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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/3/2008 9:07:04 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Obviously, no one knows for an absolute certainty about another person's salvation. And, neither is it our business except, of course, for those who have the spiritual leadership in a church. But, if in fact, there is this evidence of faith then we would be foolhardy to suggest someone is not saved before water baptism.
If we follow the Biblical examples, baptism should take place so soon after initial belief that there wouldn't be time to see any evidence of faith. But I agree, if there is evidence of faith, we would indeed be foolhardy to suggest someone is not saved before water baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/8/2008 6:25:18 PM
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restored08
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quote:
scripture doesn't support it- we are saved by grace alone, water doesn't save you.
John 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
All of these are in red lettering (Jesus spoke these words himself.)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/8/2008 6:29:01 PM
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restored08
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quote:
[scripture doesn't support it- we are saved by grace not by water.
John 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of Spirit he shall not enter the Kingdom of God.
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Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/8/2008 6:34:01 PM
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restored08
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
John 3 verse 5 says that Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
_____________________________
Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/8/2008 7:27:22 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
John 3 verse 5 says that Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Our first birth is natural. We come out of the bag of waters that was in our mother's womb. We are natural men/women.
Nicodemus wanted to know how he could be born again. He had been born once and now Jesus tells him that he must be born again. You will note that only two births are mentioned, not three. Being born of the Spirit is referred to as being born again; it is also referred to as the second birth. That which is born of flesh is the first birth; to be born again is the second birth and it is a spiritual birth. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The natural man can't understand the things of God. The spiritual man can.
John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Except a man be born of flesh and of Spirit)
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1 Corinthians 15
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/8/2008 9:05:44 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Our first birth is natural. We come out of the bag of waters that was in our mother's womb. We are natural men/women.
Nicodemus wanted to know how he could be born again. He had been born once and now Jesus tells him that he must be born again. You will note that only two births are mentioned, not three. Being born of the Spirit is referred to as being born again; it is also referred to as the second birth. That which is born of flesh is the first birth; to be born again is the second birth and it is a spiritual birth. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The natural man can't understand the things of God. The spiritual man can. If you are referring specifically to John 3:5 I agree there there are not three births mentioned here. In fact, there are not even two births mentioned in this verse. There is only one birth in John 3:5. It is a birth of water and the Spirit. One birth that involves both water and the Spirit. It can only be referring to baptism, unless one goes through hermeneutical gyrations to make water mean something other than water so that it conforms to some preconceived notion.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/9/2008 3:37:47 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Our first birth is natural. We come out of the bag of waters that was in our mother's womb. We are natural men/women.
Nicodemus wanted to know how he could be born again. He had been born once and now Jesus tells him that he must be born again. You will note that only two births are mentioned, not three. Being born of the Spirit is referred to as being born again; it is also referred to as the second birth. That which is born of flesh is the first birth; to be born again is the second birth and it is a spiritual birth. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The natural man can't understand the things of God. The spiritual man can. If you are referring specifically to John 3:5 I agree there there are not three births mentioned here. In fact, there are not even two births mentioned in this verse. There is only one birth in John 3:5. It is a birth of water and the Spirit. One birth that involves both water and the Spirit. It can only be referring to baptism, unless one goes through hermeneutical gyrations to make water mean something other than water so that it conforms to some preconceived notion.
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births.
The only other gyration to get past the plain and simple reading is to insist on 3 births required for heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/9/2008 6:40:42 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
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quote:
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births.
Using this logic, would you say an unborn child who dies in the womb cannot enter the kingdom of God ??
They weren't "born of water" as you read the verse saying that is refers to natural birth.
Being born of water & spirit is a reference to baptism, this verse refers to one birth, not two or three.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/9/2008 6:57:25 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births. I looked up John 3:5 in several versions. Virtually every version had "a birth of water and the Spirit." The only version that reads the way you wrote it is the KJV and even there the second "of" is italicized indicating it is not in the Greek text. Therefore, a better reading of John 3:5 is "born of water and the Spirit." Grammatically this indicates a single birth as I have stated before.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 4/9/2008 7:04:54 PM >
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 1:46:20 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Our first birth is natural. We come out of the bag of waters that was in our mother's womb. We are natural men/women.
