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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 12:12:32 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
john calvin dedicated several chapters of book institute of christian religion to this one very topic, i suggest you examine link read the chapters and see what john calvin said, it is same as wof said, in the creed it is only one line, without going into any type of a detail.
Friend, I am very familiar with the teachings and writings of John Calvin. What Word of Faithers follow is what E.W. Kenyon (their mentor) made popular a few decades back.
If you would like to continue this discussion in the Word of Faith thread that would be great. Please start with detailing what similarities you're seeing between Calvin's writings on Jesus' atonement and what Word of Faithers such as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers teach and write about.
Thanks.
on this thread we are talking about hank, and in his book christianity in crisis he said that "it is a mystery to me how anyone can conclude that Jesus had to complete the work of redemption in hell" pp165 of ch 14
below is a quote from that www page about "institute of christian religon" by the reformer john calvinquote:
I will show here, this teaching was already in the church theology, and church creed. Most of us probably have quick verse on our computers if you do, don’t just take my word for it, see for yourself, if it is there or not.What did John Calvin born 1509 say concerning Jesus entering hell and suffering spiritual torment there?? INSTITUES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, BOOK 2, CHAPTER 16, SECTION 8,HERE WE MUST NOT OMIT THE DESCENDT TO HELL, WHICH IS OF NO LITTLE IMPORTANCE TO THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF REDEMPTION!!! ……………….THIS MUCH IS UNCONTROVERTED, THAT IT WAS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE GENERAL SENTIMENT OF ALL BELIVERS, SINCE THERE IS NONE OF THE CHURCH FATHERS WHO DOES NOT MENTION CHRIST’S DESCENT INTO HELL…….The chief thing to be attended to in the creed is, that it furnishes us with a full and every way complete summary of faith, containing nothing but what has been derived from the infallible word of God. But should any scruple to give it admission into the creed, it will shortly be made plain, that the place which it holds in a summary of our redemption is so important, that the omission of it greatly detracts from the benefit of Christ’s death.
section 10, But apart from the creed, we must seek for a surer exposition of Christ’s descent to hell, and the word of God furnishes us with one not only pious and holy, but replete with excellent consolation. nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God’s anger, and satisfy his righteous judgment…………….not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price-that he bore in his soul (spirit) the tortures of condemned and ruined man.
section 11, and certainly no abyss can be imagined more dreadful than to feel that you are abandoned, and forsaken of God, and not heard when you invoke him, just as if he had conspired your destruction. To such a degree was Christ dejected, that in the depth of his agony he was forced to exclaim, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?……………………Thus by engaging with the power of the devil, the fear of death, and the pains of hell, he gained the victory, and achieved a triumph, so that we now fear not in death those things which our Prince has destroyed. Section 13 Next follows the resurrection from the dead, without which all that has hitherto been said would be defective. For seeing that in the cross, death, and burial of Christ, nothing but weakness appears, faith must go beyond all these, in order that it may be provided with full strength. end of my quote from “institutes of the Christian religion”, by John Calvin.
i've got quickverse so i check it myself above is what is there and if you check pp164 of hanks book, he quotes from ken hagin and ken copeland, to condemn them men, but what he uses in statements from those men, john calvin said the exact same thing in the above quote, so obviously hank either was not aware of calvins theology or he intentianily omitted it, in order to try and make a point against the 2 kens. and try to make it apear as if this topic was a metaphysical teaching. which it is not.
< Message edited by pray4all -- 4/29/2008 12:26:27 PM >
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 12:29:09 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Hey a lot of authors have staff write all or portions of their books. Is that true about "Christianity in Crisis"? I'm going to buy it someday.
He wrote the bulk of it - but like you said - organizations such as that have research teams, writers, etc.. it's a collection of work that is then published via the agreement the parties involved agreed to.
theres been some controversy on that too!!! from some of those that were involved in the book, as far as an agreement is concerned, but no need to get into that
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 12:48:19 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i've got quickverse so i check it myself above is what is there and if you check pp164 of hanks book, he quotes from ken hagin and ken copeland, to condemn them men, but what he uses in statements from those men, john calvin said the exact same thing in the above quote, so obviously hank either was not aware of calvins theology or he intentianily omitted it, in order to try and make a point against the 2 kens. and try to make it apear as if this topic was a metaphysical teaching. which it is not.
I've heard WoF preaching go beyond this into suffering at the hands of the devil(s) for three days, being offered a "burnt offering" by burnt in hell, and worse. I really don't think Calvin is going beyond the redemption on the cross being the full payment for sin. The section ten quotes seem to say that more than _merely_ a normal death took place, while the section eleven quotes would indicate a description of the suffering _on_ the cross when He said, "my God, my God...."
