RE: Are you saved but not baptized?

RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 3:36:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman What's "faith only" have to do with this? Quite right. [:)] I was using "faith only" as a kind of shorthand phrase to indicate the doctrine that espouses that baptism in water is irrelevant and unnecessary, and that salvation is the same for those saved prior to Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and ascension as it is for us. I don't think water baptism is either irrelevant or unnecessary. Christ instituted this sign; and, as with all His commandments they should be obeyed just as Israel was commanded to obey all their ceremonial commands. But, it is an action we take; and, any action we take can never save. It is the same mistake Israel made with regard to the sign of circumcision. There was no "effect" from circumcision; it simply was the shadow or sign pointing to the substance or fact that we must have our sins cut away. "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,.." Col 2:11 As for salvation before and after Christ's Incarnation, all the biblical evidence has put that question to rest. All OT believers were indwelled by the Holy Spirit; otherwise, they wouldn't be believers.

kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 4:23:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JesKlu Actually kelman, the verse you quoted is refering to water baptism. The word "buried" relates to death. Those who become saved are baptized(washed) into Christ's death. That is, when Christ paid for their sins by enduring hell on their behalf, it is as if these individuals were "enduring hell". That is what Col 2 is speaking about - not water. Jesus was baptized when He went to the cross and the sins He carried were washed away. Water baptism is simply the shadow which points to the cleansing provided by Christ on the cross. He provided eternal "cleansing" for all those who put their trust in Him as their sinbearer. Col 2:11-12 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." quote: If you say water baptism is unnecessary, you are going against these scriptures. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. In fact, it has no bearing on it one way or the other. Except, if one was to refuse water baptism he must seriously question "why" since it is a command of God. quote: Matthew 28:18-20 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Sounds like water baptism to me. If we read the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-16, it helps us to know if "water" or "spirit" baptism is in veiw. "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." The teaching and the preaching are to take place worldwide so that as many as possible will hear the Gospel. Of those who hear, there will be some who will believe and be baptized. The fact that they have believed and the fact that they were baptized(their sins were washed away) are the result of the action of God working in their lives. Therefore, the command of Mat 28:19 effectively declares that we are to teach the Word of God so that through the Word there will be those who will be baptized(that is, their sins will be washed away) - they become saved - baptized in the Holy Spirit. So, water baptism is not in view because it is simply a sign or shadow of the action that God has performed or hopefully will perform. It should be evident that no physical act such as water baptism can ever bring anyone into an intimate union with the Triune God as described in Mat 28:19 "baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," quote: Acts 2:38-39 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." Doesn't seem water baptism is unnescessary. Act 2:38 indicates that we are to repent and be baptized. Repentence is a gift from God (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2Timothy 2:25). Baptism for the remission of our sins is God's act as He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit; that is, He cleanses us of our sins. When we read the word "baptize" in the Bible, we ordinarily must first think of it as a word that identifies with the action of God in washing away our sins. I realize this principle is contrary to what many commonly think, nonetheless, it is what Scripture teaches. There are many commands to be water baptized; however, when God commands the unbeliever to be baptized as He does in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, the command becomes synonymous with the command to become saved, and only God can save. Only He can wash away sins. The command to be baptized in the Spirit is an action only God can do. 1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. We are baptized, that is, washed of our sins when we become sved. The cleansing of our sins places us into the body of believers which God also speaks of as being the body of Christ. quote: There is the receiving of the Holy Spirit after baptism, but there is no such thing as "Baptized in the Spirit." That is a Pentecostal invention in the last 100 years. No where in Church History is that ever taught. The theory of some type of "second" blessing has no scriptural support. As for the term "baptized in the Spirit" it is perfectly scriptural. The Greek word en can be translated in, by or with. A problem may occur depending on what one teaches the term actually means. Hopefully, though, you are not denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and think it too a "Pentecostal invention"? At the moment of salvation, our sins are washed away; we are born from above; we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; we are given faith; we are given repentance; and, we are filled with the Spirit. And, it is because we are filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation, we are also qualified and mandated by God to bring the Gospel to the world. None of this can be said to happen in water baptism since that is an action we take.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 7:41:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman I don't think water baptism is either irrelevant or unnecessary. Christ instituted this sign; and, as with all His commandments they should be obeyed just as Israel was commanded to obey all their ceremonial commands. But, it is an action we take; and, any action we take can never save. Well, color me shocked. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif] I was certain, based on everything you said, that you thought baptism was neither relevant nor necessary. Apparently I'm missing something in your posting and I'm sorry I'm not astute enough to pick up on it.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 7:47:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. In fact, it has no bearing on it one way or the other. Except, if one was to refuse water baptism he must seriously question "why" since it is a command of God. See, this is the kind of statement I was referring to in my previous post. There is nothing in this statement that tells me that baptism is either relevant or necessary. In fact, just the opposite. Apparently, a person can refuse baptism, be seriously questioned as to "why," but that as no bearing whatsoever on their salvation. If that doesn't make baptism irrelevant and unnecessary, then I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 7:54:41 AM)
quote: When we read the word "baptize" in the Bible, we ordinarily must first think of it as a word that identifies with the action of God in washing away our sins. I realize this principle is contrary to what many commonly think, nonetheless, it is what Scripture teaches. I agree with this statement. When I read the word "baptize" in the Bible I do think of it as a word that identifies the action of God in washing away or sins. However, I also, can't divorce that meaning from the basic meaning of the word, which is to immerse something in water. That's why I believe God performs His action of washing away our sins when we are baptized in water. I don't believe there's any other time mentioned in scripture when this could possibly happen.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 7:57:11 AM)
quote: At the moment of salvation, our sins are washed away; we are born from above; we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; we are given faith; we are given repentance; and, we are filled with the Spirit. And, it is because we are filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation, we are also qualified and mandated by God to bring the Gospel to the world. None of this can be said to happen in water baptism since that is an action we take. I agree with this, too, except for the last sentence. Are you actually saying that it's impossible for God to work His works of salvation in water baptism because it's an action we take, even though it's an action He commanded we take? If that's what you're saying, I'm astounded. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

