RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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MrFribbles -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (7/27/2008 10:35:25 PM)

quote:

Who was told they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit and where?


Acts 11:16.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (7/27/2008 11:16:34 PM)

The term "baptized in the Spirit" occurs only seven times in Scripture. Four of them are in the gospels and are parallel reports of John's announcement of the Messiah. Two more are in the book of Acts and are repetitive of this original statement by John (Acts 1:5; 11:16). The seventh occurance is in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and it says ALL Christians have been baptized in the Spirit.

That the saving work of the Spirit should be called a baptism is certainly appropriate, but in a sense it is quite incidental. The important point, prior to Pentecost, was that the Messiah would come and give us the Holy Spirit as a regenerating, indwelling presence. Whether this bestowing of the Spirit is called baptism or something else is not the main point. John's main point in calling it the baptism of the Holy Spirit was to call attention to the vast difference between himself and the coming Messiah. Jesus Himself put the same promise in different terms. He spoke to the woman at the well about drinking the gift of living water (John 4:10, 14). Jesus uses the same imagery in John 7:37-38.

Therefore, whether we call it the baptism of the Spirit or drinking the living water, it is simply receiving the regenerating, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (7/28/2008 9:49:17 PM)

I think some of the confusion happens when we assume that "being filled with the Holy Spirit" is the same as "being baptized with the Holy Spirit".
According to the studies I have done I am not led to believe they are synonymous.



MrFribbles -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (7/28/2008 9:57:49 PM)

quote:

According to the studies I have done I am not led to believe they are synonymous.


Quite right. However, since "Filled with the Spirit" occurs only once, and not in connection with a discussion on salvation, I'm not sure how it applies here?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (7/28/2008 10:53:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

I think some of the confusion happens when we assume that "being filled with the Holy Spirit" is the same as "being baptized with the Holy Spirit".
According to the studies I have done I am not led to believe they are synonymous.

I believe that being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a figurative way of saying being filled with the Holy Spirit. I don't believe there's two separate, distinct events. They're both the same event described in different ways.



belong2Him -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/5/2008 9:36:48 AM)

hey people. :) here are some early christian beliefs on baptism. these aren't up for debate, though. just wanting to share. enjoy. :)

"Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water. . . . We indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement. However, we come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and the trust of Jesus in our spirit." Barnabas (c. 70-130).

"I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descend into the water and received remission of our former sins." Hermas (c. 150)

"Before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water. They descend into the water dead, and they arise alive." Hermas (c. 150)

"In order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe. . . .And in the name of Jesus Christ. . . .and in the name of the Holy Spirit." Justin Martyr (c. 160)

"We who have approached God through Him have received, not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism by God's mercy, since we were sinners. And all men alike may obtain it." Justin Martyr (c. 160)

"But there is no other [way] than this: to become acquainted with this Christ; to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives." Justin Martyr (c. 160)

"Christ has redeemed us by being crucified on the tree and by purifying us with water." Justin Martyr (c. 160)

"The things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also could be a sign of men being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and bath of regeneration -- as many as come to the truth and are born again." Theophilus (c. 180)

"When we come to refute them [the Gnostics], we will show in its proper place that this class of men have been instigated by satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God. Thus, they have renounced the whole faith. . . . For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins." Irenaeus (c. 180)

"But there are some of them [Gnostics] who assert that it is unnecessary to bring persons to the water. Rather, they mix oil and water together, and they place this mixture on the heads of those who are to be initiated. . . . This they maintain to be the redemption. . . ." Irenaeus (c. 180)

con't...



belong2Him -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/5/2008 9:37:54 AM)

"When [do we bear] the image of the heavenly? Doubtless when he says, 'You have been washed,' believing in the name of the Lord, and receiving His Spirit." Irenaeus (c. 180)

"[Scripture] says, 'And he dipped himself seven times in the Jordan'. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized. Rather, this was a symbol for us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, just as the Lord has declared: 'Unless a man is born again through water and the Spirit, he will not enter into the kingdom of heaven'." Irenaeus (c. 180)