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 4:47:17 PM
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cybrjewls
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Sir, this OP is about Hank, not WOF'ers..... Christ was the fulfillment of the burnt offering sacrifice as written. Through Him and in Him and The Holy Spirit do His worshippers worship and offer their praises and prayers. More than the normal suffering did get overcome through Christ's trials and afflictions on the Cross at Golgatha and earthly Ministry. He suffered more than any other person, we considered Him bruised for our iniquities and crushed for our sins. The punishment that brings us peace was laid upon Him. By His Wounds are the people healed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i've got quickverse so i check it myself above is what is there and if you check pp164 of hanks book, he quotes from ken hagin and ken copeland, to condemn them men, but what he uses in statements from those men, john calvin said the exact same thing in the above quote, so obviously hank either was not aware of calvins theology or he intentianily omitted it, in order to try and make a point against the 2 kens. and try to make it apear as if this topic was a metaphysical teaching. which it is not.
I've heard WoF preaching go beyond this into suffering at the hands of the devil(s) for three days, being offered a "burnt offering" by burnt in hell, and worse. I really don't think Calvin is going beyond the redemption on the cross being the full payment for sin. The section ten quotes seem to say that more than _merely_ a normal death took place, while the section eleven quotes would indicate a description of the suffering _on_ the cross when He said, "my God, my God...."
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/29/2008 4:53:25 PM >
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 5:00:32 PM
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GrahamCracker
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I looked at the Institutes of Calvin, the passages which are referenced. It is somewhat difficult to understand. But, yes, Calvin says there was more than only physical death which occurred. Frankly, I disagree with Calvin on this.
There are some references to which some of the WOFers say that Christ became "the first born again man"--that is that Christ was born again in hell. In addition there are some references about Christ wrestling with demons in hell. They didn't get that from scripture. And I had a quote from Joyce Meyers who said that we couldn't be saved if we didn't believe that.
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Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 5:11:18 PM
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bride48
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I don't think believing Christ descending to hell is an essential point of salvation.
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DebbieLynne
See what the Lord is teaching me about suffering at Joyfully Christian Lady's Museum
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 5:14:20 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I don't think believing Christ descending to hell is an essential point of salvation.
Only when certain people say that if you must believe the following to be saved::
a) Jesus didn't complete the atonement on the cross
b) Jesus had to speak words of faith and become a born-again man
c) Satan and the demonic ruled over Jesus for three days in Hell
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 5:25:36 PM
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bride48
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Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I don't think believing Christ descending to hell is an essential point of salvation.
Only when certain people say that if you must believe the following to be saved::
a) Jesus didn't complete the atonement on the cross
b) Jesus had to speak words of faith and become a born-again man
c) Satan and the demonic ruled over Jesus for three days in Hell
All of which are pure fiction. So is Prophetica..... upset because Hanegraaf repudiates these points?
_____________________________
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DebbieLynne
See what the Lord is teaching me about suffering at Joyfully Christian Lady's Museum
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 5:45:52 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 345
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i've got quickverse so i check it myself above is what is there and if you check pp164 of hanks book, he quotes from ken hagin and ken copeland, to condemn them men, but what he uses in statements from those men, john calvin said the exact same thing in the above quote, so obviously hank either was not aware of calvins theology or he intentianily omitted it, in order to try and make a point against the 2 kens. and try to make it apear as if this topic was a metaphysical teaching. which it is not.
I've heard WoF preaching go beyond this into suffering at the hands of the devil(s) for three days, being offered a "burnt offering" by burnt in hell, and worse. I really don't think Calvin is going beyond the redemption on the cross being the full payment for sin. The section ten quotes seem to say that more than _merely_ a normal death took place, while the section eleven quotes would indicate a description of the suffering _on_ the cross when He said, "my God, my God...."
wintery maybe you should pick up the book christanity in crisis, you will notice on pp164, hank says that copeland states "Jesus death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption"
also hank condems haggin for saying he (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man, and his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place, can't you see that? physical death wouldn't remove your sins. he's tasted death for every man. he's talking about tasting spiritual death
tried to color code it a little to help out
but anyhow the point is
1) hagin did not get this from methypisical cult as hank tries to claim
2) mainstrean christanity already had this kind of theology, if one considers calvin mainstream
3)if hank knew of calvins theology he intentionally misrepresented orthodox theology (if calvin is orthodox) to attack others.
