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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 2:21:53 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I don't think just by virtue of being veterans, they have the right to speak in a school.
If their presentation is political in nature, it is probably more suitable to a different venue- just as having aid workers from the area would also be a great educational experience- as long as they aren't pushing an agenda. A group of anti-war veterans/families also would not be appropriate.
This is a hot topic right now and a superintendents job is to protect his district from danger and controversy...
It would be nice to see them do something else- like have an alternate program where they bring in local veterans with no agenda who can share their experience.
I haven't seen any evidence they are particularly political, and I think it would excellent for our children to be exposed to the men and women who allow them to have the education they have in a free country.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 2:27:21 PM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1072
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: The Unted State of Confusion
Status: online
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The dangerous and controversial aspects I was applying specifically to the motivatiosn of superintendents. He has the repsonsibility to screen people & groups coming in to be sure the students & school will not be in a bad position. It would be "bad for business" so to speak to have antiwar demonstrations at a school. That is not conducive to education.
The other part of this should these topics be covered in a classroom- ABSOLUTELY. In the proper manner. Which is why I said I hope that they will come up with an alternate activity.
Looking over material on the internet, it seems this group has an agenda. This is not just an educational opportunity- it is propoganda- which is fine, but not in the classroom. As I said, it would be equally wrong to bring in a group of veterans who have a strong antiwar agenda.
I think bringing vets into the classroom is a great idea (I said that already, didn't I?)- that does not mean bringing in this particular group is a good idea.
Tara P
_____________________________
http://www.geocities.com/hallscola67/KyliesHomemadeShopIndex.htm
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 2:34:03 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
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I may not be for this war but I don't want our soldiers who put their lives on the line when ordered to, to be treated disgracefully. They deserve better for their bravery and sacrifice. I still have two of my cousins in Iraq (one has been there since the beginning except for a three month period rehabilitation from being injured in the mess hall mortar attack).
I'll save all my protesting and insults for Bush and Cheney. The men and women of the armed forces are doing a difficult job under difficult (if not impossible) circumstances. So may God bless them and (especially) protect them!
BTW, Cheney, a republic means that you are elected to do the will of your constituents, the American people. That comment was more appropriate of a despot.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 2:41:04 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10840
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
BTW, Cheney, a republic means that you are elected to do the will of your constituents, the American people. That comment was more appropriate of a despot. It could be argued that republic is to democracy as rule of law is to mob rule.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:05:21 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
The dangerous and controversial aspects I was applying specifically to the motivatiosn of superintendents. He has the repsonsibility to screen people & groups coming in to be sure the students & school will not be in a bad position. It would be "bad for business" so to speak to have antiwar demonstrations at a school. That is not conducive to education.
I agree; but in this respect it was bad for education because he allowed himself to be bullied by such protestors instead of telling them to take a flying leap.
quote:
The other part of this should these topics be covered in a classroom- ABSOLUTELY. In the proper manner. Which is why I said I hope that they will come up with an alternate activity.
Such as?
quote:
Looking over material on the internet, it seems this group has an agenda. This is not just an educational opportunity- it is propoganda- which is fine, but not in the classroom. As I said, it would be equally wrong to bring in a group of veterans who have a strong antiwar agenda.
How do you define ‘propoganda’? It would be pretty hard to find anyone who had no opinion on the war, and personally I don’t know what anyone could learn from such a person. These guys were there – and that counts for a lot.
quote:
I think bringing vets into the classroom is a great idea (I said that already, didn't I?)- that does not mean bringing in this particular group is a good idea.
But none of this is a good argument about why this group of vets shouldn’t have been allowed to speak.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:07:35 PM
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armydude
Posts: 12223
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
But none of this is a good argument about why this group of vets shouldn’t have been allowed to speak.
If you're looking for a good reason I don't think you'll find one.
_____________________________
Faith without obedience is impossible.
Obedience without faith is unlikely.