"Being baptized, we are illuminated. Illuminated, we become sons. . . . This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted. Illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"And he who has just been regenerated -- as the name necessarily indicates -- and has been enlightened, is immediately delivered from darkness, and instantly receives the light. . . . Thus also, we who are baptized, having wiped off the sins that obscure the light of the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light, by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"Our transgressions were taken away by one Poeonian medicine, the baptism of the Word. We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"In the same way, therefore, we also repent of our sins, renounce our iniquities, and are purified, by baptism. Thereby, we speed back to the eternal light as children of the Father." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"John prophesied up until the baptism of salvation." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"The sins committed before faith are accordingly forgiven by the Lord -- not that they may be undone, but as if they had not been done." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"Now, the teaching is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by no one'. This is based primarily on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, 'Unless one is born of water he has not life'. However, when this is laid down, there immediately arise scrupulous (or rather, audacious) doubts on the part of some." Tertullian (c. 198)

con't...



belong2Him -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/5/2008 9:40:20 AM)

"'Unless a man has been born again of water and Spirit, he will not enter into the kingdom of the heavens'. These words have tied faith to the necessity of baptism. Accordingly, all thereafter who became believers were baptized. So it was, too, that Paul, when he believed, was baptized." Tertullian (c. 198)

"That baptismal washing is a sealing of faith, which faith is begun and is commended by the faith of repentance. We are not washed in order that we may cease sinning, but because we have ceased. . . . If it is only after the baptismal waters that we cease sinning, it is out of necessity, not of free will." Tertullian (c. 203)

"The cleansing of the Syrian [i.e., Naaman] rather portrayed to the nations of the world their own cleansing in Christ their Light. . . . For the virtue and fullness of the one baptism was thus solemnly imputed to Christ. For He alone was one day to establish on earth -- not only revelation -- but also a baptism endowed with bountiful power." Tertullian (c. 207)

"'Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God' -- in other words, he cannot he holy. Every soul, then, by reason of its birth, has its nature in Adam until it is born again in Christ. Moreover, it is unclean all the time that it remains without this regeneration." Tertullian (c. 210)

"The flesh is the clothing of the soul. The uncleanness, indeed, is washed away by baptism." Tertullian (c. 213)

"'By the bath of regeneration', they were born as new-born babes." Origen (c. 245)

"It is the Holy Spirit who effects with water the second birth, as a certain seed of divine generation. It is a consecration of a heavenly birth and the pledge of a promised inheritance." Novatian (c. 235)

". . . .from that death which once the blood of Christ extinguished and from which the saving grace of baptism and of our Redeemer has delivered us." Cyprian (c. 250)

"He who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually reformed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit." Cyprian (c. 250)

"The blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that by which the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, 'He saved us by the washing of regeneration'." Cyprian (c. 250)

"In the baptism of water, there is received the remission of sins." Cyprian (c. 250)

"All sins are put away in baptism. In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: . . . 'And these things indeed you were. But you are washed; but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ'." Cyprian (c. 250)



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/7/2008 2:58:33 PM)

Still not baptized but I am saved.
Been that way for several years but it may change next weekend because I am supposed to get dunked.[:)]

Just some thoughts:
The confusion with the baptism ritual may be due to it being a sign for the Jews (early on)
but not for the gentiles. The Jews were to move away from the sacrificial system and accept Christ. The scripture shows the Jews receiving the Holy Spirit after they were baptized.
The gentiles however received the Holy Spirit as soon as they believed in Christ and then were baptized afterward. I believe that today during the church age people can be saved without baptism and that is the way I am right now.

Dave



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/7/2008 5:44:55 PM)

with all due respect twonatures, you're as confused as "they" are...lol



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/7/2008 11:07:22 PM)

For more confusion look at this verse:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].

Where does it say anything about baptism? It doesn't.
It's Jesus' answer to a question about being born again.

