence, in your generation) who has spent quite a bit of time in churches of both stripes, your church environment doesn't matter half as much as your spiritual life on Monday-Saturday. To quote a preacher I sat under for a while, "If someone watched television for two-to-four hours a week, we would not say they worship television. However, someone can do the exact same thing with God and we say 'look how committed they are!'"quote:
I don't know about the "booty shanking" but the strangest thing I've seen on youTube in recent months is when Lou Engle is praying. He bobs up and down like one of those bird toys. And then some kids in the audience start subconsciously picking up on it and do it too. **said with quivering voice** must...... not...... dignify...... with...... answerrrrrrr..............quote:
Slow your roll. I never said that. I was being sarcastic in saying that many "modern" churches do not want anything to do with traditional hymns, and for the most part, that is true. Your actual words........ "That's because those kind of churches do not play "How Great Thou Art", nor "Amazing Grace" - those are old and unwelcoming to those they wish to attract." I fail to see the sarcasm when referring to "those kind of churches". Next!quote:
1. NO mention of sin in the message
2. NO mention of the need for repentance
3. NO mention of the need for a Savior in your message
4. Overall lack of Scripture reference in your message
5. Music with absolutely NO substance. The "Jesus is My Girlfriend" types
6. A congreagtion where the majority of people do not have their Bibles in their hands, but rather rely on Scripture posted on a screen and witty anecdotes from the pastor.
7. Relying more on "cutting edge" video clips to make a point that using the Word of God.
8. People more concerned about "feeding" on their coffee or bagel, than the Word.
1. This is my main problem with Joel Osteen
2. Same as above... redundacy is just so repetitive
3. There seems to be a theme... basically, this is the same thing three different ways.
4. This would be somewhat subjective from where I sit. "There wasn't enough Bible" well, what's enough?
5. I have yet to actually see a "Jesus is my Girlfriend" song... I would be scared to sing one if I did.
6. Once again, not the church's fault... that is the fault of the people in the pews.
7. So you didn't enjoy Acquire the Fire?
8. Welcome to middle-class America. "Our finances are solid, so we don't need God as much as we profess."quote:
Two words...Ted Haggard Three words... One broken human.quote:
Hey Adam!!! Great post. Begging your pardon, P31W, were you referring to me?
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 5:40:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5184
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Adam,
Sorry my sarcasm wasn't clear enough. But now that my comment has been more than clarified, happy reading.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 5:47:31 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5334
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Read the Pauline epistles ...
Good advice... Lets see:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
(From Ephesians 4)
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 8:50:21 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1504
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I find it interesting that these people are getting railed as Emergent when their SBC doctrine hasn't changed!
*LOL* so true, so true.
quote:
What we need to avoid spiritual boredom is revival, signs and wonders to be made manifest in the body of Christ.
AMEN!
quote:
Is this not the same sweeping gerneralizations that some modern churches say tradtional churchs make about them?
We ALL make sweeping generalizations about people who are different from us. We may never get away from that, until of course we're in heaven.
quote:
I was being sarcastic in saying that many "modern" churches do not want anything to do with traditional hymns, and for the most part, that is true.
I don't wish to be argumentative, but I would have to disagree with you. All the modern churches I've been to, visited, been part of, love hymns that are put to a bit more updated music. David Crowder does a hymn or two on every CD of his and does a fabulous job. Matt Redman has hymns on some of his CDs, as does Chris Tomlin. We LOVE hymns!
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/19/2008 9:06:10 PM >
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/19/2008 10:50:19 PM
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sue244
Posts: 338
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
Just curious though... if your friends want traditional worship why don't they go to a church that offers it?
They can't find one in their area. Its hard to find one. I know I spent 4 years looking until I found a nice traditonal church.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/20/2008 2:48:53 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Begging your pardon, P31W, were you referring to me?
Adam
Yep I was talking to you! Again great post!!! You and I appear to agree on many points.
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/20/2008 6:07:11 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 385
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarryLee
My entire life has been spent in traditional conservative Southern Baptist churches. So, I was very excited when a local Southern Baptist minister started a new church with a casual modern worship style. This includes extensive use of audio visual aids, a rock band, casual clothing, drama presentations, beverages in the sanctuary, etc. Now, the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, but the delivery is a little different.
As I said at first I was very excited, but after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church. Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church, but it turned into long term Christians just getting lazy and disrespectful in church.
Has anyone else experienced this in other “modern” churches?
