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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/13/2008 11:29:11 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
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From: Opp, Alabama
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FreeGrace,
I'm really not convinced that our physical birth has anything to do with us entering the kingdom of heaven, which is what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5. He's telling Nicodemus the requirements for being born again and for entering the kingdom of heaven. Obviously the first birth, which has nothing to do with salvation, is our physical birth. But the second birth, the "born-again" birth, is a birth of water and the Spirit. In verse 6 Jesus is contrasting that spiritual birth, of water and the Spirit, with our physical birth, of flesh. So, to make Jesus say that unless one is born physically and spiritually, I don't think accurately portrays what Jesus is saying. Especially in verse 5.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/13/2008 11:40:46 PM
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ladioffaith
Posts: 2912
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From: NE Ohio (L.A. . . Lower Akron)
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Posting blind, and will probably never come back here again.
I was "saved but not baptized" for the first 10 or so years of my Christian walk. I attended a church that did not baptize because many people walked around living as they pleased, thinking that they had their ticket into heaven because they'd been baptized.
That denomination is still practicing today, but I left there when I went to college.
Once I got into another church, I decided "when in Rome" and got baptized. Nothing really stood out about the whole experience. The water didn't save me. Christ did, long, long ago.
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The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save.
He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with
his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zeph. 3:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 4:52:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3713
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quote:
I believe this is what happens when people are free to invent and develop their own little personal theologies without scrutiny, examination or testing. Yep, just like the RC does. Like their own little anti-biblical theology such as water baptism forgives sins....then they catch some sins in confession and the rest of the sins?...well, they'll just catch'em in purgatory. Shame how these rascally passages always get in their way though....
"....and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
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To deny the salvic properties of the Sacrament of Baptism, instituted by Christ Himself, is to deny the validity of the instruction of Jesus. And if what Jesus teaches isn't valid for Christian faith, then hey...go follow Mohammed... Nah, you've got that all wrong. Hey, everyone knows, or should know, the best place to go when we want to deny the validity of Jesus' teachings is to the RC.
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I don't believe there is anything more to the discussion than that. Right....there isn't.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 8:06:04 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
FreeGrace,
I'm really not convinced that our physical birth has anything to do with us entering the kingdom of heaven, which is what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5. He's telling Nicodemus the requirements for being born again and for entering the kingdom of heaven. Obviously the first birth, which has nothing to do with salvation, is our physical birth. But the second birth, the "born-again" birth, is a birth of water and the Spirit. In verse 6 Jesus is contrasting that spiritual birth, of water and the Spirit, with our physical birth, of flesh. So, to make Jesus say that unless one is born physically and spiritually, I don't think accurately portrays what Jesus is saying. Especially in verse 5.
It does make sense since Nicodemus was thinking of two physical births, and Jesus was pointing out there must be two births alright, but not two physical ones; rather, one physical and one spiritual.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 8:07:26 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladioffaith
Posting blind, and will probably never come back here again.
I was "saved but not baptized" for the first 10 or so years of my Christian walk. I attended a church that did not baptize because many people walked around living as they pleased, thinking that they had their ticket into heaven because they'd been baptized.
That denomination is still practicing today, but I left there when I went to college.
Once I got into another church, I decided "when in Rome" and got baptized. Nothing really stood out about the whole experience. The water didn't save me. Christ did, long, long ago.
Amen!
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 11:50:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It does make sense since Nicodemus was thinking of two physical births, and Jesus was pointing out there must be two births alright, but not two physical ones; rather, one physical and one spiritual. I agree completely with you. I used to believe it referred to physical birth, myself. However, do you really think that when Nicodemus heard the word "water" he immediately thought of physical birth? I don't, since physical birth is invariably referred as being born of the flesh, not born of water. And since John the Baptist was well-known in all of Judea and Jesus' own baptism was probably well known, too, I think when Nicodemus heard the words "born of water and the Spirit" he immediately thought of baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 11:55:36 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
...I used to believe it referred to physical birth, myself. However, do you really think that when Nicodemus heard the word "water" he immediately thought of physical birth?....
Nicodemus apparently had no clue whatsoever. Jesus even used a bit of sarcasm on Nicodemus because of his inability to grasp real spiritual things when he considered himself to be a spritual expert.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 1:51:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It does make sense since Nicodemus was thinking of two physical births, and Jesus was pointing out there must be two births alright, but not two physical ones; rather, one physical and one spiritual. I agree completely with you. I used to believe it referred to physical birth, myself. However, do you really think that when Nicodemus heard the word "water" he immediately thought of physical birth?
