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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 438
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(last vote on : 12/3/2008 8:39:54 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/22/2008 1:05:14 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1578
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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Let me get this straight.
John McCain, who has accused Barack Hussein Obama (Barack means "GOOD" and Hussein means "BLESSING;" BOTH words appear... in the OLD TESTAMENT! - to the chagrin of those here who like to harp about his name as allusions to Islam or to Islamic terrorists) of:
- being prepared to trade defeat in Iraq for an electoral victory
... doesn't know that Iraq, the country where he wants to lead America to victory in, does not border Pakistan...
... and McCain's camp, despite all this, has stated he'd withdraw our forces if Iraq wanted us to get out.
So what exactly is victory as far as McCain is concerned?
And if what Obama proposed is close to what the Iraqi government wants - getting out in 2010?
And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?"
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/22/2008 1:21:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Let me ask you this.
In other words I will not see an answer to my quesiton...
quote:
Have you ever been in a situation that was so horrific that you would do anything to not have to go back into it? Have you seen the meatgrinder that some of these men have seen? People being blown apart, some taking hours to die?
I am well aware of the horrors of war, as where those who joined the military...
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/22/2008 1:30:22 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?"
Because victory in Iraq isn't just victory in Iraq. Victory in Iraq means we will have infinite use of their territory, resources and legal system to suit the needs of our foreign policy goals. This isn't really about freedom for Iraq it's just as much about Manifest Destiny and spreading our influence in that region of the world.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/22/2008 1:46:15 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1578
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?"
Because victory in Iraq isn't just victory in Iraq. Victory in Iraq means we will have infinite use of their territory, resources and legal system to suit the needs of our foreign policy goals. This isn't really about freedom for Iraq it's just as much about Manifest Destiny and spreading our influence in that region of the world.
Which means it's an imperialistic war.
*ducking all the stones and accusations of "communist," "anti-American," etc etc etc etc etc.............
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/22/2008 4:04:16 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1578
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship
This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship. I will quote one of his military superiors:
“I love Polous. We called him ‘Majit.’ None of the interpreters use their real Iraqi names. We didn’t want anyone knowing he was an American soldier.”
“He was accepted better than any other interpreter by governors, tribal leaders, whomever we needed communication with."
Because Polous was working so closely with his colonel, he had to go through a background check by military intelligence.
“He was with me during every enemy encounter,” Sutherland said.
- Col. David W. Sutherland of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/22/2008 5:56:02 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 778
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship
This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship.
Yes of course he does, but I see nothing in the story saying he has been denied, only that there are delays, delays for everyone.
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/22/2008 6:48:25 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1578
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship
This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship.
Yes of course he does, but I see nothing in the story saying he has been denied, only that there are delays, delays for everyone.
I never said the story said he was denied. I am putting this story up to show that this Iraqi who fought for America deserves his citizenship, and that there "are delays for everyone" doesn't make his frustration or anger any less warranted - all the more since the vast majority of those who are facing delays probably didn't face bombings while translating for US military personnel in Iraq.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/22/2008 7:10:21 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I never said the story said he was denied. I am putting this story up to show that this Iraqi who fought for America deserves his citizenship, and that there "are delays for everyone" doesn't make his frustration or anger any less warranted - all the more since the vast majority of those who are facing delays probably didn't face bombings while translating for US military personnel in Iraq.
He should have known what he was getting into when he signed up. I don't recall free and automatic citizenship going to every Tom, Dick and Mohamed who helps Americans. He should go apply to Sweden or Germany or even Syria they've been more than happy to help Iraqis out of the mess we made over there.
/sarcasm off
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/23/2008 9:48:22 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3966
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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Obummer has a good set-up on Iraq. If he wins the election and Iraq goes well, he gets to claim credit. If Iraq falters, he gets to blame his incompetent predecessor.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Army criticizes itself - 7/23/2008 3:15:29 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Obummer has a good set-up on Iraq. If he wins the election and Iraq goes well, he gets to claim credit. If Iraq falters, he gets to blame his incompetent predecessor.
Far more oppourtunistic than his competition with the cry of "stay the course for 100 years!"
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 12:54:10 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I believe the government failed when they keep sending them on tour after tour after tour. That has always been my point. The counterpoint I have always got was "this is what the signed up for" which I find both true yet absurd. Only because of the complete ignorance and utter stupidity with which this administration has conducted this war are men and women forced to serve all of these tours.
Wouldn't that only give those already in the military a leg to stand on? Those who joined after the moron took office can't be much smarter than the man running the show, right? It's not like he got stupid overnight...