Nicodemus wanted to know how he could be born again. He had been born once and now Jesus tells him that he must be born again. You will note that only two births are mentioned, not three. Being born of the Spirit is referred to as being born again; it is also referred to as the second birth. That which is born of flesh is the first birth; to be born again is the second birth and it is a spiritual birth. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The natural man can't understand the things of God. The spiritual man can. If you are referring specifically to John 3:5 I agree there there are not three births mentioned here. In fact, there are not even two births mentioned in this verse. There is only one birth in John 3:5. It is a birth of water and the Spirit. One birth that involves both water and the Spirit. It can only be referring to baptism, unless one goes through hermeneutical gyrations to make water mean something other than water so that it conforms to some preconceived notion.
Apparently, Christ also is guilty of performing "hermeneutical gyrations" to make water mean something other than water as He conforms it to His preconceived notion. We see these "hermeneutical gyrations" of His in the following:
"..whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 3:12:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Our first birth is natural. We come out of the bag of waters that was in our mother's womb. We are natural men/women.
Nicodemus wanted to know how he could be born again. He had been born once and now Jesus tells him that he must be born again. You will note that only two births are mentioned, not three. Being born of the Spirit is referred to as being born again; it is also referred to as the second birth. That which is born of flesh is the first birth; to be born again is the second birth and it is a spiritual birth. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The natural man can't understand the things of God. The spiritual man can. If you are referring specifically to John 3:5 I agree there there are not three births mentioned here. In fact, there are not even two births mentioned in this verse. There is only one birth in John 3:5. It is a birth of water and the Spirit. One birth that involves both water and the Spirit. It can only be referring to baptism, unless one goes through hermeneutical gyrations to make water mean something other than water so that it conforms to some preconceived notion.
Two births are mentioned. Read verse 6:
quote:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
The other birth mentioned is from above. Read verse 7:
quote:
Do not be astonished that I said to you, 'You must be born from above.'
The first birth mentioned is of the flesh. Nicodemus was wondering how he could get back into his mother's womb to be born again. Jesus explains that being born again is from above. He says nothing of baptism ---- nothing at all.
JimboFletch is correct when he says:
quote:
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births.
The only other gyration to get past the plain and simple reading is to insist on 3 births required for heaven.
Baptism is not compared to birth. BAPTISM IS A PICTURE OF THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST:
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."—Romans 6:3-4.
Respectfully,
Ephesians
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 7:58:11 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Apparently, Christ also is guilty of performing "hermeneutical gyrations" to make water mean something other than water as He conforms it to His preconceived notion. We see these "hermeneutical gyrations" of His in the following:
"..whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".
In the verse you've quoted Jesus uses water in an obviously figurative sense. There is no such obvious figurative sense in John 3:5. Hence, my term "hermeneutical gyrations." The only single birth that I'm aware of that involves water and the Spirit in the life of the Christian is baptism. And that's what I think Jesus is referring to in John 3:5.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 8:06:53 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births. I looked up John 3:5 in several versions. Virtually every version had "a birth of water and the Spirit." The only version that reads the way you wrote it is the KJV and even there the second "of" is italicized indicating it is not in the Greek text. Therefore, a better reading of John 3:5 is "born of water and the Spirit." Grammatically this indicates a single birth as I have stated before.
In context, IMHO, you are misreading the plain meaning. From a salvic standpoint, water has no precidence in the word of God for remission of sin.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 8:13:09 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
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Ephesians 4_32:
Of course there are two births mentioned in the entire passage. And you are correct in naming the two births. One is of the flesh and the other is from above. However, I was referring specifically to verse 5 where only one birth is mentioned, the one from above.
quote:
Baptism is not compared to birth. BAPTISM IS A PICTURE OF THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST:
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."—Romans 6:3-4.
How can you say that baptism is not compared to birth and then turn around and boldly state it is a picture of the the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? I agree with you that baptism is a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. And you were right to quote Romans 6:3-4 to point that out. When we are buried in the waters of baptism we experience the death of the old nature. When we are raised out of the waters of baptism we are resurrected to begin our walk in the newness of life. If that's not a new birth, then I don't know what is!!!
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 8:22:44 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
In context, IMHO, you are misreading the plain meaning. From a salvic standpoint, water has no precidence in the word of God for remission of sin. You may be right that "from a salvic standpoint, water has no precedence in the word of God for remission of sin." But then I never said it did. 
But I do believe that, in context, that plainest meaning is that Jesus means water. He does not mean amniotic fluid, the Spirit, or the Word. I opt for water meaning exactly what it says, water. However, I don't think our salvation hinges on our interpretation of this verse so thinking that Jesus meant amniotic fluid is fine with me. Heck, I used to believe that myself and it made perfect sense to me at the time.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 9:27:46 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Ephesians 4_32:
Of course there are two births mentioned in the entire passage. And you are correct in naming the two births. One is of the flesh and the other is from above. However, I was referring specifically to verse 5 where only one birth is mentioned, the one from above.