I do for the reasons I've given. He was thinking of physical birth by his question to Jesus' comment
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I don't, since physical birth is invariably referred as being born of the flesh, not born of water.
That's true, but again, Nic was thinking in physical only terms. Jesus' use of "water" makes the physical kind of birth quite graphic. Unless you've never witnessed any babies being born.
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And since John the Baptist was well-known in all of Judea and Jesus' own baptism was probably well known, too, I think when Nicodemus heard the words "born of water and the Spirit" he immediately thought of baptism.
I'm not sure Nic even knew of Jesus' baptism by John.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 1:58:52 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It does make sense since Nicodemus was thinking of two physical births, and Jesus was pointing out there must be two births alright, but not two physical ones; rather, one physical and one spiritual. I agree completely with you. I used to believe it referred to physical birth, myself. However, do you really think that when Nicodemus heard the word "water" he immediately thought of physical birth? I don't, since physical birth is invariably referred as being born of the flesh, not born of water. And since John the Baptist was well-known in all of Judea and Jesus' own baptism was probably well known, too, I think when Nicodemus heard the words "born of water and the Spirit" he immediately thought of baptism.
Also, to associate water with with a physical birth is not common language, and it is not commonly referred to in that context. It is also not mentioned anywhere in scripture where physical birth is tired to water.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/14/2008 7:38:14 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
But if one interprets it as "water," then it cannot mean baptism. It may not mean baptism, but if one takes it literally what else could it possibly be referring to but baptism. There is no other place in the life of a Christian where water and the Spirit come together except in Christian baptism. Jesus' own baptism is a perfect example of the conjunction of water and the Spirit.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/15/2008 1:58:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3713
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It may not mean baptism, but if one takes it literally what else could it possibly be referring to but baptism. There is no other place in the life of a Christian where water and the Spirit come together except in Christian baptism. Jesus' own baptism is a perfect example of the conjunction of water and the Spirit.
Jesus' water baptism is an example of many things; but, one thing we know for sure, it is not an example of forgiveness of sins, rebirth or regeneration. For one thing, in John 1, we see it was an example of identification - the Son of God, the Lamb of God - and the declaration of Christ's purpose.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. -John 1:33
The point is that in many places in Scripture we are told how we are "born of God" and never once is water baptism in view. Therefore, it's already been biblically proven that we are "born of God" by the Word of God - the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does the work of regeneration as He applies the Word of God to our hearts.
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. -James 1:8
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. -1Peter 1:23
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. -1Corinthians 4:15
We see that the "water" Christ gives is the Holy Spirit. Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and it is set in opposition in order to show or emphasize differences with that of water baptism.
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. -John 4:14
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. -Mark 1:8
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/15/2008 7:03:26 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1960
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
But if one interprets it as "water," then it cannot mean baptism. It may not mean baptism, but if one takes it literally what else could it possibly be referring to but baptism. There is no other place in the life of a Christian where water and the Spirit come together except in Christian baptism. Jesus' own baptism is a perfect example of the conjunction of water and the Spirit.
There is nothing logical that you can conclude if you want to label it "literal." It's like saying someone is "born of metal." Metal is inanimate material (is not living). Metal nor water can "literally" begat children. If you want to believe it's baptism, you have to explain grammatically and/or in a literary manner what position in speech your substitution occupies. I suppose there are several possibilities. I have named mine--it's a metaphor. And I named what it is a metaphor for.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/15/2008 8:46:39 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Jesus' water baptism is an example of many things; but, one thing we know for sure, it is not an example of forgiveness of sins, rebirth or regeneration. For one thing, in John 1, we see it was an example of identification - the Son of God, the Lamb of God - and the declaration of Christ's purpose. Yes, I agree.
quote:
The point is that in many places in Scripture we are told how we are "born of God" and never once is water baptism in view. Therefore, it's already been biblically proven that we are "born of God" by the Word of God - the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does the work of regeneration as He applies the Word of God to our hearts. Certainly we are born of God. I will even concede that we are born of God by the Word of God. I agree, totally that the Holy Spirit does the work of regeneration as He applies the Word of God to our hearts. I guess where we disagree is when the Holy Spirit does that work of regeneration. I believe it occurs when we are baptized.
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We see that the "water" Christ gives is the Holy Spirit. Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and it is set in opposition in order to show or emphasize differences with that of water baptism. While I disagree that the "water" Christ mentions in John 3:5 refers to the Holy Spirit, I do believe that Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Nor do I think that the fact the Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit is in opposition to baptism in water. I believe that Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. (see Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13).