Together they are powerful beyond measure.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:15:14 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
It could be argued that republic is to democracy as rule of law is to mob rule.
So we shouldn't hold our elected official accountable to their constituents (aka, the mob). Let's become an oligarchy instead!
Signed,
A member of the mob (aka an ordinary American citizen)
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:23:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
So we shouldn't hold our elected official accountable to their constituents (aka, the mob). Let's become an oligarchy instead!
Signed,
A member of the mob (aka an ordinary American citizen)
Which segment of their constituencies should they be accountable to?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:25:01 PM
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armydude
Posts: 12223
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So we shouldn't hold our elected official accountable to their constituents (aka, the mob). Let's become an oligarchy instead!
Signed,
A member of the mob (aka an ordinary American citizen)
Which segment of their constituencies should they be accountable to?
Ideally all of them, but that's impossible.
_____________________________
Faith without obedience is impossible.
Obedience without faith is unlikely.
Together they are powerful beyond measure.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:29:35 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So we shouldn't hold our elected official accountable to their constituents (aka, the mob). Let's become an oligarchy instead!
Signed,
A member of the mob (aka an ordinary American citizen)
Which segment of their constituencies should they be accountable to?
Oh, just two-thirds of America, that's all!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 3:38:50 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Ideally all of them, but that's impossible.
Of course, which the writers of the Constitution had the wisdom to recognize - which is why the Constitution trumps simple majorities, aka, a Republic.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 5:04:19 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Ideally all of them, but that's impossible.
Of course, which the writers of the Constitution had the wisdom to recognize - which is why the Constitution trumps simple majorities, aka, a Republic.
So then we got what the Founding Fathers wanted? We elect them and they can do whatever they want? So why should we complain when they do that? We elect them and they in their greater intelligence than us "common folk" (the mob) are going to lead us in their knowledge and wisdom that the rest of us don't possess.
How presumptuous of me to hold those "public servants" accountable to the American people!
BTW, has the preamble to the Constitution been changed from the original "We the people"?
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 5:28:59 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
So then we got what the Founding Fathers wanted? We elect them and they can do whatever they want? So why should we complain when they do that? We elect them and they in their greater intelligence than us "common folk" (the mob) are going to lead us in their knowledge and wisdom that the rest of us don't possess.
How presumptuous of me to hold those "public servants" accountable to the American people!
Well, no, presumably they are subject to the constraints of the Constitution just as we are, in addition to the limitations on the power of government contained therein.
And of course, it gives us the wondeful right to kick the idjits out every few years if we get the inclinaton to do so.
quote:
BTW, has the preamble to the Constitution been changed from the original "We the people"?
Well of course, but everyone stops there. "We the People"...yada, yada, yada..."do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 5:44:20 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
Al Queda and the like do not need propoganda. That role is filled by people who insist that they "support the troops."
That deserves an explanation.
Al Queda and other terrorists don't need to produce their own propoganda. It's done by the "we support the troops" crowd. Their favorite part of the war is Abu Gharib. They tell the world our guys are torturing people. They say our soldiers are invaders and occupiers. They say our soldiers are unfit to appear on a HS campus. They are the cheerleaders for the enemy.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 5:45:36 PM
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armydude
Posts: 12223
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
Al Queda and the like do not need propoganda. That role is filled by people who insist that they "support the troops."
That deserves an explanation.
Al Queda and other terrorists don't need to produce their own propoganda. It's done by the "we support the troops" crowd. Their favorite part of the war is Abu Gharib. They tell the world our guys are torturing people. They say our soldiers are invaders and occupiers. They say our soldiers are unfit to appear on a HS campus. They are the cheerleaders for the enemy.
So you're talking about the "we support the troops, but not the war" peoples?
_____________________________
Faith without obedience is impossible.
Obedience without faith is unlikely.