Heavendweller -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/11/2008 11:51:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman I don't think water baptism is either irrelevant or unnecessary. Christ instituted this sign; and, as with all His commandments they should be obeyed just as Israel was commanded to obey all their ceremonial commands. But, it is an action we take; and, any action we take can never save. Kelman, So how does salvation occur - by osmosis? Does God just "zap" us one day and voila- we're saved? I ask because many years ago when I first heard the gospel message, I recall responding to that gospel message. My response was something I did. I recall the pastor saying a particular verse from Romans which goes like this, "if you confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." The next verse goes on to explain, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and confesses with his lips and so is saved." Confessing certainly sounds like some kind of action. In fact, if the pastor preaching the gospel message had said, "There's nothing you need to do, no action that needs to be taken when you hear this gospel message, I would have left and done.....absolutely nothing. And nothing would have occured. I had to hear the message and I had to respond. Sounds like some kind of action to me. Heavendweller

kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 5:13:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman I don't think water baptism is either irrelevant or unnecessary. Christ instituted this sign; and, as with all His commandments they should be obeyed just as Israel was commanded to obey all their ceremonial commands. But, it is an action we take; and, any action we take can never save. Well, color me shocked. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif] I was certain, based on everything you said, that you thought baptism was neither relevant nor necessary. Apparently I'm missing something in your posting and I'm sorry I'm not astute enough to pick up on it. That's always the risk you run when defending a position. My position is that water baptism is a sign - nothing more. But, it is a sign God commanded just as He commanded the sign of circumcision so it must be obeyed. quote: quote: Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. In fact, it has no bearing on it one way or the other. Except, if one was to refuse water baptism he must seriously question "why" since it is a command of God. See, this is the kind of statement I was referring to in my previous post. There is nothing in this statement that tells me that baptism is either relevant or necessary. In fact, just the opposite. Apparently, a person can refuse baptism, be seriously questioned as to "why," but that as no bearing whatsoever on their salvation. If that doesn't make baptism irrelevant and unnecessary, then I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. You are misunderstanding. I meant if a person refused to be water baptized he must seriously question "why" because it is a command of God. We are told to examine ourselves to see if "we are in the faith". Can this person who has refused the command of water baptism say that he is truly saved - that he is "in the faith"? A child of God does not disregard or ignore God's commandments....that's what I meant.

kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 5:17:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: When we read the word "baptize" in the Bible, we ordinarily must first think of it as a word that identifies with the action of God in washing away our sins. I realize this principle is contrary to what many commonly think, nonetheless, it is what Scripture teaches. I agree with this statement. When I read the word "baptize" in the Bible I do think of it as a word that identifies the action of God in washing away or sins. Except that water baptism is our action - not God's. God washes away our sins when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is an action God takes - not us. And, we know from Scripture this takes place apart from water baptism. quote: However, I also, can't divorce that meaning from the basic meaning of the word, which is to immerse something in water. We find that baptizo, baptismos and baptisma are usually translated as "baptize" or "baptism"; but, also are translated as "wash" or "cleanse". For example, we find this in Mark 7:4; Luke 11:38; Hebrews 9:10. Therefore, these passages show us that in the Bible "baptize" means to wash, cleanse or purify. So, it is not correct to say that these words mean "to immerse". quote: That's why I believe God performs His action of washing away our sins when we are baptized in water. I don't believe there's any other time mentioned in scripture when this could possibly happen. Actually, regeneration happens in the Holy Spirit's own good time. We see precisely that in John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." In 1Peter 3:21, we see that it is not the figure, shadow or antitype of "water" which can only remove dirt from our bodies; but, the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God. That is, our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 5:19:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: At the moment of salvation, our sins are washed away; we are born from above; we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; we are given faith; we are given repentance; and, we are filled with the Spirit. And, it is because we are filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation, we are also qualified and mandated by God to bring the Gospel to the world. None of this can be said to happen in water baptism since that is an action we take. I agree with this, too, except for the last sentence. Are you actually saying that it's impossible for God to work His works of salvation in water baptism because it's an action we take, even though it's an action He commanded we take? If that's what you're saying, I'm astounded. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif] Actually, I'm astounded you think that an action you take can cleanse you of sins :) Obviously, nothing is impossible with God. But, at the moment, that is not the issue. I think John 3:8 makes the point perfectly that the Holy Spirit goes when and where He please and we do not know. This is the action of God which He does at a particular moment in time; and, of which we are actually unaware.

kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 5:22:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Heavendweller quote: ORIGINAL: kelman I don't think water baptism is either irrelevant or unnecessary. Christ instituted this sign; and, as with all His commandments they should be obeyed just as Israel was commanded to obey all their ceremonial commands. But, it is an action we take; and, any action we take can never save. Kelman, So how does salvation occur - by osmosis? Does God just "zap" us one day and voila- we're saved? According to Scripture, God draws those who are to be saved. And, we find the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration when and where He pleases(John 3:8). quote: I ask because many years ago when I first heard the gospel message, I recall responding to that gospel message. My response was something I did. I recall the pastor saying a particular verse from Romans which goes like this, "if you confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." The next verse goes on to explain, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and confesses with his lips and so is saved." People can "confess" till they're blue in the face - that won't save them. It doesn't help either when they have a wrong understanding of the word "confess". For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be.

FreeGrace -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 7:03:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman As for salvation before and after Christ's Incarnation, all the biblical evidence has put that question to rest. All OT believers were indwelled by the Holy Spirit; otherwise, they wouldn't be believers. kelman, what do you do with John 7:38-39, then? "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive." Or, John 20:22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." Jesus said this to His disciples after His resurrection. These verses clearly indicate that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not universal in OT believers.

