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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 5:25:10 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I know for a fact that God performs miracles every day. The question that keeps tugging at me is: why do churches have prayer requests for the people who are ill, downtrodden, etc.? If God will not do miracles, then why pray for healing for someone with terminal cancer, paralysis, etc.? All those prayers would be pointless.
So it's all or nothing? It's miraculous, instantaneous healing or nothing at all?
God often answered prayers in seemingly nonmiraculous ways. God answering prayers for the sick and the nonmiraculous are not mutually exclusive.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 5:33:02 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
Sure, if God wants to do miracles today. "Thy will be done." Does He want to? What is a miracle? Is a miracle being healed of cancer after you have chemotherapy? Is it being given perfect sight after being born with congenital glaucoma? Is it giving arms and legs to someone who was born without them? Just what is a miracle and which diseases will God heal and which ones go on the back burner?
A miracle is something that defies logic and man's ability to perform. Who receives a miracle? Well, that is God's providence. If a miracle creates a greater good, then so be it. After all, isn't that what the bible says? All for the greater good. A miracle does not denote character in the person who receives it.
Well, is it a miracle to be healed of your cancer after having chemotherapy? I'm not seeking to argue. My pastor was just here and he believes miracles are for today. But how do I know if something is a miracle and why do people die after being annointed with oil by the elders of the church?
If God provides our needs by giving us our daily bread, is it a miracle? If our car breaks down right after we've returned from vacation in another state, is that a miracle or an answer to prayer? If a widow finds a lost coin, is that a miracle?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 5:59:08 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2021
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From: Dallas, TX
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Let's try these things on for describing miracles (rather than defining them).
1) A miracle is an action that contravenes the normal laws of nature.
2) It cannot be confused with otherwise normal coincidental actions that might be responsible for the action. (Alleged healings that are accompanied by medical intervention would not qualify as a genuine miracle. They would be too hard to judge.)
3) There should be scrutiny of the alleged miracle so that the claims can be verified. If there are claims but no way to examine them, it's open to question.
4) If it involves technical questions (healings being examined by trained medical personnel), unbiased records should be open to examination.
5) Witnesses should be beyond bias and suggestibility. Hostile witnesses would be the best.
That's all I can think of for the moment.
A few examples.
A dead person being restored to life and not just recovery from being "clinically dead" for a few minutes.
Healing of some affliction that never restores itself.
Sudden unexplainable recovery from paralysis caused by some injury, like a spinal fracture and subsequent separation.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 6:15:11 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Larry,
We agree and we disagree. At least this has been an agreeable disagreement. And maybe we are as caught in circular reasoning as we are in circular disagreeing. I do hope that some day you see what is a bonafide miracle to you. I believe I have and I agree with you they aren't to the extent of Jesus' days...for whatever reason...and possibly for a number of reasons. From the personal testimonies and reports I've heard they are more numerous in countries less fortunate than us.
Wes,
Sorry we didn't 'ask for clarification'. But since none came forth I'm still in the same place concerning your daughter. Not trying to be unbelieving or mean...just honest.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 9:03:14 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 352
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I hope for healing should be twofold,
1: To receive an incorruptible body.
2: To put on immortality.
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1Co 15:51-54)
Until then, we have to endure the sufferings and affliction that plague our mortal and sinful flesh. It is sin that you need to be healed from, your ears open to receive the word, your eyes open that you may see salvation. You legs healed that you may walk in righteousness. The focus should not be on Miracles but on becoming a mature Christian. There are no gifts of healing in the church today. They who focus on such things do not have there eye heavenward. They focus on things below.
We should rejoice in our sufferings and afflictions, for they are rightful punishments for a vial body. Let them bring you nearer to God and further from sin. Walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. They that want healing are focused on the flesh. Our sufferings refine the body and purge it from sin. They that want to be healed want to cling to their sin and love the flesh. Poor poor flesh, how we care so much for it. A dying thing, unable to please God. Be rid of it I say. One glorious day I will be. Let the sinful flesh suffer all that it deserves. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not satisfy the lust of the flesh.
_____________________________
A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 9:11:53 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 102
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
I hope for healing should be twofold,
1: To receive an incorruptible body.
2: To put on immortality.
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1Co 15:51-54)
Until then, we have to endure the sufferings and affliction that plague our mortal and sinful flesh. It is sin that you need to be healed from, your ears open to receive the word, your eyes open that you may see salvation. You legs healed that you may walk in righteousness. The focus should not be on Miracles but on becoming a mature Christian. There are no gifts of healing in the church today. They who focus on such things do not have there eye heavenward. They focus on things below.
We should rejoice in our sufferings and afflictions, for they are rightful punishments for a vial body. Let them bring you nearer to God and further from sin. Walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. They that want healing are focused on the flesh. Our sufferings refine the body and purge it from sin. They that want to be healed want to cling to their sin and love the flesh. Poor poor flesh, how we care so much for it. A dying thing, unable to please God. Be rid of it I say. One glorious day I will be. Let the sinful flesh suffer all that it deserves. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not satisfy the lust of the flesh.
