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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/21/2008 3:04:19 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Did your wife call upon the Elders and did they annoint her with oil and pray the prayer of faith?
Thanks
RC
No, but we had plenty of prayer requests. BTW, in case you didn't catch it, it turned out to be a lab error, to which the lab readily admitted.
Oh I caught the lab error bit, I just wonder why you were not obedient to Scripture;
(Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
And also since you do not believe in miracles; why did you ask for prayer?
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 5/21/2008 3:10:32 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/21/2008 3:10:59 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Did your wife call upon the Elders and did they annoint her with oil and pray the prayer of faith?
Thanks
RC
No, but we had plenty of prayer requests. BTW, in case you didn't catch it, it turned out to be a lab error, to which the lab readily admitted.
Oh I caught the lab error bit, I just wonder why you were not obedient to Scripture;
(Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
And also since you do not believe in miracles; why did you ask for prayer?
Thanks
RC
I pray for God's will, not mine. BTW most folks claiming healing aren't being annointed with holy Wesson oil. The type of water used isn't the issue at Baptism, is it? You're putting faith in the ritual over the spirit. Worshipping the Bible over faith in God, IMHO.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/21/2008 5:40:49 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I pray for God's will, not mine. BTW most folks claiming healing aren't being annointed with holy Wesson oil. The type of water used isn't the issue at Baptism, is it? You're putting faith in the ritual over the spirit. Worshipping the Bible over faith in God, IMHO.
You may call it putting faith in ritual, but I call it being obedient to the Word of God.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/21/2008 11:15:23 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I pray for God's will, not mine. BTW most folks claiming healing aren't being annointed with holy Wesson oil. The type of water used isn't the issue at Baptism, is it? You're putting faith in the ritual over the spirit. Worshipping the Bible over faith in God, IMHO.
You may call it putting faith in ritual, but I call it being obedient to the Word of God.
Thanks
RC
It's forgetting that rituals are symbolic, not magic. Holy water isn't literally "holy", for example. The grape juice isn't really Christ's blood.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/21/2008 11:22:24 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 423
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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cow451,
quote:
I pray for God's will, not mine.
Could you explain the above to me please. If you don't pray, are you saying God's will won't be done??? Just exactly how does one pray for God's will to be done if they don't know what God's will is? And if the point of saying 'Thy will be done" is because you don't know God's will, then why pray at all? Isn't His will going to be done soverignly with or without you? Help me understand your thinking here.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 5/21/2008 11:29:17 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/22/2008 1:13:29 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 423
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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Wes,
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I cannot answer for cow, but the bible teaches us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I always pray for God's will even when I ask for help with something. After all, what I want or think I need may not be the best route.
I agree Wes, but in the verse just prior to your Matt 6:10 also says:
MAT 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. And the verses just before that one would kill every prayer meeting going on in the church today. 
cow451,
quote:
I suppose that praying would be pointless if I knew what God was going to do. If I knew that, then I could probably avoid 99% of life's difficulty.
Because of all my unanswered prayers, and the above verses, that's exactly the point I reached Cow. It seemed to pointless on my part to pray for anything that wasn't in God's will because it wasn't going to happen. And if I didn't pray for something that was 'in God's will', it was still going to happen anyway because of His soverignty. So I became frustrated and quit praying completely, for years. I adopted the attitude of "God whatever happens is your will and I just need to learn how to trust you and your will for my life." And if I ever prayed that was basically what I prayed.
But as you said Wes, "the bible teaches us to pray"...and I knew that. So what's missing in all of this? People quote all the scriptures saying we can have whatever in Jesus' name...and those scriptures are there, but then we don't get what we pray. Then we quote all the healing scriptures and watch almost none of them get healed. So if the bible says to pray but praying doesn't work 100% of the time, like scripture seems to indicate...what are we to do?
RC,
You've quoted James 5 multiple times so I have to ask you a question as a pastor/elder who believes he is fulfilling the letter of that scripture...What percentage of healings do you get? I'm going to assume it's far from 100% but if I'm wrong give me your address. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/22/2008 5:32:23 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Then we quote all the healing scriptures and watch almost none of them get healed. So if the bible says to pray but praying doesn't work 100% of the time, like scripture seems to indicate...what are we to do?
We Christians develop rituals that, over time, take on a life of their own. Prayer is often more ritual than substance. The Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9-13) doesn't contain any requests for "miracles". The only earthly request for oneself is a humble "daily bread".
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/23/2008 1:47:31 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 423
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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RC,
quote:
I have quoted James 5 a number of times because it is the definitive Scripture on handling sickness amonst believers in the Church. It is the only passage that speaks to healing in a Church setting.
