RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/12/2005 10:10:20 PM)

I also asked Wind this question that only required a "yes or no" answer yet he chose to talk "around" the subject. I will ask you to respond to this question with a yes or no reply also.

quote:

IF someone teaches the doctrine posted below would you believe they were truthfully and accurately teaching the Word of God?

Doctrine;

God created human beings in “God’s class” as “little gods.”

Before the fall, humans had the potential to exercise a “God kind of faith” and could call things into existence. Humans took on Satan’s nature by rebelling against God in the Garden of Eden, thus losing the ability to call things into existence.

In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ became a man, died spiritually (taking Satan’s nature upon Himself), went to hell, was “born again,” and rose from the dead with God's nature.

After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to duplicate the Incarnation in believers so they might fulfill their calling to be little gods.

Those who have had the Incarnation duplicated in them by the Holy Spirit (thus giving them the ability to exercise the “God kind of faith”) should be successful in every area of their lives.

Hardships like indebtedness, illness, and even being left by one’s spouse show lack of faith because these problems should be eliminated by “claiming” God’s promises.



is5512 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/12/2005 10:12:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: “Because his physical death was not enough for the payment of sins there was a another way for sins payment. Jesus put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned].” (Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0402) side 1.)

“It ain’t the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin because if it had been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousands of years before that could have paid that price, it wasn’t physical death. Anybody could do that.” [Kenneth Copeland, www.voiceofwarning.com/realvideo.htm]


If I may ask, what on earth could be the argument against those statements? They merely point out that no "man" had the ability to die for the sins of all. It took Jesus and Jesus alone.

If I may ask, do all these little clips come from some website, or are people who post them actually doing the research themselves and figuring out what is being preached?
I have been following these guys for years, and have not seen so much as one of these wonderful quotes that show up here.

I mean, I check up on my Pastor to make sure he's quoting the Bible correctly. Would anyone here be offended if I verified their claims of what was said by who? Can you show me your sources?



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/12/2005 10:20:25 PM)

The Incarnation by Copeland is pretty famous. It is one of his teaching tapes that is used to learn about his theology.

Gone to find the name of another famous "theology" (choke) teaching tape by him.

Ask questions away. Telling the "truth" is what this thread is all about. Truthful people don't shy away from questions.

What Happened From the Cross to the Throne? This is the other famous "teaching tape" by Copeland. When they make these tapes and put them out on the market it's not hard for one to "prove" what they are teaching.



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/12/2005 10:47:17 PM)

Strong's Number: 5055 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
televw from (5056)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Teleo 8:57,1161
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
tel-eh'-o Verb

Definition
to bring to a close, to finish, to end
passed, finished
to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)
with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command
with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil
to pay
of tribute
"It is finished or paid" John 19:30

King James Word Usage - Total: 26
finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, miscellaneous 3

Notice what the term "finished" means in John 19:30

Compare what Jesus said to what Copeland teaches.

***********

full article on Word Power http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/013/7.73.html

the part speaking to the passage in question:


Perfect Completion

Tetelestai. Occasionally the significance of a verb is found not only in its meaning but in the tense attached to it. And in some cases, English struggles to convey the deeper meaning of the tense. In John 19:30, we read Jesus' final words on the cross: "It is finished."

In Greek, however, this phrase represents only one Greek word, tetelestai, and it is one of the most important things Jesus ever said. The Greek verb teleo means to complete or finish something.

But in this case, the verb is not in the simple past tense, indicating that he is done. John 19:30 uses the perfect tense, which underscores an action that is fully completed and has present-day consequences.

Given the significance of what Jesus has accomplished on the Cross, John therefore uses the perfect tense to emphasize that Jesus has truly and exhaustively finished what the Father sent him to do and that the ongoing effects of his work continue to be with us even today.



lecoop -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 8:16:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Wind it appears that both you and the other poster today on this thread do not "deny" that Copeland is teaching things about the death of Christ that cannot be supported with scripture.

My question to you is the same as it was to the other poster.

God gives us these instructions in 2 John 1

9 Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don't say, "Welcome," to him; 11 for the one who says, "Welcome," to him shares in his evil works.



If you belive kenneth is teaching things that goes beyond what God's inspired word instructs then "why" do you continue to defend him? Do you believe these instructions are for "you" or "us" today or that we can ignore scripture at will?


