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Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 8:44:00 AM
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theo_book
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I am not a scientist, nor yet a theologian of any pedigree whatsoever. But I do have a thought about God and the age of earth.
Can you picture God sitting around an empty universe for aeons of time contemplating creation of what is, but unable to make up his mind about which things to incorporate into his new concept, earth? I can't either.
I think God is first and foremost, active. In fact, Genesis begins by telling us God is six times as active as he is restful. So I find a certain reluctance to suppose God waited a looong time to begin the creative process which resulted in me and my generation. (Touch of ego there?)
No, I like to think of God as considering his "aloneness" as lacking purpose, and almost instantaneously, saying "Let there be light." Earth and all that is soon followed in the process as revealed in the Genesis account.
That would make the earth just an infinitessimal bit younger than God himself. It matters not how old the earth is, nor yet how old God is, so long as he considers us still his children, and still sends his rain and blessings and gives us hope.
As for carbon dating, it works for science. As for chronologically dating in accord with geneological records revealed in scripture, That works for some Christians. Personally, I think it more important to consider "today, while it is called today," and so much the more as I see the day approach.
Is it reasonable to accept evolution as the cause of me? Not for me. Is it reasonable to accept the self-serving revelation of God who lays his love on me? Yup! Got MY attention right away.
Do I care what evolutionists think? Most certainly, for therein is the soul of an image of God at stake. Would I argue with evolutionists? Most certainly. And I would win.
Would that make me smart? Not at all. It would make me reflect that "There, but for God's grace and the lamb's blood sacrifice, go I."
I thank God daily for his love and care, and for the opportunities he gives me to declare his being to those who deny such with their own being.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 10:22:45 AM
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Jhud
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Interesting thoughts, but as time is a product of the universe, it is improper to suggest that God was, "sitting around an empty universe for aeons of time "; God just was, He exists outside of time, and so His existence before (causally speaking) the beginning of the universe can't be described in terms of the passage of time. The moment God created the universe would be no sooner or later than any other in God's experience.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 10:26:39 AM
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theo_book
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So you assume God created time? Reference?
God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 4/8/2008 10:37:04 AM >
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 10:28:16 AM
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DanJames
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I agree with, but do not understand, Jhud's statement.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 10:31:21 AM
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theo_book
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While it may be in some cases, I agree with the circumstance of things that I do not understand, it never is the case that I agree with a process I do not understand.
I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 10:44:16 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
So you assume God created time? Reference?
God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.
God is eternal (infinite) and unchanging. Time would not make any sense in terms of describing God, because He has no beginning and end, he just is. That’s why when Moses asked His name He simply said, “I am”. Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events; it doesn’t apply to an unchanging infinite being. Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time.
quote:
I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.
Something that is infinite and unchanging is not 'old', it just is.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 11:03:54 AM
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ta_mosquito
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If God created the universe 10 billion years ago, He was STILL "sitting around in a blank universe" for eons. Eternity past is eternity past.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 11:19:00 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So you assume God created time? Reference?
God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.
God is eternal (infinite) and unchanging. Time would not make any sense in terms of describing God, because He has no beginning and end, he just is. That’s why when Moses asked His name He simply said, “I am”. Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events; it doesn’t apply to an unchanging infinite being. Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time.
quote:
I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.
Something that is infinite and unchanging is not 'old', it just is.
First my friend, allow me to establish a frame of reference for this concept understood as "universe." It seems to reference a place of which God was outside at one point, it being not in existence pending its creation. With this I do not agree.
WHEREVER God was prior to the creation of what is, call it what you will, it still "WAS" for God WAS "there." To assert that God was "noplace" asserts God was not. For there would be of necessity, no "place" for him to "Be."
If you will examine the creation account recorded in Genesis, (I know you have done so already, but bear with me for a moment) You will see that there is referenced a "beginning" which is a reference to an activity, not to time itself. "In the beginning" refers to those activities which culminated in something becoming something else. It is a reference to a cause, a resulting change, and a conclusive effect.
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
The word that is translated "way" is "deh-rek" meaning a road, journey, direction, manner, or similar meanings. Prior to creating, God "possessed." So you see, there was something God "did" before creation. This implies "time" as being effective prior to its use in the creative process. He possessed Wisdom before the creation process began.
"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.
