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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 9:42:28 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Can you enlighten me on how those states tried to so legally? (ie, before they served Fort Sumpter with cannon fire?) Start a new thread if needed.
In the Southern mind, they came willingly into the Union by voting to do so, therefore, voting to secede was legally the way to leave. Abe had a slightly different opinion on the matter and the rest, as they say, is history.
This is probably just Yankee proganda but didn't the South fire the first shot? Can't get anywhere with words, resort to the gun! Sounds like the Middle East!
Back on topic: I am against this war in Iraq but I think it was wrong for the principal to do that to those vets. I think he was the one that turned it political not the vets.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 10:01:22 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Can you enlighten me on how those states tried to so legally? (ie, before they served Fort Sumpter with cannon fire?) Start a new thread if needed.
In the Southern mind, they came willingly into the Union by voting to do so, therefore, voting to secede was legally the way to leave. Abe had a slightly different opinion on the matter and the rest, as they say, is history.
This is probably just Yankee proganda but didn't the South fire the first shot? Can't get anywhere with words, resort to the gun! Sounds like the Middle East!
Right or wrong, if you think you are no longer part of a country and that country has military troops in your new country but they refuse to leave, the military option may make sense to you in 1861.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 10:22:07 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
Right or wrong, if you think you are no longer part of a country and that country has military troops in your new country but they refuse to leave, the military option may make sense to you in 1861.
Sounds like the Iraqis have a righteous beef with us then!
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 3/27/2008 11:40:14 AM >
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 10:28:56 AM
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stamper_ben
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Really sounds like this is going WAY off topic. 
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 11:43:02 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Back on topic: The principal had to make the call based on his judgement about what was best for the school. If the idea is to help students learn about the service, there are probably any number of veterans in the community that would be glad to talk to classes. Many schools do this now. This veterans group is clearly organized around a pro-war theme, and should expect to be scrutinized. It would be better for this group to have a public forum and students could be given credit for attending.
I always supposed that public schools were public forums.
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“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 11:48:04 AM
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rainbowtvp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I always supposed that public schools were public forums.
So you'd be okay with any group with any agenda coming in to speak to kids in a public school?
Tara P
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 11:57:49 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Back on topic: The principal had to make the call based on his judgement about what was best for the school. If the idea is to help students learn about the service, there are probably any number of veterans in the community that would be glad to talk to classes. Many schools do this now. This veterans group is clearly organized around a pro-war theme, and should expect to be scrutinized. It would be better for this group to have a public forum and students could be given credit for attending.
I am against the war but not against the veterans speaking. High school students are already subjected to military recruitment efforts. Most high schools have an ROTC program. This is really a recruitment tool also.
I don't see a lot of students falling all over themselves to join the ROTC which is there everyday. I don't think one talk by a veterans group will cause a rush of these kids to their local recruiting center.
I don't think that one talk by a group on either side of this issue will have the kids hypnotised either way. As any parent of a teen can tell you, they definitely have minds of their own.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
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Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 12:07:52 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
So you'd be okay with any group with any agenda coming in to speak to kids in a public school?
Well no, that wasn't the point.
If it's fine for the group to be at a public forum, and it's fine for students to go to that public forum for credit, then it follows that the public forum could just as easily been in the school.
There are however groups that might appear at public forums that would inappropriate for a school, but it would also be inappropriate to offer credit to students who attend that forum elsewhere.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 12:31:57 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So you'd be okay with any group with any agenda coming in to speak to kids in a public school?
Well no, that wasn't the point.
If it's fine for the group to be at a public forum, and it's fine for students to go to that public forum for credit, then it follows that the public forum could just as easily been in the school.
There are however groups that might appear at public forums that would inappropriate for a school, but it would also be inappropriate to offer credit to students who attend that forum elsewhere.
Uh-oh! I agreed 100% with what you said here! Must be something in the tea I'm drinking! 
BTW, I think you were also referring to this particular situation and not trying to generalize it. Allowing groups to speak at a high school would have to be on a case by case basis. Some people act like these vets are going to teach these kids how to use drugs safely! We're not debating any group, we're debating about the veteran's group.
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Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 12:57:26 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So you'd be okay with any group with any agenda coming in to speak to kids in a public school?
Well no, that wasn't the point.
If it's fine for the group to be at a public forum, and it's fine for students to go to that public forum for credit, then it follows that the public forum could just as easily been in the school.