P31, sorry, I did not ingnore you. I guess I just missed your post. What part of the teaching of Christ gets one born again so that we could say he "has God?" Is it not the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus, and His blood taking away the sins of the whole world? This is what gets people into God and gets God into them. If someone does not remain in this teaching, as Paul said, "there remains no more sacrifice for sin," since Jesus is the only sacrifice. If I understand what you are saying, then no one could get out of a false doctrine such as Jehovah's witness, because they would be going away from the doctrine which was taught, which was of course in error. Here is the verse in question:

quote:

(Young's Literal)
9 every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son;
10 if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!'


You could stretch this verse to take in many of the silly things that are preached from the pulpit today, that are not key gospel scriptures that get people born again. I guess a good example are those people that are confused about the baptism with the HS, and say that unless your receive this you are not born again. Or another denomination I am thinking of that teaches that unless you get baptized in water by their formula, you are not born again. I know that many of these people are born again and living for God, but just confused about minor things. They have never left the doctrine that got them born again, which was acepting with faith the blood of Jesus to remove their sin.

I could stretch this to me. I was raised in the Wesleyan church, that taught (and still teaches) a silly doctrine called "entire sanctification." It is error, plain and simple. However, as a teenager, I believed it and did my best to live up to it. As I got older, I realized that the doctrine was not scriptural, so I "left it." This in no way is what this verse is intending. The only way someone that has been born again and has God on the inside can get God back out (the HS leaves them) is first to become a mature Christian (see Hebrews 6) and then to ask God to leave, or "fall away."

Therefore, teaching or even believing false doctrine that is not part of key salvation scritpures is not going to cause one to lose God. It just makes them look silly to others that don't believe their error.

My final thought is this. I was not there when Jesus died. I don't know where He went, and neither do you. It is not pertinent to anyone's salvation, so I just "let the sleeping dog lie."

I continue to defend him because I know he is born again. There is much fruit in his ministry for anyone to see, if they will take the time to look. It is ok to be fruit inspectors. True love demands that we think the best of a brother in Christ, not the worst.

Verse 7 of the same chapter says:

quote:

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist.


I can assure you that all the preachers in WOF confess that Jesus has come in the flesh. This is a key part of salvation.


Coop



lecoop -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 8:31:51 AM)

You did a great job with "it is finished."

However, God did not delineate just what was meant by this phrase, so we have to guess. What exactly was "finished?" One good answer was that the Law was finally satisfied. Jesus had fulfilled the Law. Another answer could be that Jesus had done all in the natural, in His flesh, that the Father had called Him to do. It would be a stretch to say that "salvation" was finished, because Paul includes the ressurection in his gospel. Our salvation was not totally finished until Jesus entered the throne room in heaven after being risen from the dead. Whether or not He sprinkled His blood there in the heavenlies is up for discussion. Paul hints at it.

Incarnation: Dictionary.com: "A bodily manifestation of a supernatural being." Here is one definition of this word. Does this definition fit a born again believer? Yes. The HS indwells us and in fact He became one with us.

quote:

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


Therefore, I see no reason for anyone to get excited over someone preaching this. However, I would not preach it. There was a big difference between Jesus and us. Jesus, before He took on flesh was part of the Godhead, and the creator of the universe. However, Paul did say that the fulness of the Godhead dwells in us.

Coop



lecoop -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 8:38:13 AM)

quote:

I have also noticed that no WOF supporter appears to use scripture to support their beliefs. Even on the Binn Hinn and Joel Osteen thread no supporters of these folks appear to want to discuss "scripture" our final authority. Rather they want us to rely on their feelings or what they beleive to be true "as truth".


On the contrary, we use scripture as much as anyone. However, many of these verses of scripture are read different ways be different people. For instance, a big part of the WOF movement is physical healing. We use lots of scripture to show that healing is God's will for us. However, those that don't believe it, read these same scritpures differently.

The word "finished" is a great example. Hank Hanegraaff has said many times over the air waves that this shows beyond any doubt that our salvation was conpleted on the cross. Unfortunately, Hank forgot all about the ressurection. Therefore, we cannot be so quick to say that "it is finished" is talking about or salvation.

Coop



Ps103 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 2:09:29 PM)

Wind, a question for you: does God have the right to answer a prayer with "No"?



lecoop -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 2:24:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Wind, a question for you: does God have the right to answer a prayer with "No"?



Please allow me to answer this. God has a right to do anything He wants because He is God. However, God never answers a prayer to a new testament saint with a "no." See

quote:

1 John 5
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.


Here is the catch. If we ask a what we think is a prayer that is outside of His will, He does not even hear it. If we ask in His will, He hears and his answer is always yes.

Coop



figmentPez -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 2:32:12 PM)

quote:

God never answers a prayer to a new testament saint with a "no."


He didn't?