4)if hank did not know of calvins theology then perhaps he should step down from attacking others
5)it also implies hank doesn't know didley about methypiscal cult beliefs
6)hank himself is not above reproach
btw i agree i have heard some relly stupid stuff from the pulpit, from all denominations. 
it would be so much nicer if christanity could just keep it all simple as in like child like faith
the below is not in its entirity read it in its entirity for a clearer understanding
quote:
(John Calvin, institute of christian religion) I will show here, this teaching was already in the church theology, and church creed. Most of us probably have quick verse on our computers if you do, don’t just take my word for it, see for yourself, if it is there or not.What did John Calvin born 1509 say concerning Jesus entering hell and suffering spiritual torment there?? INSTITUES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, BOOK 2, CHAPTER 16, SECTION 8,HERE WE MUST NOT OMIT THE DESCENDT TO HELL, WHICH IS OF NO LITTLE IMPORTANCE TO THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF REDEMPTION!!! ……………….THIS MUCH IS UNCONTROVERTED, THAT IT WAS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE GENERAL SENTIMENT OF ALL BELIVERS, SINCE THERE IS NONE OF THE CHURCH FATHERS WHO DOES NOT MENTION CHRIST’S DESCENT INTO HELL…….The chief thing to be attended to in the creed is, that it furnishes us with a full and every way complete summary of faith, containing nothing but what has been derived from the infallible word of God. But should any scruple to give it admission into the creed, it will shortly be made plain, that the place which it holds in a summary of our redemption is so important, that the omission of it greatly detracts from the benefit of Christ’s death.
section 10, But apart from the creed, we must seek for a surer exposition of Christ’s descent to hell, and the word of God furnishes us with one not only pious and holy, but replete with excellent consolation. nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God’s anger, and satisfy his righteous judgment…………….not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price-that he bore in his soul (spirit) the tortures of condemned and ruined man.
section 11, and certainly no abyss can be imagined more dreadful than to feel that you are abandoned, and forsaken of God, and not heard when you invoke him, just as if he had conspired your destruction. To such a degree was Christ dejected, that in the depth of his agony he was forced to exclaim, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?……………………Thus by engaging with the power of the devil, the fear of death, and the pains of hell, he gained the victory, and achieved a triumph, so that we now fear not in death those things which our Prince has destroyed. Section 13 Next follows the resurrection from the dead, without which all that has hitherto been said would be defective. For seeing that in the cross, death, and burial of Christ, nothing but weakness appears, faith must go beyond all these, in order that it may be provided with full strength. end of my quote from “institutes of the Christian religion”, by John Calvin.
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/29/2008 7:27:36 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4753
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I don't think believing Christ descending to hell is an essential point of salvation.
Only when certain people say that if you must believe the following to be saved::
a) Jesus didn't complete the atonement on the cross
b) Jesus had to speak words of faith and become a born-again man
c) Satan and the demonic ruled over Jesus for three days in Hell
All of which are pure fiction. So is Prophetica..... upset because Hanegraaf repudiates these points?
From the little sense I have been able to gather from DOT DOT DOT's posts is that her/his problem with Hank is that he writes and sells book for money.
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 9:20:16 AM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
From the little sense I have been able to gather from DOT DOT DOT's posts is that her/his problem with Hank is that he writes and sells book for money.
That's what published authors do. Even Walter Martin had "Kingdom of the Cults"
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 9:25:14 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4753
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
From the little sense I have been able to gather from DOT DOT DOT's posts is that her/his problem with Hank is that he writes and sells book for money.
That's what published authors do. Even Walter Martin had "Kingdom of the Cults"
It seems he/she begs to differ.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 4:10:44 PM
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bride48
Posts: 4620
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So, my Dotted Friend, why single out Hank Hanegraaf?
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DebbieLynne
See what the Lord is teaching me about suffering at Joyfully Christian Lady's Museum
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 5:59:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: One cannot serve both God and Mammon. But as to the rich all things are possible with God. For the rich and the poor have this in common, God made them both.
Spell it out man! Are you accusing Hank Hanegraaf with monetary and material idolatry? Because he writes and sells books?
Remember, "judge not lest you be judged."
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/30/2008 6:12:31 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 8:00:01 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1392
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But its ok for Hank to condemn Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, WOFers, Charismatics, Kenneth Hagin, Copeland.....
Looks like there is more with Someone than against Him, bearing Good Fruits in the Garden of God to remain in paradise forever.....
So Catholic ('universal') of Hank to divide against all of the extraneous protestant strains, instead.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: One cannot serve both God and Mammon. But as to the rich all things are possible with God. For the rich and the poor have this in common, God made them both.
Spell it out man! Are you accusing Hank Hanegraaf with monetary and material idolatry? Because he writes and sells books?