As we have no reason to understand how long God possessed wisdom prior to the creation process, I think it respectful to say he always possessed wisdom. "Always" is a reference to time, again, prior to the creation.
To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.
Time is necessary for ANYTHING to "be." Even God cannot "be" separate and apart from a time for "being."
And again, my freind, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 11:20:53 AM
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upNORTder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
So you assume God created time? Reference?
God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.
Time is relative to those observing it.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 12:12:28 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
So you assume God created time? Reference?
God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.
Time is relative to those observing it.
Bear that in mind as you read Genesis 1 and 2.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 1:28:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So you assume God created time? Reference? Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 2:46:28 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7604
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quote:
First my friend, allow me to establish a frame of reference for this concept understood as "universe." It seems to reference a place of which God was outside at one point, it being not in existence pending its creation. With this I do not agree.
How do you define the ‘universe’? I define it as the set of all material things that exist.
quote:
WHEREVER God was prior to the creation of what is, call it what you will, it still "WAS" for God WAS "there." To assert that God was "noplace" asserts God was not. For there would be of necessity, no "place" for him to "Be."
Well, God exists spiritually, not materially- He isn’t a product of atoms and molecules; if God is indeed infinite and omnipresent, then it doesn’t make sense to say He is in a particular place. In also would not follow that He is ‘no place’ but rather, there is no place where God isn’t.
quote:
If you will examine the creation account recorded in Genesis, (I know you have done so already, but bear with me for a moment) You will see that there is referenced a "beginning" which is a reference to an activity, not to time itself. "In the beginning" refers to those activities which culminated in something becoming something else. It is a reference to a cause, a resulting change, and a conclusive effect.
Well, no, that ‘beginning’ refers to the inception of the material universe and time; obviously not to God. Indeed, Scripture affirms that God existed casually prior to time:
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.
So certainly God is a cause, but He is a timeless cause.
quote:
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
The word that is translated "way" is "deh-rek" meaning a road, journey, direction, manner, or similar meanings. Prior to creating, God "possessed." So you see, there was something God "did" before creation. This implies "time" as being effective prior to its use in the creative process. He possessed Wisdom before the creation process began.
Actually, I think this simply means that we were ever in God’s mind, as was the knowledge of the universe. It doesn’t really have to do with ‘time’ as we understand it.
quote:
"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.
Well, the problem is that time, as we understand it, is the passage of events – things change as those events transpire, so we talk about our movement around the sun as a ‘year’ and the earth’s revolution as a ‘day’ – but God isn’t subject to such events, He isn’t defined by the passage of time. When we say God existed ‘before’ the beginning of the universe, that is a casual description, not a temporal one.
quote:
As we have no reason to understand how long God possessed wisdom prior to the creation process, I think it respectful to say he always possessed wisdom. "Always" is a reference to time, again, prior to the creation.
Actually, ‘always’ is not necessarily a reference to time – after all, how much time would ‘always’ be?
quote:
To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.
Not at all, though I will make this caveat; our view of God’s existence in terms of time has to do with our view of time itself. If time is a continuum – that is, if any point in time is equally real, and that the order of time is merely a continuum, then God can exist outside of time.
If time is dynamic, that is if the past no longer exits and the future is only potential, then God would be temporal in relation to the universe.
quote:
Time is necessary for ANYTHING to "be." Even God cannot "be" separate and apart from a time for "being."
Well, no, indeed, is something exist that is changeless, that is that always is and always will be, exists essentially outside of time, that is the passage of events in a sequence.
quote:
And again, my freind, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?
Well, if time is an aspect of the material universe, as say for example gravity is, or dimensions are, then every Scriptural reference that indicates God created the material universe is also a reference to the creation of time.
But believing that God exist in time is in a sense to subject God to something that is greater than He is; and that rather diminishes God from the way Scripture describes Him I would think.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 2:53:09 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So you assume God created time? Reference? Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.
Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity. I shall ask scriptures some questions and post the responses found therein.
Question: Did God "do" anything whatsoever prior to his creation process as recorded in Gen one?
Response: Yes. The Lord "possessed."
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, BEFORE his works OF OLD ("of old" is a reference to "time"). If his works of old included creation of heaven and earth, then his possession of Wisdom was "Before (a reference to time) his works of old (creating the heaven and earth)
Wisdom testifies to "being" prior to the earth being created, which took place in the first instance recorded in Gen 1.