Consider this:
Every one is born of water? When it is time for the woman to give birth, the water breaks. That is the first birth, the natural one. A child is born of water. But man has to be born again! That is done by the Spirit. So, the first man is no good, only the second one can be accepted. This also show that there is no salvation for an angel, for they are not, nor can be, born of a woman (or born of water).



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 12:20:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

For more confusion look at this verse:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].

Where does it say anything about baptism? It doesn't.
It's Jesus' answer to a question about being born again.

Consider this:
Every one is born of water? When it is time for the woman to give birth, the water breaks. That is the first birth, the natural one. A child is born of water. But man has to be born again! That is done by the Spirit. So, the first man is no good, only the second one can be accepted. This also show that there is no salvation for an angel, for they are not, nor can be, born of a woman (or born of water).

Are you seriously saying that one has to be physically born in order to enter the kingdom of heaven? Is there anyone who isn't qualified?



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 10:13:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

For more confusion look at this verse:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].

Where does it say anything about baptism? It doesn't.
It's Jesus' answer to a question about being born again.

Consider this:
Every one is born of water? When it is time for the woman to give birth, the water breaks. That is the first birth, the natural one. A child is born of water. But man has to be born again! That is done by the Spirit. So, the first man is no good, only the second one can be accepted. This also show that there is no salvation for an angel, for they are not, nor can be, born of a woman (or born of water).

Are you seriously saying that one has to be physically born in order to enter the kingdom of heaven? Is there anyone who isn't qualified?


"Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Yes, you have to be a human to receive salvation through faith in Christ.
Every man and woman is qualified, but not angels of course.
But that is beside the point.
The definition of "born again" is that we need two births, one from the water of the womb AND one from above, to be saved.
Not two from the womb as Nicodemus knew would be impossible.
You see the discussion between Nic and Jesus did not included anything about baptism instead it was about defining "born again".

In verse 6 Jesus reiterates in a different way:
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Your could say: Unless a man is born of flesh AND born of the Spirit he is doomed.

I don't see anything about baptism there.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 11:45:32 AM)

twonatures,
this is a compelling interpretation. The conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus would be extremely difficult to understand if there was no other conversation or account ever recorded. I encourage you to do a study of the use of water and the significance of water in the physical world.

Most of you have some information about "Wicca" and other religions that pertain more to what would be considered "occult" religion. I don't believe the Devil is a creative being. In the practices of the "occult" water and other elements seem to be a central part of their ceremonies. Do you think such similarities are totally unrelated and there is nothing that can be learned about such similarities?

The "spiritual" realm is understood more by Satan than I think any of us can grasp. There are so many similarities between how Satan tries to influence man and how the Holy Spirit works on man. It won't take much research to see that Satan continually tries to mimic God in a very different direction.

I firmly believe that Christians have strongly underestimated the "spiritual" realm.

Although I may seem vague here, I am pointing to the significance of water and how God use of it through Scripture is really interesting. For us to believe that water is of no matter would be a mistake.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 1:13:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

"Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Yes, you have to be a human to receive salvation through faith in Christ.
Every man and woman is qualified, but not angels of course.
But that is beside the point.
If that is really beside the point why do you think Jesus made a point of mentioning it?

quote:

The definition of "born again" is that we need two births, one from the water of the womb AND one from above, to be saved.
Not two from the womb as Nicodemus knew would be impossible.
You see the discussion between Nic and Jesus did not included anything about baptism instead it was about defining "born again".
You are quite right here. Jesus is responding to Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? (John 3:4). In the very next verse Jesus says, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now either Jesus is saying that when we are born of water (physical birth) we are also born of the Spirit, or He is saying that being born again is being born of water and Spirit. Because it seems pretty obvious to me that Jesus is talking about a single birth that involves water and the Spirit. Since I don't believe that we are born of the Spirit when we are born physically, I can only conclude that the second birth (being born again) involves both water and the Spirit. And the only birth I know of in the Christian experience that involves both water and Spirit is baptism.

quote:

In verse 6 Jesus reiterates in a different way:
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Absolutely. What Nicodemus was talking about in verse 4 was the birth of the flesh. Jesus was contrasting that birth of the flesh in verse 4 with the birth of the Spirit in verse 5 (which also involves water, obviously).