There are however groups that might appear at public forums that would inappropriate for a school, but it would also be inappropriate to offer credit to students who attend that forum elsewhere.
Freedom of speech is not unlimited. The principal is within his authority to turn away an activity if he or she believes it is disruptive. The school is not a public park. It is likely owned by the school system, which is a distinct legal entity. As such it can have limitation on access.
Even if we assume this veterans group is a positive thing overall, if it draws a counterdemonstration it would be disruptive to the school, in the principal's way of thinking. He's paid to make these decisions.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 1:16:09 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10830
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quote:
Freedom of speech is not unlimited. The principal is within his authority to turn away an activity if he or she believes it is disruptive. The school is not a public park. It is likely owned by the school system, which is a distinct legal entity. As such it can have limitation on access. Yeah. Especially if the vets were gonna say "I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL!"
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 1:51:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6767
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Freedom of speech is not unlimited. The principal is within his authority to turn away an activity if he or she believes it is disruptive. The school is not a public park. It is likely owned by the school system, which is a distinct legal entity. As such it can have limitation on access.
Even if we assume this veterans group is a positive thing overall, if it draws a counterdemonstration it would be disruptive to the school, in the principal's way of thinking. He's paid to make these decisions.
The problem with that is that then every choice a school makes comes down to, "Will some outspoken group be bothered by it and protest?".
If this is the basis, then you should probably clear the libraries and curriculums of all but the most rudimentary milquetoast information, because there is always a group like that out there.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 2:00:58 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1535
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
Freedom of speech is not unlimited. The principal is within his authority to turn away an activity if he or she believes it is disruptive. The school is not a public park. It is likely owned by the school system, which is a distinct legal entity. As such it can have limitation on access. Yeah. Especially if the vets were gonna say "I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL!"
You know the funny thing about this statement is that if there was a Q & A session, the students' first question would be: "Have you shot anyone?" Which is also what they ask all policemen on career day at my son's elementary school.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 2:06:19 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6767
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You know the funny thing about this statement is that if there was a Q & A session, the students' first question would be: "Have you shot anyone?" Which is also what they ask all policemen on career day at my son's elementary school.
I wonder if a the police could be banned from a school for articulating a reason for carrying a gun and using it?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 2:16:28 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1535
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You know the funny thing about this statement is that if there was a Q & A session, the students' first question would be: "Have you shot anyone?" Which is also what they ask all policemen on career day at my son's elementary school.
I wonder if a the police could be banned from a school for articulating a reason for carrying a gun and using it?
Maybe by that principal at that high school mentioned in the OP.
One irony was on the last career day the school was on lockdown so there were more police than at the normal career day. Some high school kids had taken his parents guns and had made some vague threat against the high school. The father didn't know that his son had figured out how to get into his gun safe.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 3/27/2008 5:25:31 PM
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rnershigh
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Thank goodness not all principals and public schools view vets speaking as some sort of political motive or agenda. Most people support vets and current military speaking in a public forum at a public school.
When my brother came home from R&R, one of the local elementary schools invited him to come see them. My family knows the principal and when he was deployed to Iraq, we got the idea maybe the school would want to do a donation drive to send the unit supplies and other goodies. The students really got involved and so when they found out he was coming home for a 2 week leave, they wanted to meet him to show their appreciation. He brought them a flag that was flown at one of the bases in Iraq and it's currently sitting in the office of the principal.
These stories of people turning a cold shoulder to current military and former military is nothing new. It's very sad, but I know it's only a minority as I've met many people (even strangers) that would thank me for my brother's service when I mentioned he was in the military and had been in Iraq. Majority of people support our troops whatever their political leanings which is the right thing to do.
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 4/1/2008 1:16:59 PM
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Marcus.
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Why is it that folks who deride military members by calling them "baby killers" are never found near an abortion clinic calling the folks who do kill babies "baby killers"?
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 4/1/2008 1:58:51 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Why is it that folks who deride military members by calling them "baby killers" are never found near an abortion clinic calling the folks who do kill babies "baby killers"?
Maybe it's because nobody is calling them "baby-killers". That's old stuff from the Vietnam era.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Veterans Go Away - 4/1/2008 8:27:56 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10830
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Why is it that folks who deride military members by calling them "baby killers" are never found near an abortion clinic calling the folks who do kill babies "baby killers"?
Maybe it's because nobody is calling them "baby-killers". That's old stuff from the Vietnam era.
Yes, Code Pink and the rest DID learn some lessons from Viet Nam.
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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