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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/4/2008 4:43:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
I don't think I am being unreasonable to ask for something tangible or something that can be investigated.
Larry,
You haven't asked for anything (tangible or otherwise). You simply passed judgment based on what you have seen in your experience.
No? Please read posts 11 and 15.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/4/2008 4:50:30 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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RC,
Let me clarify something. I was asked point blank by Him4All what I thought of your account. If you guys are going to slam me (I don't think that was your intention, at least at this point I give you the benefit of the doubt) for answering a question honestly, then then frankly I don't give a darn what you think of me. And I will say that you are all full of hot air. (It is an IF/THEN statement, not meant to be taken out of context. Please don't misunderstand me. If I were the hyper-critical sort, that would be my response.)
But if you are going to discuss this with me honestly and let me answer your questions honestly without patronizing me ("Oh, I feel sorry for you that you haven't seen any miracles like I have") then we can discuss it.
Right now, RC. I don't feel like you've patronized me and I appreciate that immensely. And I don't think Him4All has done that either. I appreciate that immensely as well. I think I should be able to look at your account in a straightforward manner and address it honestly. That's what I was asked to do wasn't it? Or was I?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/4/2008 4:52:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
You are right. I was judged and bailed out prior to those posts. My apologies.
You're certainly welcome and no offense was taken. It is also true that I have missed comment that were quite clearly posted. Here, I realize that my comments are rather forthright and may be somewhat stinging.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/5/2008 3:15:59 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1904
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quote:
How Satan works.
GH:
What does this have to do with the subject at hand? Did you mis-post by any chance?
Your statement that "Miracles are Past" is false. Signs and wonders may be past, but miracles are a present reality. That is because God is at work in this world today.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/5/2008 5:14:42 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 420
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Larry,
quote:
Larry: Everyone has their explanation. God hasn't told me. Frankly, I don't think God told him. (your comment was in regard to the charismatic preacher after his conference weekend)
A sincere question for you. Do you believe that God speaks to anyone today? If yes, do you believe he has spoken to you?
quote:
quote:
DR: I honestly don't know if that would be 'desparing hope' or just 'little faith'. Larry: And the difference is what? I know what you mean by despairing hope. But since no scripture identifies anything as such, you base it upon what?
To make sure we're on the same page, I might need a clear defintion from you concerning just what you think faith is. If I'm hearing you correctely, it sounds like 'if you don't see it' then you don't believe it happened. So is your definiton of faith substantive and objective...or is it unseen and subjective? (Or something else).
quote:
Larry: I doubt it, of course. You need to understand that I have never seen a miracle. Those who I have met and claim to have seen them are not credible people, IMHO.
By 'meeting' I assume that you must not consider this format as being a place where you've met someone credible? If that is true, then what would meet your requirement for credibility?
Larry going back to your #21 post quote:
That is circular reasoning.
I personally believe that there is a place for circular reasoning in the Christian faith. It is based upon a scripture which is said to be the basis for "The Law of Circularity". That verse is:
ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.
quote:
Larry: Isn't it possible to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God without believing charlatans are behind healings?
It absolutely is possible, but is that the limit of your defintion of faith? IOW when scripture speaks of "growing/increasing" in regard to our faith, does that mean to only believe 'more' that Jesus is the Christ?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/5/2008 7:46:08 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
(your comment was in regard to the charismatic preacher after his conference weekend)
A sincere question for you. Do you believe that God speaks to anyone today? If yes, do you believe he has spoken to you?
My answer was rather general, not in response to a particular speaker. The context of my comment was in regard to the view that greater belief in miracles yields greater miracles. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Greater gullibility also leads to more charlatans. Somehow people argue that they can tell the difference. How can they possibly tell the difference if so many of them are being deceived?
quote:
To make sure we're on the same page, I might need a clear defintion from you concerning just what you think faith is. If I'm hearing you correctely, it sounds like 'if you don't see it' then you don't believe it happened. So is your definiton of faith substantive and objective...or is it unseen and subjective? (Or something else).
There are several but I will deal with at least 2 with regard to religious discussion relevant to this thread.
1) The acceptance that something is factually true (whether or not it can be verified).