Together they are powerful beyond measure.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 5:51:36 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well of course, but everyone stops there. "We the People"...yada, yada, yada..."do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
We the People of the United States, yada, yada, yada, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
And one of the reasons we did that was "to promote the general welfare".
The ultimate power of the Constitution resides with the people. Remember, we ordained and established the Constitution. We give the state its power and we can modify it and take it away when they start acting more like despots than our duly elected leaders.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 6:00:46 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
Al Queda and the like do not need propoganda. That role is filled by people who insist that they "support the troops."
That deserves an explanation.
Al Queda and other terrorists don't need to produce their own propoganda. It's done by the "we support the troops" crowd. Their favorite part of the war is Abu Gharib. They tell the world our guys are torturing people. They say our soldiers are invaders and occupiers. They say our soldiers are unfit to appear on a HS campus. They are the cheerleaders for the enemy.
So you're talking about the "we support the troops, but not the war" peoples?
Of course, but I do want to make a distinction. There are patriotic ways to advocate other policies. But that is not often done. When people do the things that I mentione above, the boost to our enemies and demoralization it has on our troops is unavoidable. They become cheerleaders for the enemy.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 6:05:03 PM
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armydude
Posts: 12223
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
When people do the things that I mentione above, the boost to our enemies and demoralization it has on our troops is unavoidable. They become cheerleaders for the enemy.
Well said and it deserves to be repeated!
_____________________________
Faith without obedience is impossible.
Obedience without faith is unlikely.
Together they are powerful beyond measure.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 6:21:38 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
We the People of the United States, yada, yada, yada, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
And one of the reasons we did that was "to promote the general welfare".
The ultimate power of the Constitution resides with the people. Remember, we ordained and established the Constitution. We give the state its power and we can modify it and take it away when they start acting more like despots than our duly elected leaders.
First off, we don't have to modify the Constitution to take away politicians power - that power is already in there, people just fail to use it.
Secondly, while people certainly created the Constitution, the advantage of it over a pure democracy is that we are also subject to it; that is it is a document that lays down the basis for our government and laws, and once established, continues to guide us whatever the whims of the mob may be. It is the basis for our Democratic Republic, and can't be easily changed by the mood of the moment, thank God.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 6:46:19 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1490
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
We the People of the United States, yada, yada, yada, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
And one of the reasons we did that was "to promote the general welfare".
The ultimate power of the Constitution resides with the people. Remember, we ordained and established the Constitution. We give the state its power and we can modify it and take it away when they start acting more like despots than our duly elected leaders.
First off, we don't have to modify the Constitution to take away politicians power - that power is already in there, people just fail to use it.
Secondly, while people certainly created the Constitution, the advantage of it over a pure democracy is that we are also subject to it; that is it is a document that lays down the basis for our government and laws, and once established, continues to guide us whatever the whims of the mob may be. It is the basis for our Democratic Republic, and can't be easily changed by the mood of the moment, thank God.
But thank God it can be changed! Otherwise, we would still have an institution called slavery and women and minorities couldn't vote.
Thank you Jesus for dying for THE MOB!!! I guess we're worth something!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 9:13:47 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3658
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
but quite frankly I think it has more to do with the schools hyper-sensitivity to hypocritical parents and being politically correct than it does with leftists.
When they start banning leftists then I would agree.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 10:20:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6774
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
But thank God it can be changed! Otherwise, we would still have an institution called slavery and women and minorities couldn't vote.
Well yes, but I think it was there to begin with because of the desire to 'please the people'.
quote:
Thank you Jesus for dying for THE MOB!!! I guess we're worth something!
Certainly - even more amazing considering the mob elected to have him crucified.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/25/2008 10:36:41 PM
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small_creation
Posts: 207
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: midwest
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
With all due respect, Armydude, dissidence is not unpatriotic. The military serves the civilians...
Whoa! Politicians serve civilians. The military protect and defend us. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
This is why I respect our men and women servicepeople -- because of their position -- and not our politicians. Leave your beef with them.
j
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