I agree, but having had the elders (and multiple individuals) pray with oil for my deaf right ear, with no results, just throws a cog in one's thinking (and faith). And to see so many others prayed for 'according to James 5' and walk out unhealed to this day confirms that something is amiss somewhere. I know you can identify with where I'm coming from.
quote:
I do not keep up with percentages, I just do as God instructs in His Word, and believe His Word is truth. This almost sounds evasive RC. I said 100% which is a pretty easy statistic to remember. And if you're hitting that, believe me I'm interested in that address. 
Cow451,
quote:
Prayer is often more ritual than substance. I agree and I think that's the issue RC and you are both dealing with. Would it be safe to say there might be some ritual in both of you...all of us? Can we accept our own attempts to deal with inconsistency, from what all of us believe scripture is saying, in contrast to what we are experiencing?
Personally I'm not finding fault with anyone and yet admitting we're all at fault before God somewhere with the whole issue of prayer...and miracles IMO.
quote:
The Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9-13) doesn't contain any requests for "miracles".
If you think about it, the disciples didn't ask Jesus to teach them a prayer. They asked him to teach them how to pray. I use the prayer Jesus gave as an example, and I do not use it as a memorized ritualistic 'word for word' prayer, but as a guideline for correct prayer. And of course I still get stuck saying the 'memorized ritual', like I did Tuesday at the funeral of my wife's aunt.
So, maybe there aren't specific requests for miracles, but there is a request being made for 'daily bread'. Now you can take that to just mean a 'gut filler' or you can take that to mean 'Jesus is my living bread of life' and I need Him to bring life to an area of death in my life. Is that too far of a stretch for you personally? And what is "His will be done....as it is in heaven"? For me it means finding out His will and acting in accordance with it to bring it to pass. Didn't Jesus say He couldn't do any work without seeing and hearing it from the Father first? I think Jesus spent many anight praying on the mountain seekng the will of the Father. And then He walked it out the next day. We want to recite some perfunctual two minute prayer and still get home before the roast burns. I don't fault God for few miracles and healing, I fault us...but I keep trying.
Leaving town for a 3 day 200 mile bicycle tour with the wife, so I'll see you guys next week.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/23/2008 3:37:36 PM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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Hello All,
I'd like to say out front, that I am indeed a Cessationist: when I read the Pauline Epistles, particularly Timothy, I see clear evidence that the time of miracles, directed by the will of the Apostles/Disciples, came to an end with their deaths.
1 Tim. 5:23
"..drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities"
Further, we see other disciples having severe sicknesses, even those that nearly killed them.
Despite these illnesses, no miraculous cure was provided by anyone.
Surely were the human directed powers of God still extant, none of the examples in the Pauline Epistles would have existed.
Cheers.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/23/2008 3:51:30 PM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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Hello All,
I'd like to offer something which I do not see having been broached, concerning the topic of prayer, why we pray, and what it is for which we are supposed to pray.
When it all comes down to it, we are NOT supposed to pray for material or worldly items (in other words, the 'Prosperity Gospel' is false doctrine). The citations given on this page (11) are clear that God already knows what or NEEDS are, thus we are not to pray for material needs (or wants).
So what then? Christ tells us in the Lord's Prayer: "..Thy Will be done.." Part and parcel of that will, are the other commands from Christ: to share/spread the Gospel to any and all whom will listen.
The Pauline Epistles confirm this aspect of prayer, in that Paul tells us (as does Peter) that we should pray for spiritual understanding on how to share the Gospel with others, and for the spiritual discernment to fight Satan and his fallen angels. We are also told to pray for others, both believers and unbelievers, in coming to Christ and for their physical health.
So when it comes to praying and prayers, I heartily recommend folks to adhere to the biblical principles set forth by Christ and His Apostles-life is so much easier when we put His Will ahead of our own (go ahead, ask me how I know that, I dare you! Hint: sad experience of NOT doing His Way!).
Cheers
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/23/2008 3:57:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
RC,
quote:
I have quoted James 5 a number of times because it is the definitive Scripture on handling sickness amonst believers in the Church. It is the only passage that speaks to healing in a Church setting.
I agree, but having had the elders (and multiple individuals) pray with oil for my deaf right ear, with no results, just throws a cog in one's thinking (and faith). And to see so many others prayed for 'according to James 5' and walk out unhealed to this day confirms that something is amiss somewhere. I know you can identify with where I'm coming from.{/quote]
So you only believe what you have experienced? That is dangerous; how can you believe in Heaven, God, Jesus, etc. if you have not seen them.
quote:
quote:
I do not keep up with percentages, I just do as God instructs in His Word, and believe His Word is truth. This almost sounds evasive RC. I said 100% which is a pretty easy statistic to remember. And if you're hitting that, believe me I'm interested in that address.
I try to be obedient to Scripture and James 5 is very specific in its instructions.