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 2:19:15 PM)

greatdivide46,
You are leaving out the third choice that John 3:5 means:
First Birth + Second Birth = Born again.
I was floating around in the water for about 9 months and then born a sinner.
Then I had the second birth from above and became a saved sinner.
Old Man = Condemned.
Old Man + New man = Born again.
Then Old Man didn't go away. He is still part of the equation.
Baptism is not part of my experience yet, even so I am saved.
This weekend may change my undippedness.
Then I will go from being born again to being dipped born again.
Jesus has me covered either way.



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 2:34:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

twonatures,
this is a compelling interpretation. The conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus would be extremely difficult to understand if there was no other conversation or account ever recorded. I encourage you to do a study of the use of water and the significance of water in the physical world.

Most of you have some information about "Wicca" and other religions that pertain more to what would be considered "occult" religion. I don't believe the Devil is a creative being. In the practices of the "occult" water and other elements seem to be a central part of their ceremonies. Do you think such similarities are totally unrelated and there is nothing that can be learned about such similarities?

The "spiritual" realm is understood more by Satan than I think any of us can grasp. There are so many similarities between how Satan tries to influence man and how the Holy Spirit works on man. It won't take much research to see that Satan continually tries to mimic God in a very different direction.

I firmly believe that Christians have strongly underestimated the "spiritual" realm.

Although I may seem vague here, I am pointing to the significance of water and how God use of it through Scripture is really interesting. For us to believe that water is of no matter would be a mistake.


Yes I think water has significance in scripture.
For the church age however I don't see it as being a saving factor.
There appears to be a time in the early church when the Jews received the Holy Spirit after being baptized. There was a transition period early in Acts where it went from a belief in Faith Plus Works to Faith Alone doctrine.
Paul verified this with Peter at one point and they agreed.
Except for where Peter messed up in Galatians and Paul corrected him.
Faith Plus Works will probably return again in the time of Jacob's trouble out in the future after the church is raptured.
Right now we don't have to do anything but believe in the shed blood of Christ for salvation. Baptism to me is a ritual profession of faith only.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/8/2008 4:00:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

greatdivide46,
You are leaving out the third choice that John 3:5 means:
First Birth + Second Birth = Born again.
I agree with your conclusion -- first birth + second birth = born again. I just don't think both births are mentioned in a single verse. The single birth that Jesus is talking about in John 3:5 is one birth, a birth from above, that involves both water and the Spirit. It is not a birth of water and a birth of the Spirit. It is a birth of water and the Spirit. One birth, not two.

quote:

I was floating around in the water for about 9 months and then born a sinner.
Then I had the second birth from above and became a saved sinner.
Old Man = Condemned.
Old Man + New man = Born again.
Then Old Man didn't go away. He is still part of the equation.
My experience as well. [:)]

quote:

Baptism is not part of my experience yet, even so I am saved.
This weekend may change my undippedness.
Then I will go from being born again to being dipped born again.
Jesus has me covered either way.
The problem with this is that the New Testament has not a single example of a believer who is not baptized. No matter if you think baptism preceded or followed belief, it happened for all Christians mentioned in the New Testament. So, to a person living in New Testament times "unbaptized Christian" would be an oxymoron. [:)]



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/11/2008 2:51:54 PM)

Perhaps your doctrine does not match reality if you have to discount the exceptions such as saved people who are not baptized today
or the thief on the cross who was saved with no time for a bath,
or death bed conversions where people come to Christ but pass on without a dunk, or all the verses in the bible where salvation is by believing in Christ alone with no mention of baptism.

This weekend went well and now after two and half years from the day of my new birth I have been baptized!
After the dunking I had to take a shower to wash off all the chlorine.
I came out dirtier than when I went in but the ritual is done.



JimboFletch -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/11/2008 2:59:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures
...This weekend went well and now after two and half years from the day of my new birth I have been baptized!
After the dunking I had to take a shower to wash off all the chlorine.
I came out dirtier than when I went in but the ritual is done.