Matthew 20:20-23
20Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21"What is it you want?" he asked.
She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."
22"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?"
"We can," they answered.
23Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

That certainly sounds like a "no" to me.

EDIT: not to mention Paul's thorn from 2Cor 12, regardless of what you think the thorn was, Paul pleaded with the Lord to remove it, and the Lord said NO.



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 2:46:17 PM)

Coop,

You make me very sad in what your reply is. I can't go into great detail because I have a lesson to prepare and teach tonight and I also have not prayed over your post enough for the Holy Spirit to lead me to approprate scripture to show you the flaws in your line of reasoning that false teachings (adding to or taking away from scripture) can lie next to truth as long as it's not a matter of salvation.

Believe it or not when you do this it is going to effect the gospel message.

I hope lw9 or another of these great bible defenders will hear a word from the Lord and God will take them to "just" the right scripture to show you that never once did Paul or Jesus or any of the Apsotles approve of traditions of men being taught beside God with anysort of authority.

One famous WOF verse that I often find the preaches "misquotes" is John 15:16. The will say something to the effect of Jesus said, "Whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

This is not a "salvation" matter directly but it is indirectly. Why? Because it's a misrepresentation of "who God is".

The entire verse reads like this,

Jesus said, You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you THAT YOU SHOULD GO AND BEAR FRUIT (jesus gaves us this mission to accomplish) and that your FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give it to you.

Quoting the last part of the passage without explaining the first part is simply a falsehood. A misrepresentaion of prayer, God and our mission.

(PS Coop, It would help your case if instead you would stop comparing one religious group or teacher to another and would compare the WOF teachings to scripture. Most of us dismiss those other types of arguments. We want to compare doctrine to the pure milk of the word)



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 2:55:24 PM)

quote:

On the contrary, we use scripture as much as anyone.


I am going to say again that Joel Osteen does not. He not only does not use scripture to support most of his teachings when he "does" use it I have found that he often will only quote a "part" of a verse and leave the "most" important part of the "sentence" off. Or he will use a passage pulled completely out of context to support his case but if you read on down the rest of the passage you find that it contradicts the way he used it. For example he gave a passage to show that our words have power. But in the very next passage you find that it was the Will of God that what occured happened. No mention what so ever that the actions or words of the "human" in the story mattered at all. None.

(don't want to hi-jack this thread you can read all about his "misuse" of scripture in the JO thread)



lw9 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 3:04:30 PM)

Dear lecoop:

quote:

However, God did not delineate just what was meant by this phrase, so we have to guess. What exactly was "finished?" "I don't know where He went, and neither do you. "


The Bible has been specific as to what happened and when. The problem lies in the blatant contradiction of WOF teachings of those specifics. These are key salvational doctrinal points which proclaim what Jesus did and who Jesus is [sinless, savior who completely atoned, perfect sacrifice, eternally living spirit]. When these key doctrines are distorted and twisted - just as in Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses - then there is a different Jesus Christ being presented and not the One of the Holy Bible. Only the Jesus Christ as described in the Holy Bible holds salvation for us. This is EXACTLY why the Bible warns over and over about false christs and false teachings. I understand that you may continue to defend WOF, fair enough, but the differences are plain to see for all who will see them.

The Bible: Jesus' shed blood atoned for sin
Heb 9:12 but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Jn 1:7 and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 Pet 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Rev 1:5 To Him [Jesus] who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood,

WOF: Jesus' shed blood did not atone for sin
“...When His blood poured out, it did not atone. It did away with the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us.” (Kenneth Copeland, Form letter, March 12, 1979 )

“Because his physical death was not enough for the payment of sins there was a another way for sins payment. Jesus put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned].” (Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0402) side 1.)

The Bible: Jesus died physically, not spiritually
Heb 10:19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh…

WOF: Jesus died physically and spiritually
And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died.” (Kenneth Hagin, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)

“He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death.” (Kenneth Hagin, How Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)

The Bible: Jesus was sinless
1 Jn 3:5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet was without sin.

2 Cor 5:21 God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Pet 2:22 He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth.

WOF: Jesus became a sinner
“Because his physical death was not enough for the payment of sins there was a another way for sins payment. Jesus put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned].” (Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0402) side 1.)