John 3:5 mentions both a natural birth(water) and a spiritual birth(Spirit). Read this verse 5 in context. We are speaking of two births in this passage!
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.'
8 The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Spiritual birth, regeneration, is a work of God alone. Man cannot bring it about or assist God in bringing it about. We cannot bring about our natural birth, nor can we bring about our spiritual birth.
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" -1 John 5:1
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” - Matt. 16:17
Another possibilty in John 3:5 is that water is a metaphor for spiritual cleansing and rebirth. Was it Jimbo that referred to the living water? I'm not even sure it was in this thread as I have been doing a lot reading as well as posting in the past twenty-four hours.
"Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."" John 4:10
Giving us living water does not refer to water baptism.
Whereas the possibilty of the water in verse 5 referring to the Holy Spirit, in context it seems that Christ has been contrasting the natural birth with the spiritual one. Either way, He hasn't mentioned water baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 9:40:36 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
quote:
The wording clearly shows that two births are mentioned in the verse, not one. You can get a single birth from the verse through some gyrations, but it doesn't say, "a birth of water and the Spirit," but it says, "be born of water and of the Spirit." Two different births. In context, it can only be natural and supernatural births.
Using this logic, would you say an unborn child who dies in the womb cannot enter the kingdom of God ??
They weren't "born of water" as you read the verse saying that is refers to natural birth.
Catholics baptize infants - despite the fact that they cannot profess their personal faith in Christ - in order to share with them as soon as possible that redemptive grace of Christ and to follow the practice of the first Christians.
Baptism is the sacrament through which we become members of Christ's Church and are incorporated into the death and resurrection of Jesus. The baptismal washing, whether by immersion or by the pouring of water, cleanses us from sin and is necessary for eternal life (John 3:3-6).
- Rev. Michael Sheehan
Would you say an unborn child who dies in the womb cannot enter the kingdom of God?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 10:30:13 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
John 3:5 mentions both a natural birth(water) and a spiritual birth(Spirit). Read this verse 5 in context. We are speaking of two births in this passage! Basic English grammar should show you that the phrase in John 3:5 is referring to one birth. "Of water and the Spirit" is a prepositional phrase with a dual object. It modifies "born." One birth involving water and the Spirit.
However, you are correct. The context contains two births. A birth from above (involving water and the Spirit) and a birth of the flesh. Jesus is contrasting a fleshly birth with a spiritual birth. In verse 4 Nicodemus is referring to the birth of the flesh. Jesus says, in verse 5, that in order to enter the Kingdom of God a spiritual rebirth is required, a birth of water and the Spirit.
quote:
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.'
8 The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
quote:
Spiritual birth, regeneration, is a work of God alone. Man cannot bring it about or assist God in bringing it about. We cannot bring about our natural birth, nor can we bring about our spiritual birth. Since it is possible to be dunked in water and not be saved, it is not what man is doing in baptism that saves. Therefore, there is no assisting God in salvation in baptism.
quote:
Another possibilty in John 3:5 is that water is a metaphor for spiritual cleansing and rebirth. Was it Jimbo that referred to the living water? I'm not even sure it was in this thread as I have been doing a lot reading as well as posting in the past twenty-four hours.
"Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."" John 4:10
Giving us living water does not refer to water baptism. You are right. Living water does not refer to water baptism. Living water is an obvious figure of speech since literal water is not living. There is no obvious figure of speech in John 3:5. Just the bare word "water" which I contend means exactly what it says, water. It does not mean amniotic fluid, the Word of God, nor the Spirit.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 10:33:00 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
John 3:5 mentions both a natural birth(water) and a spiritual birth(Spirit). Read this verse 5 in context. We are speaking of two births in this passage! Basic English grammar should show you that the phrase in John 3:5 is referring to one birth. "Of water and the Spirit" is a prepositional phrase with a dual object. It modifies "born." One birth involving water and the Spirit.
Born of water does not refer to baptism. Baptism is a burial. Resurrection is rising up, not going down into the grave. Baptismal water is referred to as a grave. Baptism is a voluntary act by a Christian. The birth from above is a gift of God. The Spirit chooses to bestow the gift on whomever it pleases:
John 3(NIV)
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/10/2008 10:42:49 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Born of water does not refer to baptism. Baptism is a burial. Resurrection is rising up, not going down into the grave. Baptismal water is referred to as a grave. Baptism is a voluntary act by a Christian. The birth from above is a gift of God. The Spirit choose | | |
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