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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/17/2008 9:15:54 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
If you follow the lineage of Adam through Abraham,you will find aliens,and the righteous seed.
I'll qualify this later if you need me to.Jesus in John 10 talks about the thief and robber and the hireling that caused the sheep to be scattered,and attacked.
He talks about himself as the good shepherd that knows his sheep,and who know him.
Jesus came to save seek those who were lost.I believe lost refers to the righteous seed,who up until he arrived were scattered,or not gathered together.
It's a pretty detailed thought to have to type out.So I'm missing a lot of detail here.Suffice it to say that I'm seeing a righteous line of people that God is gathering,some might call it the elect.
These are the ones who will be saved,while the remainder continue to be alienated.
I know this sounds harsh,and unfair but I see it in the genealogy as well as the blessings and curses passed on to lines of people and their descendants.
perhaps we are moving away from the op but maybe not, there is some relationship between election and freewill. so you understand election to be individual and not corprate. iow as you look at the passages that speak to this group and see it as calling out individuals and not nations. can you give me some specific passages so we have something to look at?
I would like to try and find some time today to put a post together that's forum friendly I.E. reader friendly.I may have to do it in sections though.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/17/2008 10:07:50 AM
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Conquered
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Yes! The difference being... lost is in the eternal plain as in where the soul will reside and it is our choice where that will be. Alienation exists only in the human reality.
Not so. Alienation exists only in the spiritual reality. There will be those who are cut off from the presence of God, alientated from God forever. What is more permanently real than that?
Again, since we did not have the luxury of choice to be born into this temporal realm, what gives us licence to assume we somehow will have the choice to be born into the eternal? If we think we choose, it's only because we now have the capability to turn from sin, to choose against it already given to us by the Holy Spirit and so the choice has already been made for us, by our Beautiful, Matchless and Ever-Loving Savior.
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matthew 11:27 (emphasis mine)
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/17/2008 10:13:46 AM
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Conquered
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Just the fact that you're offered the option to 'choose God's Will' is free-will.
Only if who are given the ability to choose can choose.
There are many in society today who are offered the option to obey the laws of our nation and yet cannot help but break them in favor of their own lusts, pride or addictions. You and I are no different when it comes to God's law, and unless he sets us free by giving us the ability to choose we will never choose him, though we are offered the Gospel all day every day.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/17/2008 5:26:30 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Definition of lost: having gone astray or missed the way; bewildered as to place, direction, etc.: lost children.
Alienated:# To cause to be transferred; turn away: "He succeeded . . . in alienating the affections of my only ward" (Oscar Wilde).
Estranged: to turn away in feeling or affection; make unfriendly or hostile; alienate the affections of: Their quarrel estranged the two friends.
2. to remove to or keep at a distance: The necessity for traveling on business has estranged him from his family.
3. to divert from the original use or possessor.
Jesus came to save those who were lost.Lost is tied to already belonging.Alienated,is tied to alien,which is:a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.
3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.
If you follow the lineage of Adam through Abraham,you will find aliens,and the righteous seed.
I'll qualify this later if you need me to.Jesus in John 10 talks about the thief and robber and the hireling that caused the sheep to be scattered,and attacked.
He talks about himself as the good shepherd that knows his sheep,and who know him.
Jesus came to save seek those who were lost.I believe lost refers to the righteous seed,who up until he arrived were scattered,or not gathered together.
i have been thinking about this and this passage in ephesians 2 came to mind
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
paul was writing to saved gentiles who began as strangers and aliens. not sure but it seems to be related to what you are trying to formalize.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 1:25:07 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
i have been thinking about this and this passage in ephesians 2 came to mind
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
paul was writing to saved gentiles who began as strangers and aliens. not sure but it seems to be related to what you are trying to formalize. Great catch Mark,I also thought of the verse in Galatians 5 vs 4 NIV You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ;you have fallen away from grace.
There's a lot that can be said about this verse alone,but I want to move on to the post I said I'd try to make.
I posted earlier about Exodus 11& 12 Where God caused the plagues upon Pharaoh and Egypt.The last plague is really significant in that it perfectly shadows what God does on behalf of believers.When God killed the firstborn males and animals of the Egyptians,while sparing Israel.He said was to put a difference between Egypt and Israel.
When you consider the fact that God before this last and final plague said that he hardened Pharaoh's heart,so that it was not necessary that God should cause this to happen to him.God hardened him for this express purpose.To perfectly illustrate his divine judgment,and provision for his elect.
God chose between Israel and Egypt and spared not even the firstborn of their animals.I see clearly the two classifications of people here.God's chosen and the wicked.
When Adam had two sons,one was accepted and the other rejected.Now we're talking offerings here;however we are also talking about the nature of the heart of each one as well.The heart that caused one to give God what was required and the other who,missed the mark.