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/15/2008 3:39:18 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
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great, acts 2:38 does not say when we will receive the Holy Spirit, it does not say we will receive it AT baptism, and scripture does now show one place where it is given AT baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/15/2008 11:37:56 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
great, acts 2:38 does not say when we will receive the Holy Spirit, it does not say we will receive it AT baptism, and scripture does now show one place where it is given AT baptism.
While it may not state in Acts 2:38 when we will receive the Holy Spirit, I think the fact that receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is mentioned immediately following baptism is a strong implication that there is some connection between baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. It seems that both baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are related to the new birth (see John 3:5). So, no matter when we receive the Holy Spirit it is as a result of baptism that we receive Him.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 2:25:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3713
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
While I disagree that the "water" Christ mentions in John 3:5 refers to the Holy Spirit,... And in doing so, you are not comparing scripture with scripture because the reference in John 3:5 is comparable with other verses where water is used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Nor do I think that the fact the Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit is in opposition to baptism in water. I believe that Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. (see Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13).
I'm afraid that view is not supported in either of the passages you mentioned. In Acts 2:38, they were told first to believe and repent then they could be baptized in water - meaning they were regenerated before water baptism. They didn't receive the Holy Spirit in water baptism - it doesn't say that at all. It speaks of the "gift" which is there used as the evidence and is probably the gift of "speaking in tongues".
Are you saying you believe that when people are water baptized today they "speak in tongues" as the evidence of being regenerated in water baptism?
And clearly in 1Cor 12:13 water baptism has no place whatsoever. The only possibility is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. All who are water baptized do not receive the Holy Spirit(regeneration) as can be shown from the still unregenerated Simon Magus who was water baptized. No, Paul here is speaking of all true members of the church of Jesus Christ who "drink" of the Holy Spirit where again we see a reference to the often used figure of speech for the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by kelman -- 4/16/2008 2:31:52 AM >
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 9:45:13 AM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
great, acts 2:38 does not say when we will receive the Holy Spirit, it does not say we will receive it AT baptism, and scripture does now show one place where it is given AT baptism.
While it may not state in Acts 2:38 when we will receive the Holy Spirit, I think the fact that receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is mentioned immediately following baptism is a strong implication that there is some connection between baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. It seems that both baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are related to the new birth (see John 3:5). So, no matter when we receive the Holy Spirit it is as a result of baptism that we receive Him.
I agree with you to some extent, however, you can receive the Holy Ghost BEFORE baptism, just as they did in acts 10. Also, in acts 8, these people were baptized for an amount of time before they received the Spirit, they did not receive it immediately after. But it is not a result of baptism that we receive the spirit, as scripture shows.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 9:46:49 AM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
While I disagree that the "water" Christ mentions in John 3:5 refers to the Holy Spirit,... And in doing so, you are not comparing scripture with scripture because the reference in John 3:5 is comparable with other verses where water is used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Nor do I think that the fact the Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit is in opposition to baptism in water. I believe that Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. (see Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13).
I'm afraid that view is not supported in either of the passages you mentioned. In Acts 2:38, they were told first to believe and repent then they could be baptized in water - meaning they were regenerated before water baptism. They didn't receive the Holy Spirit in water baptism - it doesn't say that at all. It speaks of the "gift" which is there used as the evidence and is probably the gift of "speaking in tongues".
Are you saying you believe that when people are water baptized today they "speak in tongues" as the evidence of being regenerated in water baptism?
And clearly in 1Cor 12:13 water baptism has no place whatsoever. The only possibility is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. All who are water baptized do not receive the Holy Spirit(regeneration) as can be shown from the still unregenerated Simon Magus who was water baptized. No, Paul here is speaking of all true members of the church of Jesus Christ who "drink" of the Holy Spirit where again we see a reference to the often used figure of speech for the Holy Spirit.
Kel, the gift of the holy spirit is just that, a gift, it is not the gift of tongues, but the gift of the Spirit that God Himself gives.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 10:23:18 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And in doing so, you are not comparing scripture with scripture because the reference in John 3:5 is comparable with other verses where water is used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. Actually I have compared scripture with scripture and have concluded that while "water" is certainly a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in some verses (Isaiah 44:3; John 7:37-39; and even John 4:10-14), that doesn't mean it has to be a metaphor in this verse. In fact, the context in those other verses makes it obvious that "water" is a metaphor. In John 3:5 there is no contextual indication of a figurative intention for the term.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 10:31:19 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I'm afraid that view is not supported in either of the passages you mentioned. In Acts 2:38, they were told first to believe and repent then they could be baptized in water - meaning they were regenerated before water baptism. The | | |
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