2) The trust in something or someone, dependence upon that person or that thing. His or its integrity or ability to do what he or it is supposed to do.
What you are asking me to believe is that you have seen miracles when they go against natural law. If I always see gravity pulling people on the earth, then I accept that it is a natural law that does not change under normal conditions. If a person levitates so that the law of gravity is suspended then there should be some way to investigate it just to make sure what appears to happen has indeed happened.
If I FEEL like I levitated but no one else saw it or it cannot be repeated, it is subjective (as opposed to objective) then no one is bound to believe me.
quote:
By 'meeting' I assume that you must not consider this format as being a place where you've met someone credible? If that is true, then what would meet your requirement for credibility?
Look. I like you guys and everything. But frankly I have seen a number of claims of miracles that I don't believe for a moment. Getting back to our previous exchange regarding the sloppy definitions that people subscribe to, I suspend my judgment pending something substantial. At the very least, some way to verify or investigate the alleged claims for miracles.
quote:
I personally believe that there is a place for circular reasoning in the Christian faith. It is based upon a scripture which is said to be the basis for "The Law of Circularity". That verse is:
ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.
I don't agree. But frankly, I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. In any reasoning process, you aren't supposed to begin your premise with the conclusion. We should start with some commonly agreed upon premise to arrive at a conclusion. Scripture does not always state the premise outright but often assumes it, not always in the same passage or even in the same book.
For example, Jesus chided his disciples for their unbelief. He did not chide them for failure to believe something out of thin air. He chided them for failure to believe when, time and time again He had already demonstrated miracles in front of them. IOW, there was precedent.
Likewise, Jehovah chided the Israelites for their unbelief when He had often demonstrated His power earlier. They deliberately disbelieved IN SPITE OF IT.
If you and I had together witnessed several miraculous events like the healing of the blind, a person walking on the water, whithered limbs being restored---then I continued to challenge the new ones, then you would be right to conclude that I was not interested in believing that new ones could happen.
quote:
It absolutely is possible, but is that the limit of your defintion of faith? IOW when scripture speaks of "growing/increasing" in regard to our faith, does that mean to only believe 'more' that Jesus is the Christ?
Given what I have described above, I don't think very much of your "mature faith," or whatever you call it. Apparently, you guys don't think enough of it to subject it to scrutiny. Instead, some of you are ready to stone me (not literally) for unbelief. You want me to believe something just because you claim that it happened. I have no prior objective basis to accept your claims.
(I am not sure I answered your question, but I tried. If you don't think I did, you are invited to rephrase the question.)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/5/2008 8:20:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
My answer was rather general, not in response to a particular speaker. The context of my comment was in regard to the view that greater belief in miracles yields greater miracles. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
You sorta miss the point.
It is greater faith in God and His performing His Word, not greater faith in miracles, or greater faith in faith.
Jesus taught many times on faith (and the lack thereof) as ih;
(Mat 16:8) Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
And in James 5 we recueve instructions on what to do when we are sick;
(Jam 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Please note that is the Prayer of faith that shall raise up the sick. No faith - no healing.
Larry, do you call on the Elders of the Church to annoint you with oil and offer the prayer of faith when you are sick.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/5/2008 10:22:30 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
You sorta miss the point.
It is greater faith in God and His performing His Word, not greater faith in miracles, or greater faith in faith.
I have faith in God. I do not faith in the claims that people make.
quote:
Jesus taught many times on faith (and the lack thereof) as ih;
(Mat 16:8) Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
RC,
Read a little further:
Verse 9 "Do you not understand niether remember the loaves of the five thousand ...Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand...?" He did not chide them for lack of faith---in a vacuum. They had already observed miracles in the past. He chided them for their lack of faith, already having seen things---then they still doubted.
quote:
And in James 5 we recueve instructions on what to do when we are sick;
(Jam 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Please note that is the Prayer of faith that shall raise up the sick. No faith - no healing.
I believe that I have already answered that. Shall I pray for a cold that I know will go away by itself in just a few days? Do you ignore doctor's visits? It seems to me that you do not because you have already explained that the doctor was irritated.
Further, I have already said that I believe the context is not a universal challenge to get healing. It specifically applies to healing which results from sin.