Remember, "judge not lest you be judged."
< Message edited by ..... -- 5/1/2008 7:22:53 AM >
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 4/30/2008 8:31:16 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2162
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quote:
But its ok for Hank to condemn Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, WOFers, Charismatics, Kenneth Hagin, Copeland, and almost every teacher who ever poked their head out and said something wrong one day.....
So, the Apostle Paul was wrong to condem fase teaching in his epistles? And the major and minor prophets were wrong to condem the false teaching of their time? After all, everyone makes a mistake no and then?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 5/1/2008 6:43:13 AM
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GrahamCracker
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Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
But its ok for Hank to condemn Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, WOFers, Charismatics, Kenneth Hagin, Copeland, and almost every teacher who ever poked their head out and said something wrong one day.....
Okaaayy. So much for not answering my question.
Please pay attention. Writing and selling books IS NOT sinful nor does it violate scriptural prohibitions against idolatry. Obviously if he is promoting false doctrine, that's another issue.
Hank condemns "almost every teacher"? Come on! You don't even listen to him. If you did you wouldn't make such outlandish statements.
Mormon? JWs? WOFers? Sure, and I condemn them because they teach false doctrine. Is that a problem with you? With regard to Charismatics, Hank does not condemn Charismatics. He considers that an "in-house debate" among evangelicals.
quote:
Looks like there is more with Someone than against Him, bearing Good Fruits in the Garden of God to remain in paradise forever.....
If you could get your facts straight, and your doctrine straight, you might have something logical to say.
quote:
So Catholic ('universal') of Hank to divide against all of the extraneous protestant strains, instead.
I hope you aren't saying that Mormons and JWs are evangelicals. They "ain't."
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 5/1/2008 7:20:43 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
With regard to Charismatics, Hank does not condemn Charismatics. He considers that an "in-house debate" among evangelicals.
Hank even has a book called 'Counterfeit Revival'..... Counterfeit materialism would be nicer to perceive in someone's way of life and walk.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I hope you aren't saying that Mormons and JWs are evangelicals. They "ain't."
I only see Mormons and JW's witnessing on the streets. I never see the 'evangelicals' evangelize..... I was a stranger, and you invited me in.
With regard to their doctrine, they are false. Yet, their groups are probably growing because they put into practice the call of the 70's, which Jesus sent out to witness to the cities.....
Jesus said, you will not finish going door to door before all these things are fulfilled.....
Why, then, do those who have the false doctrine put into practice what Jesus wrote; while those who have the 'saving' faith do not.....?
Hank said on his show 'If we were willing to do for The Truth what the cults are willing to do for a lie.....'
< Message edited by ..... -- 5/2/2008 12:28:32 AM >
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 5/1/2008 7:27:09 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 1987
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
With regard to Charismatics, Hank does not condemn Charismatics. He considers that an "in-house debate" among evangelicals.
Hank even has a book called 'Counterfeit Revival'.....
um...yeah, because there are counterfeit revivals and he wants to expose them for what they are.
You cannot say that holy laughter, dog-barking, and whatever other nonsense that has gone on in some of these "revivals" is truly from God, can you?
Someone has to expose these things.
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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 5/1/2008 7:42:01 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
Looks like there is more with Someone than against Him, bearing Good Fruits in the Garden of God to remain in paradise forever.....
If you could get your facts straight, and your doctrine straight, you might have something logical to say.
Every tree that bears Good fruit The Gardener prunes so that it will bear even more fruit in its season. Every tree that does not bear Good fruit The Father cuts down and burns in the fire. For the Fruit of The Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Long suffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, and Temperance. For those that possess these things in increasing measure, there is no law. For the Spirit of the law is fulfilled. And God is Spirit, and His worshippers must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Jesus said I am The Truth and The Life.
A tree's faith cannot be separated from what the tree bears. An Apostate teaching declares that good works don't matter. The Apostle said, faith without works is dead. For every tree is recognized by the fruit that it bears. The wages that God pays sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus said I will repay everyone according to what they have done.
For whatever a person sows, that they will reap from. Those that sow to The Spirit will reap from The Spirit, those that sow to the flesh will reap from the flesh. The only thing that matters if faith expressing itself through Love. That it may be shown on the Day of Judgment that what was done was done through God. In everything we do, we do as unto The Lord. For if anything was done to the least of these, it was done to Me said Jesus.
< Message edited by ..... -- 5/1/2008 8:13:21 AM >
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RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 5/1/2008 8:10:51 AM
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earthless
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So again... what is your problem with Hank? Because anything you have remotely listed has been squashed.
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