“He’s got to look like a sinner. Or they’re not going to receive Him into hell, you’ve got to be a sinner. He’s got to somehow look like that serpent on that stick in Moses’ day. He’s got to look like a serpent in order to be taken in. And Jesus who had never sinned, made an exchange with His covenant partner. He says “Let Me wear your coat of sin. It’ll make Me look like a sinner. I’ve never sinned, but if I can put your coat of sin on, when I get back I’m going to give you my coat of righteousness. So The bible says that He who had not sinned was made sin. (Creflo Dollar, Our Equality with God Through Righteousness 1/21/2001)

“Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by becoming one in nature with him. You say, 'What did you say? What blasphemy is this?' No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin. Sin is the nature of hell. Sin is what made Satan...It was sin that made Satan. Jesus said, 'I'll be sin! I'll go to the lowest place! I'll go to the origin of it! I won't just take part in it, I'll be the totality of it!' “ (Benny Hinn, TBN, 12/15/90 )

The Bible: Jesus descended and fulfilled the promise of heaven for OT believers
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

WOF: Jesus was dragged into hell and tortured by demons
“He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer.” (Kenneth Copeland, “The Price of It All,” 3.)

“When Jesus was in the pit of hell. in that terrible torment, no doubt the Devil and his emissaries gathered around to see the annihilation of God's Son. But in the corridors of hell, there came a great voice from heaven: 'Turn Him Loose! He's there illegally!' And all of hell became paralyzed.” (Charles Capp, Authority in Three Worlds, pg 143 )

quote:

"I can assure you that all the preachers in WOF confess that Jesus has come in the flesh. This is a key part of salvation.


Creflo Dollar, WOF teacher: Jesus came as a man but worked His way into Godhood:
"A voice came from heaven which said ‘Thou art my beloved Son’. He said you my Son now. No other time, God didn’t say this no other time until he matured. Until he came into his maturity and after 30 years of maturing, after 30 years of growing, after 30 years of being perfected, then God Almighty confirmed His sonship and anoints Him. Jesus came as a man, that’s why it was legal to anoint Him. God didn’t need anointing, He is anointing. Jesus came as a man and at age 30 God is now getting ready to demonstrate to us and give us an example of what a man with the anointing can do." [Jesus' growth into Sonship, http://interactive.creflodollarministries.org/broadcasts/archives2002_t.asp?site=CDM]

The Bible: Jesus came as God in the flesh
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I'm not asking anyone to rely on my word. I totally encourage and strongly recommend that folks check it out for themselves - whether it's through WOF tapes, books, pamphlets, etc - and compare them to the Bible.



Ps103 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 3:13:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lecoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Wind, a question for you: does God have the right to answer a prayer with "No"?



Please allow me to answer this. God has a right to do anything He wants because He is God. However, God never answers a prayer to a new testament saint with a "no." See

quote:

1 John 5
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.


Here is the catch. If we ask a what we think is a prayer that is outside of His will, He does not even hear it. If we ask in His will, He hears and his answer is always yes.

Coop


Coop, you didn't extend the bolding far enough, so I italicized the rest[;)]



rapturetruth -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 7:52:41 PM)

My answer by experience with followers of WOF is:
Sound the alarm= APOSTASY is here NOW and is moving across the board in christianity, corrupting any truth that is left standing and true bible teaching [sound] is slowly diminishing or will do so soon and anyone standing up for what's true will look like fools to some and there will be a lot of false teachers called into account on judgement day and people will likely see them for what they are right then--
I looked for this thread on the site because this whole thing burdens and brings me to tears --
Those asleep WAKE up!! and be grounded in the scriptures alone first and work hard in our little study times to strive to know scriptures..
This subject is NOT discussed enough on the internet and needs urgent attention as also is said in the book of JUDE[NT]...
Satan is seducing people to attack the bible even in churches or to teach things in its place= 1st Timothy 4= and chapter 6 and others there..



thewindsup -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 8:54:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Wind, a question for you: does God have the right to answer a prayer with "No"?


Yes, if it is not a prayer according to His will. But, let me ask you this question. Does God lie? Would He say, "by His stripes we were healed" if it wasnt true? or for that matter any of the other promises in the Word? God loves to honor His Word, because it is His perfect nature. You act as if it is somehow wrong to believe God will do what He said He would do.



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 9:31:55 PM)

ALL followers of Christ are called to the vocation of suffering for His name sake. The student is not above the teacher.

1 Peter 2:13-25

13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-- 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. 18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. 19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 "Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; 23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Philippians 1

27 Just one thing: live your life in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or am absent, I will hear about you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, working side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28 not being frightened in any way by your opponents. This is evidence of their destruction, but of your deliverance--and this is from God. 29 For it has been given to you on Christ's behalf not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him, 30 having the same struggle that you saw I had and now hear about me.