Let's keep in mind that I DO KNOW people who believe as you do. Assume I do not have enough faith, just as you say. Why are THEY not receiving the healings too? They claim to believe just as you do, yet they go through the same kinds of medical treatment that everyone else does. Surely if it were a matter of MY FAITH or LACK THEREOF, that should not be any hinderance to their healing or their miracle.
It would appear, from what you are saying, that my lack of faith is more powerful than their faith---which everyone seems to think I am weak in.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 12:46:32 AM
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hymnHIM
Posts: 131
Joined: 1/5/2008
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Ladies and gentlemen I am posting this blind, not to engage in a previous debate. I always wonder why professing Christians believe miracles have been done away with. Where is the scriptural support? The reasoning I always seem to hear is that they dont see or havnt heard of any miracles. This is along the same lines as an atheist debate that there is no God. Here is what I read in scripture. John 14:12 "most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to my Father." The works of our Lord included many "miracles". Also, where is the mention that miracles, or any spiritual gift, ended? Wouldnt something this important have some scripture saying that these have ended? Now this being said, Are there abuses? Yes there are. Do I discount scripture because of abuses? Absolutly not. Do I seek after "signs and wonders." Never, we seek after Christ alone. But in this walk, we may be privildged enough to see God's mighty hand in many ways.
God bless you all,
Dan
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 1:48:33 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 420
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Larry,
quote:
The context of my comment was in regard to the view that greater belief in miracles yields greater miracles. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Larry, what am I missing in your responses? Above you seem to be saying that seeing miracles, which would cause greater belief, is 'non sense'. But in the following comment a little later you say the disciples deserved chiding because they'd seen miracles before and therefore should have 'more faith'. Your responses seem inconsistent to me.
quote:
For example, Jesus chided his disciples for their unbelief. He did not chide them for failure to believe something out of thin air. He chided them for failure to believe when, time and time again He had already demonstrated miracles in front of them. IOW, there was precedent.
Concerning your 'faith' definition I'm puzzled. You said your two points were specific for 'our discussion on this thread', so why did you put in that last part in the parenthesis? Your whole position has been very much based upon verifiability...hasn't it?
quote:
1) The acceptance that something is factually true (whether or not it can be verified).
quote:
2) The trust in something or someone, dependence upon that person or that thing. His or its integrity or ability to do what he or it is supposed to do.
I would probably say that, for me anyway, this second definition would fit hope better than faith. Hope seems more subjective in my thinking while I see faith as being more objective according to the Hebrews definition anyway.
quote:
What you are asking me to believe is that you have seen miracles when they go against natural law.
I have to claim guilty to the above charge. But it isn't important to me that you believe I have seen them. It's really more important to me that you believe I have the same definition of a miracle as you do.
quote:
Look. I like you guys and everything.  Likewise.
quote:
Instead, some of you are ready to stone me (not literally) for unbelief.
For what it's worth Larry...I have no stones to throw, only a hope to help edify or encourage...just as I hope is your motive toward me.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 2:20:17 AM
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Godhead
Posts: 352
Joined: 1/28/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Hey Godhead,
John promised that in the latter days;
(2Ti 3:1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2Ti 3:2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(2Ti 3:3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(2Ti 3:4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(2Ti 3:5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
And I think you have reached that point.
Just proves that Scripture is true.
Thanks
RC
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
(2Ti 3:1-5)
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(2Ti 3:12-17)
RCJames. Now you said that you are a pastor, so ignorance cannot be an excuse since you should know how to use the scriptures before getting into that position. "Denying its power," has nothing to so with the supernatural, which you and your followers are so obsessed with. It is clear that these Christians will be, "lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." What is the real power then, a "Godly life in Christ Jesus," as apposed to the ungodliness of those aforementioned. A godly life is the power we all need not the supernatural. The only power you have is to deceive yourself and others in whom you spoon feed what they want to hear. You cannot heal the blind, you cannot raised the dead, you cannot heal the cripple, and you cannot speak in other languages as the Spirit give utterance, all you can do is create emotional hype, and talk in nonsensical sounds that have no meaning or benefit to anybody. Sadly it is you who this verse referse to, since amoungst othere things it says, "Deceiving, and being deceived." If I was you, I would step down from your position of Pastor, and spend every day in earnest prayer and study of scripture.