FreeGrace -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 7:07:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be. Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live." Jn 5:25. Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 8:23:30 AM)
quote: Actually, I'm astounded you think that an action you take can cleanse you of sins :) Actually I'm not saying that my action of being baptized is what cleanses me of my sin. What I am saying is that it is the action that God takes when I am baptized that cleanses me from my sin.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 8:51:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman We find that baptizo, baptismos and baptisma are usually translated as "baptize" or "baptism"; but, also are translated as "wash" or "cleanse". For example, we find this in Mark 7:4; Luke 11:38; Hebrews 9:10. Therefore, these passages show us that in the Bible "baptize" means to wash, cleanse or purify. So, it is not correct to say that these words mean "to immerse". It may be different in other versions but in the NASB "baptizo" is translated "wash" once (Luke 11:38); the word "baptismos" only appears three times in scripture and is translated washing (1) and washings (2); and the word "baptisma" is always translated "baptism." So, I think four instances is hardly a mandate for not understanding baptism to inherently mean immerse. Besides how do you wash something or cleanse something without getting in completely wet? Seems to me that "immerse" is even inherent in the words "wash" and "cleanse." Thayer's Lexicon gives the first two meanings of "baptizo" as follows: 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge; 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 11:49:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman In 1Peter 3:21, we see that it is not the figure, shadow or antitype of "water" which can only remove dirt from our bodies; but, the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God. That is, our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Next to Mark 16:16 I think this is the most straightforward and unequivocal statement in the New Testament concerning the relationship between baptism and salvation. Some have, though, through careless reading, interpreted this verse to mean that baptism itself is the figure or symbol that stands for some other reality. Following the prevalent theology of the day, they conclude that baptism thus symbolizes the moment of salvation that has already occurred. But, as far as I can tell, this is just the opposite of what Peter is actually saying. The two things being compared are the flood of Noah's time and baptism. The relation between them is that of type and antitype. Therefore, the flood is the preceding type or figure, and baptism is the reality to which it points. So, baptism isn't the symbol but the reality itself, and that reality is the fact that salvation occurs simultaneously with baptism (or as Peter says it, "baptism doth also now save us.")

FreeGrace -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 12:53:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman In 1Peter 3:21, we see that it is not the figure, shadow or antitype of "water" which can only remove dirt from our bodies; but, the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God. That is, our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Next to Mark 16:16 I think this is the most straightforward and unequivocal statement in the New Testament concerning the relationship between baptism and salvation. Some have, though, through careless reading, interpreted this verse to mean that baptism itself is the figure or symbol that stands for some other reality. Following the prevalent theology of the day, they conclude that baptism thus symbolizes the moment of salvation that has already occurred. But, as far as I can tell, this is just the opposite of what Peter is actually saying. The two things being compared are the flood of Noah's time and baptism. The relation between them is that of type and antitype. Therefore, the flood is the preceding type or figure, and baptism is the reality to which it points. So, baptism isn't the symbol but the reality itself, and that reality is the fact that salvation occurs simultaneously with baptism (or as Peter says it, "baptism doth also now save us.") Peter was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. This is clear because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh (by water). If he hadn't said that, you would have some support. But because he DID say that, he was eliminating water from the baptism he was referring to.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 1:05:35 PM)
quote: Peter was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. This is clear because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh (by water). If he hadn't said that, you would have some support. But because he DID say that, he was eliminating water from the baptism he was referring to. If what you say is true, there was no water in Noah's flood either. [8D] Peter is comparing baptism to the flood precisely because he is talking about water baptism, not because he's eliminating water from baptism. What he's saying is that water baptism doesn't make us physically clean, it makes us spiritually clean. That's why he said "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." He wasn't trying to eliminate water from baptism at all. [:)]

FreeGrace -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 1:11:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: Peter was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. This is clear because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh (by water). If he hadn't said that, you would have some support. But because he DID say that, he was eliminating water from the baptism he was referring to. If what you say is true, there was no water in Noah's flood either. Was Noah saved BY water or FROM water? I rest my case. The point is that the water didn't save him, just as neither does water baptism save us. Only if the water saved Noah would you have a point, but you don't. quote: [8D] Peter is comparing baptism to the flood precisely because he is talking about water baptism, not because he's eliminating water from baptism.[/quoet] If you want to ignore the part about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh", that is your right and freedom. When a dirty body is immersed in water, dirt is removed from the flesh. Peter is very clearly NOT speaking of water baptism. I think he was writing this especially for you. [:)]

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 1:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace Was Noah saved BY water or FROM water? I rest my case. The point is that the water didn't save him, just as neither does water baptism save us. Only if the water saved Noah would you have a point, but you don't. Noah was saved FROM death BY water, yes. So, in a sense the water did save him, but not the water itself (he still had to have the ark). However, you are correct that the water is not what saves us in baptism and I have never said it does. Only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 Peter is comparing baptism to the flood precisely because he is talking about water baptism, not because he's eliminating water from baptism. If you want to ignore the part about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh", that is your right and freedom. When a dirty body is immersed in water, dirt is removed from the flesh. Peter is very clearly NOT speaking of water baptism. I think he was writing this especially for you. What I said was, "What he's saying is that water baptism doesn't make us physically clean, it makes us spiritually clean. That's why he said "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." I don't know how that's ignoring the part about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." He is absolutely referring baptism in water as the time when we become spiritually clean, as opposed to a bath when we become physically clean.