So-called Christendom is based upon “philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (Col 2:8).
Read the Pauline epistles and you will find that church practice looks NOTHING that way it was commanded in the NT. You can start with 1 Corinthians 14 for starters.
So-called “pastors” are paid hirelings, and all the many that we’ve known take their lessons from
“Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence...” (3 John 1:9).
Some more info here: http://www.looktotheeast.com/modern%20churches.htm
notmycity,
I followed your link and read the first few paragraphs. I must say that I disagree with both assertions. If you pay attention to the context of Paul's teaching on giving (1Corinthains 9) you might notice that he is talking about a "free will" offering, not tithing. When it comes to tithing I follow this rule of thumb: if Jesus did it, then so should I. If Jesus commanded it, then I should obey it. In any case, if we take Paul's teaching in 1Corinthians as the standard for tithing, then it is clear that we should be willing to give far more than ten percent because our desire should be to give generously. However, most people use that passage as an excuse to give far less than ten percent.
Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with the OP; just wanted you to know that context is important to understanding the intent of the message.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 8:58:30 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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Good post Mushhead. I like your rule of thumb. It's not complex are hard to understand. Nor does it take hour upon hour to "figure out".
Back to the topic.
I want to warn you folks of something. At one time "Amazing Grace" was a "contempory" song. At one time our "traditional services" were considered contempory. At one time what a man or woman wore to Chruch (dresses that show ANY leg and a man without a suite and tie) was considered "sinful".
Let us be careful that we don't throw out the baby with with bathwater.
When it comes to Chruch "styles" do change. They change with every generation. Music taste Change and what one person finds beautiful and bring them into a state of true worship may bring another to tears becaue they simply can't stand the beat, tempo, understand the termonology and so on.
As long as the doctrine is sound we need to pray for them. We must also be very careful when we judge too quickly a plant or new church congregation. Most of them are filled with new converts or the lost. As scripture shows us over and over again. New Chruch often have many problems because the congregation as a "whole" is not as mature as a well established church where a majority of the membership have twenty five years of living the walk under their belt and growth in Jesus.
Churches in this country are differant from churches in other countries. Let's not pretend that what "we NOW CALL" traditional American Chruch is the ONLY church that pleases God or that is called to be formed by God.
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 9:31:46 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 615
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
As long as the doctrine is sound we need to pray for them. We must also be very careful when we judge too quickly a plant or new church congregation. Most of them are filled with new converts or the lost. As scripture shows us over and over again. New Chruch often have many problems because the congregation as a "whole" is not as mature as a well established church where a majority of the membership have twenty five years of living the walk under their belt and growth in Jesus.
Yes I also seen in those so-called mature churchs, who have older people. Where they were quite off the wall with their bad attitudes as well.
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 9:37:41 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1986
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
Just curious though... if your friends want traditional worship why don't they go to a church that offers it?
They can't find one in their area. Its hard to find one. I know I spent 4 years looking until I found a nice traditonal church.
My goodness...what part of the country do they live in? Southern California? Seattle?
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 10:56:40 AM
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sue244
Posts: 338
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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I live in Colorado, but you also have to know where to look to find them, and it took me 4 years trying different modes of searching before I found the church I go to now.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 11:27:07 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Yes I also seen in those so-called mature churchs, who have older people. Where they were quite off the wall with their bad attitudes as well.
So true So true. Just the other day I heard a pastor being asked why the new Christians "always cause trouble" in the church. The pastor replied, "The new converts don't make the trouble rather they expose the trouble that existed when they came here."
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RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? - 3/21/2008 1:07:47 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1282
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
notmycity,
I followed your link and read the first few paragraphs. I must say that I disagree with both assertions. If you pay attention to the context of Paul's teaching on giving (1Corinthains 9) you might notice that he is talking about a "free will" offering, not tithing. When it comes to tithing I follow this rule of thumb: if Jesus did it, then so should I. If Jesus commanded it, then I should obey it. In any case, if we take Paul's teaching in 1Corinthians as the standard for tithing, then it is clear that we should be willing to give far more than ten percent because our desire should be to give generously. However, most people use that passage as an excuse to give far less than ten percent.
Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with the OP; just wanted you to know that context is important to understanding the intent of the message.
Mush head,
Please feel free to address this on the “Tithing one-stopper” and we can converse there.
For now let’s just say that tithing is never commanded to the church. See you over in that thread?
Thanks...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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