_____________________________
A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 2:25:55 AM
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Godhead
Posts: 352
Joined: 1/28/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I've witnessed to many miracles including salvation to agree that miracle are a thing of the past. I've even had the privelge of being used by God minister in this area. Maybe in your circle it a thing of the past...
There is a school near my home that is full of blind children, could you go there please and heal them all. When and only when you do that will I concede that there are gifts of healing in the Church.
_____________________________
A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 4:10:03 AM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
Joined: 1/7/2008
Status: offline
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Godhead, could u please give me scripture supporting why u think that miracles, such as the gift of healing has ceased? If u already have, I apologize for missing them.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 7:45:18 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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I went to a healing service and they passed around photos of the "healer's" hands with light emanating from them. Then my friend sent her deaf son up there to get healed. She took him to the ear doctor expecting the doctor to say, "He's healed!" He wasn't. So she took him to another healing service...and another.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 9:31:30 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Let's keep in mind that I DO KNOW people who believe as you do. Assume I do not have enough faith, just as you say. Why are THEY not receiving the healings too? They claim to believe just as you do, yet they go through the same kinds of medical treatment that everyone else does. Surely if it were a matter of MY FAITH or LACK THEREOF, that should not be any hinderance to their healing or their miracle.
It would appear, from what you are saying, that my lack of faith is more powerful than their faith---which everyone seems to think I am weak in.
Larry I never said that you lacked faith.
It is not my place to question what God does or does not do, it is only my place to be obedient to Scripture and expect (have faith) God to do what God says he will do.
And no, I do not think that you have answered if you call upon the Elders to annoint you with oil and pray the prayer of faith when you are sich; why are you dodging such a simple question.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 9:40:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
You cannot heal the blind, you cannot raised the dead, you cannot heal the cripple, and you cannot speak in other languages as the Spirit give utterance, all you can do is create emotional hype, and talk in nonsensical sounds that have no meaning or benefit to anybody. Sadly it is you who this verse referse to, since amoungst othere things it says, "Deceiving, and being deceived." If I was you, I would step down from your position of Pastor, and spend every day in earnest prayer and study of scripture.
No, I can heal no one, but the God I serve can and does, just as He promises in His Word.
As I said in the "Tongues" thread; I will have the Church pray for you this morning. That is one of the things we do is pray for cynical and confused folks.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 9:43:03 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I went to a healing service and they passed around photos of the "healer's" hands with light emanating from them. Then my friend sent her deaf son up there to get healed. She took him to the ear doctor expecting the doctor to say, "He's healed!" He wasn't. So she took him to another healing service...and another.
And does that experience negate the Word of God?
It does sound as though you ran across a WOF kook, you should have left when the photos were passed out.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 10:08:07 AM
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hymnHIM
Posts: 131
Joined: 1/5/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I went to a healing service and they passed around photos of the "healer's" hands with light emanating from them. Then my friend sent her deaf son up there to get healed. She took him to the ear doctor expecting the doctor to say, "He's healed!" He wasn't. So she took him to another healing service...and another.
This is an example of an abuse, of a "preacher" fleecing the flock. But this is not proof that miracles have ceased. No where in scripture does it say that miracles or any other gift has ceased. On the contrary, much of it is addressed in 1 Cor. I own and read John MacArthur's study bible (very good for the most part) and he explains why he believes the sign gifts are done away with. The real problem I have with it is it is based completly on opinion, to reiterate what I said earlier, that we dont see miracles in operation today. This is easlily refuted because it requires knowledge we simply dont possess. I base my understanding on scripture alone, and in a topic like this, I know God almighty would let us know that these gifts were only for a short time. Here is what I read "Pursue Love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." 1 Cor. 14:1 Not some gifts, not gifts while they last. There is no qualifier placed on the end of it. Simple. Now this being said, I do not seek after signs, like the earlier post that I highlighted, I seek after Christ alone. If we were to seek God and not these fabrications, then we would see more of all the gifts. But in todays church, it seems many only seek out of covetousness, this is also spoken of in scripture, but is a different topic. God bless each of you,
Dan
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