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My belief has been since before Dubya celebrated that major operations had come to an end was their wasn't enough troops.
Years of playing Risk and Stratego?
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Now we keep recycling the same troops over and over and over and they're human. For some or many how much are they expected to do? Never in all of my life would I ever expected US troops to be required to do more than 2 tours in any war.
That would depend on how many years they signed up for... Many in my family figured they go home once Germany and Japan were done with... No talk of tours...
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It is absolutely stupid and shortsighted on the part of the Administration to conduct it this way.
Depends... One of the problems my father faced in war was dealing with newbies... Not only did they get themselves killed they many times put others at risk...
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Hopefully for them though since they love all of these tours McCain will win the election and they can do this for another 100 years whether Iraq wants us there or not. Since that's what they signed up for, am I right war supporters?
Not speaking as a war supporter, I do support honoring one's word... Would the bible let Christian break their contract because they don't wish to play army man no more?
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 7:53:22 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Years of playing Risk and Stratego?
No I just listened to Bush, Powell and the rest in 1991, followed the 80s war and learned for myself. So yeah I listened to Republicans and that helped shape my opinion. That is probably my problem though isn't it?
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That would depend on how many years they signed up for... Many in my family figured they go home once Germany and Japan were done with... No talk of tours...
They serve tours until we say they're done serving tours. Over 58,000 troops have served passed their enlistment which is what they signed up to do-serve as many tours, as many days for as many years as we tell them.
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Not speaking as a war supporter, I do support honoring one's word... Would the bible let Christian break their contract because they don't wish to play army man no more?
Where have I ever advocated that? I have never condoned anywhere that soldiers should break their contract. I am condemning a shortsighted admnistration for wearing some of these men and women down. I have posted articles and sources for 2 years on this. The fact that our government would expect our men and women to serve more than 1 tour to me is absurd. But hey they signed up for never ending tours for as long and as many as the government chooses to send them.
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Depends... One of the problems my father faced in war was dealing with newbies... Not only did they get themselves killed they many times put others at risk...
If the officers of our armed forces are incapable of dealing with draftees, instilling the training, knowledge and discipline into them needed to do their jobs then honestly they deserve to go shovel manure in Louisianna and we need to replace them with officers who can. Our soldiers were green when they went into Baghdad initially. If they served in Afghanistan first they were green when they drove the Taliban out of Kabul. There comes a point where soldiers cease to be battle hardened and become war weary. Is that good?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 1:14:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
No I just listened to Bush, Powell and the rest in 1991, followed the 80s war and learned for myself.
80's war?
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They serve tours until we say they're done serving tours. Over 58,000 troops have served passed their enlistment which is what they signed up to do-serve as many tours, as many days for as many years as we tell them.
When you join the military you obligate yourself beyond the 4 or 6 years, that's common knowledge...
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Where have I ever advocated that?
I have never condoned anywhere that soldiers should break their contract.
So you believe they should honor their contract?
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I am condemning a shortsighted admnistration for wearing some of these men and women down. I have posted articles and sources for 2 years on this. The fact that our government would expect our men and women to serve more than 1 tour to me is absurd. But hey they signed up for never ending tours for as long and as many as the government chooses to send them.
1 tour? Btw, they did sign up for it...
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If the officers of our armed forces are incapable of dealing with draftees, instilling the training, knowledge and discipline into them needed to do their jobs then honestly they deserve to go shovel manure in Louisianna and we need to replace them with officers who can.
Sure thing, Napoleon... The field of battle is a great place to train them... Of course that means your medics will surely get some more training as well... Have you ever served in battle?
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Our soldiers were green when they went into Baghdad initially.
They were not draftees forced into battle after boot camp with little or no real training...
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If they served in Afghanistan first they were green when they drove the Taliban out of Kabul. There comes a point where soldiers cease to be battle hardened and become war weary. Is that good?
Depends... At the rate you're going in a few posts you'll have a tour of duty down to a week...
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 1:27:16 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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Most of us do believe that a person should honor their contracts, unless of course said contract involves disobeying God but that's another matter.
However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on.
That's the responsibility of the Commander in Chief and of the people.
We know some of these things have happened and incidents of them are on the rise. So the question is what do we do about it because something is seriously wrong.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 1:59:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on.
There hasn't been a war or a conflict where soldiers haven't done something like the above to get out of serving...
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 2:02:42 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on.
There hasn't been a war or a conflict where soldiers haven't done something like the above to get out of serving...
John
And this is countering my point how?