Scripture for this alleged truth?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 9:16:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2021
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Larry,
...I believe I have and I agree with you they aren't to the extent of Jesus' days...for whatever reason...and possibly for a number of reasons. From the personal testimonies and reports I've heard they are more numerous in countries less fortunate than us.
I've thought of some reasons but they all have a weakness of some kind.
1) Sin. (There was a great deal of sin among God's people during Jesus time. In some ways there was more.)
2) The time of Jesus was actually a transition time from the Age of Law to the Church Age. Dispensationalists have pointed out that miracles tend to happen during those times more often.
3) The time of Jesus was a time of impending judgment for the Jewish nation. Miracles were a way of attracting attention to the message of salvation from disaster, which they would otherwise overlook.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 9:24:54 PM
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jbow
Posts: 701
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
We should rejoice in our sufferings and afflictions, for they are rightful punishments for a vial body. Let them bring you nearer to God and further from sin. Walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. They that want healing are focused on the flesh. Our sufferings refine the body and purge it from sin. They that want to be healed want to cling to their sin and love the flesh. Poor poor flesh, how we care so much for it. A dying thing, unable to please God. Be rid of it I say. One glorious day I will be. Let the sinful flesh suffer all that it deserves. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not satisfy the lust of the flesh.
Too bad you couldn't have been around about 2,000 years ago. You could have told Jesus about this so He wouldn't have gone around healing people of all their diseases and He wouldn't have said "these signs will follow those who believe... they will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".
Edited TOS 6
J
< Message edited by Kath -- 4/8/2008 9:56:10 PM >
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 9:42:33 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2021
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Too bad you couldn't have been around about 2,000 years ago. You could have told Jesus about this so He wouldn't have gone around healing people of all their diseases and He wouldn't have said "these signs will follow those who believe... they will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".
A house divided against itself cannot stand. That was His word to people like you.
J
In about 2,000 years of church history, the occurrence of miracles has been the exception rather than the rule.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 11:47:37 PM
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bob97
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Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I have observed God healing the incurable in this age but He generally accomplishes this healing through the medical field…but not always. I’m not sure why He works in this way because the healing gets lost in man thinking he has accomplished the task
To me the story of Him4all falls into this category. God healed but man claimed the glory.
Maybe it is because God wants man to be observant and look for the blessings that He grants us. It also requires faith.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 12:17:33 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
In about 2,000 years of church history, the occurrence of miracles has been the exception rather than the rule.
It depends on whether you are focusing on signs and wonders or on God's daily miracles which are too numerous to count or mention.
God intervenes daily in human lives, to do soemthing beyond naturalistic explanations. Those interventions are indeed miracles, including the miracle of the New Birth, since God saves souls daily (or don't you believe that?).
Miracles abound, but signs and wonders were given to prophets and apostles, to establish that their message was indeed from the God of miracles:
"God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders and divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will" (Heb. 2:4).
Christians must be extremely careful in making sweeping statements such as "miracles are the exception rather than the rule". With God nothing is impossible, therefore miracles are His daily interventions with men.
Did God grant me a miracle today? Absolutely.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 6:37:07 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2021
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
God intervenes daily in human lives, to do soemthing beyond naturalistic explanations. Those interventions are indeed miracles, including the miracle of the New Birth, since God saves souls daily (or don't you believe that?).
Ezra,
That "miracle" is not what we are talking about. In the broadest sense of the term, miracle can mean anything done by God. But we are talking about activities in the natural realm that defy the laws of nature. We keep saying that, some of us anyway.
When we confuse the two, almost anything can be declared a miracle and the term itself becomes meaningless.
quote:
Christians must be extremely careful in making sweeping statements such as "miracles are the exception rather than the rule". With God nothing is impossible, therefore miracles are His daily interventions with men.
Oh. I stand by it. Not only that but I will repeat it. "Miracles are the exception rather than the rule."
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 7:45:05 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5019
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
In about 2,000 years of church history, the occurrence of miracles has been the exception rather than the rule.
I will agree with you on this one Larry.
And I will add that if folks would just believe the Word of God, and that God is watching over His Word to preform it; then it just might become the rule instead of the exception.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 8:22:49 AM
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jbow
Posts: 701
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
Too bad you couldn't have been around about 2,000 years ago. You could have told Jesus about this so He wouldn't have gone around healing people of all their diseases and He wouldn't have said "these signs will follow those who believe... they will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".
A house divided against itself cannot stand. That was His word to people like you.
J
In about 2,000 years of church history, the occurrence of miracles has been the exception rather than the rule.
I totally agree Larry and I agree wit hsome that God sometimes uses affliction to correct us or to prove us. He did it with Job, indirectly but none the less.
I really get beny out of shape when I think Christians are not believing the word of God. (Not you Larry)... I have been upset for several days because of people calling ghemselves Christians and believing evolution over creation. The same with the OP. I do not "major" in healing but I believe in it because I believe in God and I believe His word but He is also sovereign and not a puppet.