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So Scripture testifies God possessed (a verb of action) prior to the creation (another verb of action).
It is my contention that a verb of action REQUIRES "time" - i.e., he possessed, he created... All of which implies the presence of time. And so far, all prior to the separation of light from darkness, and prior to the creation of sun, moon, stars. Light had not yet been separated from darkness.
Furthermore, Wisdom was not only "possessed" she was "brought forth," another action verb requiring time.
Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Are you telling me Wisdom was brought forth prior to the earth being formed?
Answer: Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Which came first, creation of Earth or bringing forth wisdom?
Which was done in light? One has testified "Light is time"
quote:
God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.
One has somewhere testified: "Light is matter, converted to energy, moving in all directions, requiring time for its very definition. What then of darkness? Is darkness anti-matter? Is it the same as light? No, my friend, light existed in time, mixed with darkness, before God ever began his creative effort with Heaven and Earth."
Are you telling me Wisdom was brought forth prior to creation of heavens?
Prov 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:"
What about prior to all those other things referenced in Gen 1?
Prov 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."
So after God brought forth Wisdom, and created heaven and earth, What form was the earth?
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
WAIT! WAIT! WAIT A MINUTE! I thought someone somewhere said "time began when light was created." Gen 1:1 said "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" Gen 1:3 said "And God said, let there be light," so if heaven and earth were created before light, and if light is time, then heaven and earth were created outside of time. And only AFTER the creation of heaven and earth did a "beginning" come into being.
Nope! Not what scripture says.
So what did God do then?
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God divided the light from the darkness, and saw that it was good. Genesis does not say God created light, he said he separated it from darkness, calling it forth into a form separate from that of being mixed with darkness.
And it does not say God created time. For time existed prior to his separating light from darkness, otherwise, God could not have "possessed" wisdom. There would have been no time for that circumstance to occur.
God did not create time, it existed for him to "Be."
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 3:03:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
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quote:
Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity. quote:
God did not create time, it existed for him to "Be." Actually, theo_book, you may want to get hold of a good commentary on Genesis to understand some of the basic grammatical constructions used in Genesis 1:1 - 2:4. Jhud is quite correct in affirming that God created the material universe including time. Anyone who thinks time must have existed for God "to Be" does not understand the concept of transcendence. God states "I AM THAT I AM", not I am because time existed for me to be!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 3:22:04 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7604
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity. I shall ask scriptures some questions and post the responses found therein.
Question: Did God "do" anything whatsoever prior to his creation process as recorded in Gen one?
Response: Yes. The Lord "possessed."
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, BEFORE his works OF OLD ("of old" is a reference to "time"). If his works of old included creation of heaven and earth, then his possession of Wisdom was "Before (a reference to time) his works of old (creating the heaven and earth)
Possessing something is tenseless. I posses the knowledge to speak English; if time were to freeze at this moment, I would still posses that knowledge. The same would be for wisdom; God of course possesses wisdom timelessly.
quote:
Wisdom testifies to "being" prior to the earth being created, which took place in the first instance recorded in Gen 1.
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So Scripture testifies God possessed (a verb of action) prior to the creation (another verb of action).
It is my contention that a verb of action REQUIRES "time" - i.e., he possessed, he created... All of which implies the presence of time. And so far, all prior to the separation of light from darkness, and prior to the creation of sun, moon, stars. Light had not yet been separated from darkness.
God always had wisdom; He didn’t ‘get’ wisdom at a point in time, it is a timeless quality of God, unless you think at some point He lacked wisdom.
The creation is a product of this wisdom and God’s will; He was casually prior without being temporally prior. To say God caused the universe to exist at a point in time, we would have to have a reference by which to determine where that point existed; how could such a point exist when there was nothing in existence but an eternal God?
And as far as the reference to Proverbs 8, I think it is important to remember the entire passage is a metaphorical description about the activity of wisdom, which is of course an aspect of God, which also existed casually prior to the existence of the universe.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 3:35:16 PM
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theo_book
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So let's see what we have "voted" that the bible teaches.
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, then created time.
Hmmmm!!!
Nope! Don't think so.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 3:56:01 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7604
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
So let's see what we have "voted" that the bible teaches.
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, then created time.
Hmmmm!!!
Nope! Don't think so.
Who said anything about voting?
And incidentally, time and the universe would have come into existence simultaneously.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 4:18:14 PM
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