If no one is healed, that is not my concern; obedience is.
But many are healed by being obedient to Scripture, I just do not keep a record for "Bragging rights" because it is not for me to brag, but to be obedient.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 5/23/2008 4:04:49 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/26/2008 10:29:18 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 349
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Well when the antichrist comes, He will do plenty of miricles for you all to enjoy.
_____________________________
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:17)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/27/2008 9:49:51 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Well when the antichrist comes, He will do plenty of miricles for you all to enjoy.
What "antichrist" are you referring to?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/27/2008 11:21:25 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 423
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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Cow451,
quote:
Were I to attempt such a feat, I would be in need of a true miracle. Have a safe and glorious trip.
Well, we didn't need a miracle but a little less rain would have sure made it more glorious. The last day was a 75 mile day and it rained on us about 60 of those miles. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
Hello All,
I'd like to say out front, that I am indeed a Cessationist: when I read the Pauline Epistles, particularly Timothy, I see clear evidence that the time of miracles, directed by the will of the Apostles/Disciples, came to an end with their deaths.
1 Tim. 5:23
"..drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities"
Further, we see other disciples having severe sicknesses, even those that nearly killed them.
Despite these illnesses, no miraculous cure was provided by anyone.
Surely were the human directed powers of God still extant, none of the examples in the Pauline Epistles would have existed.
Is it cessation or is it lack of faith? Paul also had to remind Timothy to stir up the gift in him given by laying on of hands...did that gift cease or leak out, or did Timothy just backslide a little? Paul also left Trophemius sick somewhere (I'm at my son's house in Topeka so don't have my resources handy).
I have no doubt that anyone ever got one hundred precent healing for 'whatever' reason. I believe they struggled with the same issues we struggle with...but us, more so. Even Jesus was in a town where "he couldn't do many miracles"...why not? Surely it wasn't the fault of Jesus faith or a 'time of cessasion'. But scripture said it was "their faith" that was an issue. I believe that issue still exists today. Some of you have so much faith that healing is gone that I'm sure you'll never see a miracle from your hand... and that's simply 'according to your faith'. I'm not trying to sound mean with that statement...just factual observation.
RC,
quote:
So you only believe what you have experienced? No, I'm not saying that at all. We've had people healed in our church from elders/oil and from our homegroup praying for healing. But the incidence of that happening just seems very low and beyond our control. At times, 'when I believe my faith was as strong as I believe it could have been'...nothing happened. One other time I remember in particular, I was at a youth group meeting (the only 'token' old person allowed)...I was asked to pray for the dog that one of the kids brought. I had zero interest..which was equal to my faith...to pray for this dog. But I was forced by the kids because of James 5 and being an 'elder/older'. As I was praying a mildtoast let's get it over prayer, I believe God annointed me with the 'spiritual gift of faith'. My whole prayer changed and when I was done I told the boy that dog is healed. Next time I saw him he said the Vet couldn't figure it out because he ran the lab tests 3 times and it came out negative twice. I told Josh to keep on believing. The last time I saw him the dog was still good.
quote:
But many are healed by being obedient to Scripture, I just do not keep a record for "Bragging rights" because it is not for me to brag, but to be obedient. I understand the obedience issue. And I certainly didn't expect a 100% claim from you either RC. And I didn't ask for bragging rights. I was merely figuring the cost of driving to your place versus the odds of success...I hope you understand. I do 'believe' I just need help with my 'unbelief'. 
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/30/2008 8:49:47 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 349
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(Joh 14:10-21)
The works of God that Jesus did and wanted the Apostles to perform was to speak God's Word. Teaching, preaching, rebuking and instructing. Jesus is not talking about miracles here but the words that He spoke. And they world receive the spirit of Truth from God and speak God word. The greater work is preaching and not miracles. Jesus only taught a few, but the Apostles have been teaching the world through the New Testament for 2000 years. They did the greater work, but only because they followed Jesus. People that seek after miracles have rocks in their head. People who seek after the truth have the mind of Christ.
_____________________________
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:17)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 5/31/2008 11:52:16 PM
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preachermyron
Posts: 26
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline
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RC James - you are incorrect. Many churches and demoninations are hindering God's move by believing the silly and false doctrine that the Holy Spirit baptism and the gifts of the Spirit ended when the last of the apostles died. Only problem is that we are still in the Church Age. So why would God remove these things knowing of the coming great persecution of the Church which hasn't taken place as yet? It wasn't about just the early Church and the apostles but about the entire Church to the end of the Church Age ( Joel 2:28, also Acts 2:17 ). This is not just about tongues but for empowering the Church ( Luke 24:49, also Acts 1:8 ). Note that these are in red which means that you can't deny it because it is Jesus saying it. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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