It goes to the question of tour length. The standard is supposed to be 12 months on, 24 months off to give the soldier time to come down from being in such a hypertensive situation. At the moment we aren't giving them anywhere near the time that is required, by our own military code, to do so. We keep sending them back, again and again and again, with no relief. Is it any wonder that some are taking drastic means to not have to go back?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 2:32:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
And this is countering my point how?
It's nothing new... it's not some recent devolopment...
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It goes to the question of tour length.
Really... If that's the case during WWII when men spents years straight fighting in condition at worse are worse than Iraq should have acted out in numbers unheard off...
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The standard is supposed to be 12 months on, 24 months off to give the soldier time to come down from being in such a hypertensive situation. At the moment we aren't giving them anywhere near the time that is required, by our own military code, to do so.
What military code are you speaking of? UCMJ?
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We keep sending them back, again and again and again, with no relief. Is it any wonder that some are taking drastic means to not have to go back?
What is the percentage? I know quite a few serving having served myself and being from a military family and from conversation the percentage of people bailing out is pretty much on par with what goes on during a conflict... Some people shouldn't join... They like to play army man, but when the you know what hits the fan they only joined to pay for school...
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 2:39:18 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
80's war?
That war Iraq fought in the '80s?
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1 tour? Btw, they did sign up for it...
And you are right. I have acknowledged that. Thanks for pointing out what I have said several times. : ) Has it sunk into your head yet all the times I said it and you have repeated it back to me? ; )
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Sure thing, Napoleon... The field of battle is a great place to train them... Of course that means your medics will surely get some more training as well... Have you ever served in battle?
How much battle experience did they have when we first went over there? They did pretty good in my book.
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Depends... At the rate you're going in a few posts you'll have a tour of duty down to a week...
I have said no such thing. Ever. I have never complained about the 12 month, 13 month or the 15 month tour. Ever. There's a search function in CW where you can take a couple of minutes to show me where I said any of this and you can perhaps re-enlighten me. : )
So what has been my point? That serving multiple tours over and over with lack of time off is asking too much of many of our soldiers. I have linked to articles of this. The military admits it, the physicians and doctors who deal with some of these soldiers admit it, the counselors who deal with the families and children of these soldiers admit it even Dubya has admitted it.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 2:55:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
That war Iraq fought in the '80s?
The dynamics of that war has what to do with the matter at hand? That war was more like WWI
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And you are right. I have acknowledged that. Thanks for pointing out what I have said several times. : ) Has it sunk into your head yet all the times I said it and you have repeated it back to me? ; )
Just making sure... And when you say 1 tour are you speaking of only front line troops are everybody who is in country?
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How much battle experience did they have when we first went over there? They did pretty good in my book.
Of course they did, they fought in a conventional manner against a force that had no air support, was for most part completely surrounded and a foe that had been already soundly defeated prior... As well a good part of the leadership hand been around for the first Gulf War…
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The military admits it, the physicians and doctors who deal with some of these soldiers admit it, the counselors who deal with the families and children of these soldiers admit it even Dubya has admitted it. Why take it out on me that you can and do care less?
What is being taken out on you? I know more than a few folks fighting in Iraq and they don't speak of this... Maybe they are more the professional solider type...
John
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RE: War in Iraq - 7/24/2008 3:41:26 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Just making sure... And when you say 1 tour are you speaking of only front line troops are everybody who is in country?
I would say everyone in the country because there really isn't a front line.
I didn't like the sound of that last quote so I edited a little bit because it sounded too harsh. Since you got the snippet you struck me as being a bit angry or something over this. I just swung onto graveyard shift this week to so I can be easily offended and such so I yanked that part of the quote. No one's fault you know I did decide to work at a swing shift shop. ; )
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The dynamics of that war has what to do with the matter at hand? That war was more like WWI
Part of the dynamic was they would drag this out a very long time. Part of it was the brutal force of Saddam that held the country together and without it the country would be destabilized. It was also believed that if Iran would have won and Saddam would have been removed that a friendly to Tehran government would take its place.
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Of course they did, they fought in a conventional manner against a force that had no air support, was for most part completely surrounded and a foe that had been already soundly defeated prior... As well a good part of the leadership hand been around for the first Gulf War…
The troops that fought the insurgency started out green and our command was green and had no idea how to handle this. Putting in some new faces I don't see would have made that big of a difference in the first couple years of the war. When one considers that Centcom was preparing the victory parades and drawing down of the forces in 2003 it becomes obvious that everyone in charge was clueless so the troops wouldn't have had special training for the post Saddam conflicts anyway.
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I know more than a few folks fighting in Iraq and they don't speak of this... Maybe they are more the professional solider type...
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