You seem somewhat put-out that you had to endure public association with Jesus through the ordinance He commanded, one that represents His death, burial, and resurrection. I'm not sure that He was overjoyed by your extreme sacrifice on His behalh, but who knows...



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/11/2008 7:16:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

Perhaps your doctrine does not match reality if you have to discount the exceptions such as saved people who are not baptized today
I don't know about people who are saved but not baptized. There are no examples of such a person in Scripture. Since God made baptism a requirement I'm sure He can suspend it for certain individuals if he so desires, but I can't teach that because some seem to be saved without baptism that therefore baptism is unnecessary for everyone.

quote:

or the thief on the cross who was saved with no time for a bath,
Of course the thief on the cross was saved before baptism was a requirement so he didn't have to be baptized.

quote:

or death bed conversions where people come to Christ but pass on without a dunk,
Again their salvation is totally up to God. Since there are no examples of deathbed conversions in Scripture I cannot, in good conscience, teach people that they can live their lives without Christ but on their deathbed they can accept Him and He'll take them to heaven.

quote:

or all the verses in the bible where salvation is by believing in Christ alone with no mention of baptism.
Sure there are verses that mention believing as a requirement that don't mention baptism. There are also verses that talk about salvation that don't mention repentence, but I'm sure not going to teach that repentance is not necessary. And neither will I teach that baptism is unnecessary since there are just as many verses that teach that it is necessary.

quote:

This weekend went well and now after two and half years from the day of my new birth I have been baptized!
After the dunking I had to take a shower to wash off all the chlorine.
I came out dirtier than when I went in but the ritual is done.
Sorry it wasn't a blessing for you. Nevertheless, I'm sure that God accomplished in your baptism what He intended to, whether you believe it or not. [:)]



JesKlu -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/12/2008 5:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristianRink
I was infant baptized as an infant, but I was Born Again at the age of 32... I want to be baptized in water because the first time did not count. No infant can accept Christ as their Savior and that's a huge problem that people just don't get.


Hello ChristianRink,

What about circumcision? Babies were circumcised. God commanded that infant boys be circumcised at 8 days old or else they will be cut off from God's people. In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul says circumcision forshadowed Baptism, and if infants were circumcised, then infants can definately be baptized. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus says:

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."(ESV)

Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS. When do you become a citizen of your country? At birth. So obviously, babies are part of the words all nations. The text does not say, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations over the age of twelve."

Also, if you continue in the argument, the Bible doesn't command that women get baptized either, but they did because they are included in the words "all nations", so are babies.

So try to re-think about getting baptized again. Re-baptism was never taught in the church until after the reformation when the Anabaptist movement started somewhere in the 1520's. Before then, there was no questioning of infant baptism. I have no idea where the Anabaptists got their ideas from.

Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica



Butterflytearz -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/12/2008 6:31:36 PM)

Most of our physical body is water the rest is just a bit of dust.. the spirit is the life



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/12/2008 8:06:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

What about circumcision? Babies were circumcised. God commanded that infant boys be circumcised at 8 days old or else they will be cut off from God's people. In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul says circumcision forshadowed Baptism, and if infants were circumcised, then infants can definately be baptized.

If we follow that logic consistently then only infant boys can be baptized. Since girls were not required to be circumcised then I guess infant girls don't need to be baptized. [:)]



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 9:50:24 AM)

greatdivide46,

After observing some of your posts I have come to the conclusion
that you believe in at least two works of grace.
For example in post 791 where you say baptism in a work of grace:
Baptism is not a work of the law, it is a work of grace -- God's grace, by which we are saved, through faith.
And post 706 where you say that saving goes on during baptism:
The saving that goes on during baptism has nothing to do with the person doing the baptizing. It's all God doing the saving.
Then you say in post 756 that you agree belief must precede baptism:
I agree that belief must precede baptism.

This is confusing to the reader unless you believe in two works of Grace?



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