Frankly, I have seen maybe three healing miracles in my life. One in a girlfriend, one in my wife, and one at my hands by the Lord.... no four, one in me, with a physical difference in a moment of time.
I totally believe RC's account of his wifes healing because I know RC.
Then again there is a sissy talking minister who comes on TV after the Fox Sunday morning news show... Ernest Angley. That is a cat of a different color.
Larry, we pretty much agree I just think you are a lot like Thomas and there is nothing wrong with that. After all he was one of the twelve that Jesus chose so you are in good company.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 10:44:32 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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Bob 97,
quote:
I have observed God healing the incurable in this age but He generally accomplishes this healing through the medical field…but not always.
Spoken like a true fundamentalist Bob.  But then, I once had to correct one of your parishioners for making the same type of accolade to me. Claiming that, because of my profession, how wonderful it was that I had been given the Spiritual gift of healing. I corrected her saying that my heathen peers had the same degree I did and they got results too, some even get better results. There is nothing miraculous in the physical science of healthcare IMO.
quote:
I’m not sure why He works in this way because the healing gets lost in man thinking he has accomplished the task.
To me the story of Him4all falls into this category. God healed but man claimed the glory.
I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. Are you saying that the naturally super healing I talked about, with my bike wreck, was really a supernatural miracle to you, and I'm trying to take the credit instead of glorifying God?
Larry,
Your quote regarding why so few miracles.
quote:
I've thought of some reasons but they all have a weakness of some kind.
I might add that we 'claim and proclaim' all these simple verses which, seemingly, promise thta we are so connected that all we have to do is use that 'magic' name and our wishes 'become God's humble obedience to perform.' That has simply not worked in my life. But I will not place the blame for failures on God. I will bear the failure on my shoulders. I can in all honesty say: Maybe we're wrong in our understanding of scriputre and doctrine, or maybe...just maybe...dare I say this...WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FAITH!!! Is that so hard to admit...YES and AMEN...especially for fundy's IMO. After all, isn't it the fundy's who make such ridicule of the Charismatics...even here in this "Christian" forum. But at least 'some' are trying. And miracles 'in part' may be because we only "know in part".
A pastor from Africa, who was here last year, came to our homegroup. When asked why they saw more miracles his response was: When you practice more you see more. So can I add we only 'try in part' to my list. How many today won't even try because of the embarassment of looking stupid to the world and unbelieving believers, one more time? And how many who do try, give some faithless perfunctory milktoast prayer whose power can't possibly rise above the unbelieving brain it sprung from. I've done that. WHY? Because it was some 'non Sspirit led' religious expectation which conformed to our doctrinal understanding. And that's something that's hard to exchange...this thread being a perfect example.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/9/2008 10:50:48 AM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 10:44:39 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1770
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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For some who have never witnessed the healing hand of God, the process is difficult to comprehend. It is the same for those who have never experienced the quite voice of the Ruach giving us instructions or understanding; they see it as being our imagination.
It is my contention that these things occur to all of God’s people, it’s just that we don’t recognize the event.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 5:43:30 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2021
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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jbow said:
quote:
Larry, we pretty much agree I just think you are a lot like Thomas and there is nothing wrong with that. After all he was one of the twelve that Jesus chose so you are in good company.
OK, fine. I can live with that. However, keep in mind that Thomas was not denying miracles. First, he had seen Jesus do miracles numerous times. 2nd, the issue was Thomas' denial of Jesus' resurrection.
WesSavedbyGrace said:
quote:
Now I am really confused. You intimated that my daughter's recovery was not miraclous because she still has some scars. Unbelievable.
Did you post some account here that I did not read?
Anyway, to the point that I addressed. The recovery of a person in answer to prayer is not of necessity a miracle, except in the broadest sense of the term. The meaning of the word as I use it refers to an event that violates natural law. People recover from illness and sickness in the normal course of things. That's not a violation of natural law. If you prayed for your daughter and she recovered like people normally do, how is that a miracle?
I do not know what her illness was. But if it was something that people NEVER recover from on their own, or if there was medical intervention that never works, then maybe you have an argument. But the fact that there were scars makes it seem that there were residual effects and I wonder about calling it a miracle.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 6:50:32 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 352
Joined: 1/28/2006
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How many people were saved that were healed by Jesus. HOW MANY! How many followed Jesus in the hope of a physical healing, or to get food. A multitude. Yet when he spoke about the realities of the Kingdom of God. Many that followed turned away. Promising physical healing and financial reward may get people into church and praising God. But not into the Spirit. And promises are one thing, but being able to bring them to pass is another. START preaching the realities of sin, and selfishness then see how many people turn away.
_____________________________
A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/9/2008 7:01:38 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1770
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. Are you saying that the naturally super healing I talked about, with my bike wreck, was really a supernatural miracle to you, and I'm trying to take the credit instead of glorifying God?
Not at all DR...you wouldn't claim credit and neither would those close to you but what about those not closely connected. I suspect that most would just say the "miracle of modern medicine".. | | |
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