After Cain slew Abel,Adam had a second son named Seth.Seth was significant as he represented a return of the righteous seed of Abel.It is through Seth that Noah was born.Noah and his family being the only family God saved on the earth,once again illustrates how God saves his righteous line and judges everyone else.
When Noah had his three sons he gave specific blessings to each child,Shem was promised that his people would have the favor of God.Shem's line produced Abraham,who we know as the Father of us all Spiritually,by way of the righteous seed of faith.
After Abraham cut covenant with God two specific events occurred that has had lasting ramifications.God began the process of election,producing the elect of God,and he established a righteous seed of faith,not of works or physical birthright,but of faith through grace.
Abraham had Ishmael who was not the free man,but the bond man,It was Issac who was the free man,which again highlights the two types of people on the earth.Jesus when he challenged the Pharisees legitimacy of birthright,said something very interesting.
He said and the servant abideth not in the house forever;but the Son abideth forever.Ishmael born of the bondwoman was cast out,while Issac born of the free woman remained.They were both Abraham's seed,yet as Paul acknowledged and Jesus alluded to, not all Israel is of Israel,Nether because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children,but in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Jesus was telling them in plain language that they were not children of God.They were not the righteous seed.Rather they were after the nature of the cast out son,the alien.Jesus said if you can't hear me that is, understand me and respond to my voice it is because you are not of God.
Jesus further illustrates this point when gives the parable of the sheep.Jeus said that his sheep know his voice and he knows his sheep.Jeus said he came to seek and to save those who were lost.Jesus said the sheep were scattered after the hireling shepherd left them in the hands of the wolf that scattered them.
Jesus gathered the lost sheep of Israel,than he went after the one that was not of the fold that he must also bring in the pen.This leads me to the second significant thing which happened after Abraham.God choosing Jacob over Esau that election might stand of him that calls,not of works.
That is, it is Gods choosing not ours.Just like the children of Israel in Exodus 11,God chose them to save them.It is no different now God chooses us.Get this, every time Moses went to Pharaoh he said tell him to let my people Go,knowing that he wouldn't and couldn't.Because God raised him up for the express purpose of making an example of him,and showing off his power and sovereignty.
God tells all men to choose him,and believe on him when he knows that only his righteous seed will be able to.I don't expect anyone to buy into what I'm saying/seeing.I'm perfectly willing to be looked upon as off my rocker,and I always hold out room for the fact that I can be flat out wrong.
But until last week I thought genealogies were nearly pointless,now I see just how significant the details are.There's a lot more to be said,still a lot of details left out in the interest of brevity,although this post is not exactly brief.I'm doing my best to put it into bite size pieces.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 6:20:07 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I posted earlier about Exodus 11& 12 Where God caused the plagues upon Pharaoh and Egypt.The last plague is really significant in that it perfectly shadows what God does on behalf of believers.When God killed the firstborn males and animals of the Egyptians,while sparing Israel.He said was to put a difference between Egypt and Israel.
do you see this as an individual election of each israelite, or the election of a nation? if it is individual election were all the israelites elect or only part? if only part why were they all saved during the final plague?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 6:39:03 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I posted earlier about Exodus 11& 12 Where God caused the plagues upon Pharaoh and Egypt.The last plague is really significant in that it perfectly shadows what God does on behalf of believers.When God killed the firstborn males and animals of the Egyptians,while sparing Israel.He said was to put a difference between Egypt and Israel.
do you see this as an individual election of each israelite, or the election of a nation? if it is individual election were all the israelites elect or only part? if only part why were they all saved during the final plague?
I see this as a type/shadow of our reality Mark as many exist throughout scripture.It points to the elect although in this specific situation election applied to Israel only,and the judgment applied to the firstborm male of men and animals of Egypt only.The broader context is a picture of God's elect being spared his wrath through the blood,or Jesus whereas the world the unsaved world,I.E. Egypt will not be spared.
Election as we now know it is not reserved for the Jew who is one by natural birth,but by spiritual birth.The "world" remains as anyone outside of the Jewish seed,or outside of covenant relationship with God.
So all you have are two. The chosen,Gods elect,and the world.A righteous seed ,and an unrighteous seed.Remember Japheth descendants would be blessed through Shem's people.The Gentiles were grafted into the natural olive branch.
Ham's descendants were excluded altogether.They were alienated.So we have two people again.The lost,and the alien.