FreeGrace -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 1:42:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace Was Noah saved BY water or FROM water? I rest my case. The point is that the water didn't save him, just as neither does water baptism save us. Only if the water saved Noah would you have a point, but you don't. Noah was saved FROM death BY water, yes. So, in a sense the water did save him, but not the water itself (he still had to have the ark). I think you are quite confused. He was saved FROM water, which killed everyone else and all the animals on the earth. The water was given to kill mankind and wipe him off the face of the earth, which it did quite well. If Noah hadn't been in the ark, he would have died IN THE WATER. So I strongly disagree with your opinion. No water saved him. It was meant to kill people, which it did. Noah was saved FROM the water. Your analysis fails reality. [quoe] However, you are correct that the water is not what saves us in baptism and I have never said it does. Only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't. That is precisely why I disagree with your position. We are saved by faith apart from anything else. Water baptism is a ritual only, to demonstrate spiritual issues. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 Peter is comparing baptism to the flood precisely because he is talking about water baptism, not because he's eliminating water from baptism. If you want to ignore the part about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh", that is your right and freedom. When a dirty body is immersed in water, dirt is removed from the flesh. Peter is very clearly NOT speaking of water baptism. I think he was writing this especially for you. What I said was, "What he's saying is that water baptism doesn't make us physically clean, it makes us spiritually clean. That is precisely where you are in error. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us "clean" when He regenerates us. quote: That's why he said "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." I don't know how that's ignoring the part about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." He is absolutely referring baptism in water as the time when we become spiritually clean, as opposed to a bath when we become physically clean. Then our faith is not the means of our regeneration nor forgiveness then. That is not taught in the Bible. I really cannot understand why you can't see the phrase about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" would be a clarification that the baptism he is speaking of is not the water kind. It is the Spirit kind. We are cleansed by the Spirit at the moment of faith. He doesn't wait until water baptism occurs. That just makes no sense. In John 5:24 Jesus made clear that we have eternal life the moment we believe and have passed from (spiritual) death to (spiritual) life. There is no mention of water baptism there.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 2:38:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 However, you are correct that the water is not what saves us in baptism and I have never said it does. Only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't. That is precisely why I disagree with your position. We are saved by faith apart from anything else. Water baptism is a ritual only, to demonstrate spiritual issues. Wow!! I say, "only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't," and you say, "that is precisely why I disagree with your position." I guess I must be missing something because I was certain you would agree with me on that.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 2:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 What I said was, "What he's saying is that water baptism doesn't make us physically clean, it makes us spiritually clean. That is precisely where you are in error. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us "clean" when He regenerates us. How am I in error? I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I'm just not saying it with the same words. I agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit who makes us clean when He regenerates us. You are certainly NOT in error in saying that. [:)]

Heavendweller -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 4:31:46 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: kelman For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be. FreeGrace: "Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live[." Jn 5:25. Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live." Just before this verse we read Jn 5:24 in which Jesus says, "He who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." I stress the words "hear" and "believe" because in so many places in Scripture these two concepts are connected. Further on in the 10th ch. of Romans St. Paul says, "But how are men to call upon him in who they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? (v.14) So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." (v.17) What would be the point in a preacher if unregenerated man is unable to hear and respond? There are many, many Christians who can witness to a time when they heard the Word of God preached to them, and they truly believed what the living and active Word of the Lord said, and they responded by repenting and receiving Christ's message. I am one of those people. It was not some empty, lifeless confession that I made as some on these forums might think. Having never heard the Word of God being raised in an atheist/agnostic home, when I did hear such beautiful words of life, I responded to the gospel message. The Lord Jesus was calling me and I ran to Him with open arms. But some action had to take place. I wasn't just zapped by the Spirit of God dragging and kicking against my will, without knowing what had happened to me. FreeGrace, this is one of those times when I actually agree with you. [;)] Heavendweller

greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (5/12/2008 4:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Heavendweller FreeGrace, this is one of those times when I actually agree with you.[;)] For what its worth, me too! [:D]

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