"I will show him how much he MUST SUFFER FOR MY NAME. " Acts 9

"The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictionS await me." Acts 20:23



thewindsup -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 9:40:07 PM)

The Bible never tells us sickness is suffering for Jesus and as far as I know Jesus never suffered sickness either??? The Bible refers to suffering persecution for our faith as did Jesus.



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 9:49:52 PM)

Timothy has a stomach problem that Paul perscribed wine for.



thewindsup -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 9:53:20 PM)

p31W, talk about a stretch. Moses allowed the children of Isreal to divorce too, even though the Word says that wasnt God's plan.



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 9:57:48 PM)

quote:

The Bible never tells us sickness is suffering for Jesus and as far as I know Jesus never suffered sickness either??? The Bible refers to suffering persecution for our faith as did Jesus.


Nor does the bible "deny" that sickness is part of suffering for Christ. Nor does the bible in any way deny that Christ ever suffered sickenss. Unless you can find scripture to support to show me that God's will does not include the ministry or vocation of suffering for His Glory in the area of physical health I will not pass judgment on anyone. Instead I will pray for His will to be accomplished and for Him to be glorified. I will pray for the sick person to be able to endure and grow in their faith and to be able to praise God in their suffering.

What I can probably "guess" is that when Paul had the flesh torn off of his back five times each of the five times his body reacted in an normal way and he ran a fever. It probably took him months to heal each time the scares were torn back open. Because of the policy of not worrying about sanitation we can make a resonable assumption that his back would become infected delaying even longer the healing time.

Paul also went without food and sleep often. Mean he probably had a higher probablity to catch various things. As far as we know the thron in his side was a sickness. It could have been his back that has a torn out section that would not heal. We don't know. God does not give me the right to build any sort of major "doctrine" around what he does not instruct me in. That's not what a servant is called to do.

The last thing we want to do is act as the Pharasees who equated health and wealth to God's blessings. Sickness and poverty to God's wrath or curse. Jesus pretty much kicked this type of man made theology in the back side pretty quickly and often in his ministry. He exposed the false "external" religion of these folks and pointed to the true "internal" religion where a man's heart is to have the sin cut away.



Ps103 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 10:03:16 PM)

Paul also prayed three times for his "thorn" to be removed, yet God left it, as His plans were more important than Paul's getting the healing he wanted.

"My strength is made perfect in weakness."

How do you interpret that, Wind?



P31W -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 10:08:31 PM)

][/quote]p31W, talk about a stretch. Moses allowed the children of Isreal to divorce too, even though the Word says that wasnt God's plan. [/quote]

Not a stretch at all. Are you saying that sin in Timothy's life caused the stomach problems and Paul was silent on the sin and gave a superficial reply? Paul was a pretty bold fellow and would have had no problem at all telling Timothy that if he would remove the sin in his life and "proclaim" healing then he WOULD be healed. But Paul did not do that.......far from it.....he did not even "imply" such as this.

That does not line up with the "inspired word of God" and what Paul tell us is the value of the Bible. If Timothy's problem was caused by sin then God would have made SURE we knew that just as he made SURE we understood that Divorce was not part of his plan.

God does not lie. He cannot lie nor does he "misguide" us by giving us misleading instructions. We serve a honest trustworthy God.



lw9 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 10:16:00 PM)

WOF doesn't just claim freedom from sickness, it claims freedom from poverty and an expectation of wealth. Historically, Christians have suffered persecution by having all of their possessions, land, and homes taken and being imprisoned/tortured/killed. Guess they weren't 'real' Christians with the 'right' kind of faith, eh? How sad for them that their testimonies are trampled on in this way.

Questions: Jan Crouch had cancer recently. If she was living according to a faith which claims freedom from afflictions, sickness, and disease - and she being one of the foremost proponents and followers - why did she get cancer? Why did she have to have surgery since WOF claims miraculous healings through any one of it's high profile teachers? Certainly they could have found one WOF prophet to do the job. What was the official WOF excuse for her having cancer while they blast their followers with any sickness as being 'weak in faith' or having demons?

How true are the claims of WOF when it comes to real-life situations? The conclusion lies with the very real example of Jan Crouch.



Eutychus -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (11/13/2005 10:16:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Paul also prayed three times for his "thorn" to be removed, yet God left it, as His plans were more important than Paul's getting the healing he wanted.

"My strength is made perfect in weakness."

How do you interpret that, Wind?

I heard with my own ears Kenneth Copeland interpret that passage to reveal that Paul was healed completely.

I don't have Copeland's magic decoder ring so I'm still of the opinion as the rest of Christendom that Paul never was given healing but the grace to live with it and to bring God glory through it.



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