The lost are found,while the alien remain alienated.The same was true even from the time of Cain and Abel.Cain and his descendants were not the righteous seed.In fact after Seth's descendants began to intermix with Cains descendants God took them all off the face of the earth with exception of Noah and his family which was from the righteous line of Seth.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 8:23:58 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I see this as a type/shadow of our reality Mark as many exist throughout scripture.It points to the elect although in this specific situation election applied to Israel only,and the judgment applied to the firstborm male of men and animals of Egypt only.The broader context is a picture of God's elect being spared his wrath through the blood,or Jesus whereas the world the unsaved world,I.E. Egypt will not be spared.
many of those israelites who were spared in egypt perished in the desert. this is one of the reasons that i see this as the election of a nation and not individuals, unless the elect can lose that election.
quote:
Election as we now know it is not reserved for the Jew who is one by natural birth,but by spiritual birth.The "world" remains as anyone outside of the Jewish seed,or outside of covenant relationship with God.
So all you have are two. The chosen,Gods elect,and the world.A righteous seed ,and an unrighteous seed.Remember Japheth descendants would be blessed through Shem's people.The Gentiles were grafted into the natural olive branch.
Ham's descendants were excluded altogether.They were alienated.So we have two people again.The lost,and the alien.
The lost are found,while the alien remain alienated.The same was true even from the time of Cain and Abel.Cain and his descendants were not the righteous seed.In fact after Seth's descendants began to intermix with Cains descendants God took them all off the face of the earth with exception of Noah and his family which was from the righteous line of Seth.
the gentiles were thought of as aliens and strangers and not lost sheep. i would cite again from eph 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
this passages seems to paint an image of gentiles who are saved as starting off in life more than just lost. they were strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
compare this to God's description of Israel from isaiah 5
1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard. My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill. 2 He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
this description of israel seems to speak to a chosen people much more so than paul's description of the gentiles
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 10:25:41 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 653
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I see this as a type/shadow of our reality Mark as many exist throughout scripture.It points to the elect although in this specific situation election applied to Israel only,and the judgment applied to the firstborm male of men and animals of Egypt only.The broader context is a picture of God's elect being spared his wrath through the blood,or Jesus whereas the world the unsaved world,I.E. Egypt will not be spared.
many of those israelites who were spared in egypt perished in the desert. this is one of the reasons that i see this as the election of a nation and not individuals, unless the elect can lose that election.
quote:
Election as we now know it is not reserved for the Jew who is one by natural birth,but by spiritual birth.The "world" remains as anyone outside of the Jewish seed,or outside of covenant relationship with God.
So all you have are two. The chosen,Gods elect,and the world.A righteous seed ,and an unrighteous seed.Remember Japheth descendants would be blessed through Shem's people.The Gentiles were grafted into the natural olive branch.
Ham's descendants were excluded altogether.They were alienated.So we have two people again.The lost,and the alien.
The lost are found,while the alien remain alienated.The same was true even from the time of Cain and Abel.Cain and his descendants were not the righteous seed.In fact after Seth's descendants began to intermix with Cains descendants God took them all off the face of the earth with exception of Noah and his family which was from the righteous line of Seth.
the gentiles were thought of as aliens and strangers and not lost sheep. i would cite again from eph 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
this passages seems to paint an image of gentiles who are saved as starting off in life more than just lost. they were strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
compare this to God's description of Israel from isaiah 5
1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard. My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill. 2 He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
this description of israel seems to speak to a chosen people much more so than paul's description of the gentiles
Hey John I feel like you're setting up an argument that isn't there.Let's first come to agreement,or disagreement with the premise I bring forth.Can you see what I am saying?Yes or No.If no why?If yes how?
The points you just raised here are not even up for argument.They neither add,nor take away from the overall premise I bring to you.Can we for now just deal with what you hear me saying and see whether we agree or not and why?
To your point though, since you already brought it up.The Gentiles as a whole were indeed alienated at one time,which actually goes to my point;because either you're a child of God or you're not,and if you are a child of God it's not because of your initiative,but God's.The case of the Gentiles is a perfect illustration of this.
However Jesus said he came to save those who were lost.Look at Luke chp 19 vs 1-9 It is a beautiful story which I will paraphrase.Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus ,but was having difficulty seeing him as he was to short.Come to find out all the effort he made to see Jesus fearing he would miss him,Jesus spotted him and said I MUST stay at your house today.We don't seek God,God seeks us.
Zacchaeus accepted Jesus whole heartedly without any mention of Jesus saying anything to him;But Jesus said to him in response Today salvation has come to this house because this man too,is a son of Abraham.For the son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.
Now to the alienated Gentiles.Jesus said he was the good shepherd,who knows his sheep,and whose sheep know him,hear him,responds to him.He said I have other sheep that are not of this pen.I must BRING them also.
Who were the other sheep?Did he have to BRING them,or did they have to FIND him?
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/18/2008 10:32:35 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/18/2008 10:45:27 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
many of those israelites who were spared in egypt perished in the desert. this is one of the reasons that i see this as the election of a nation and not individuals, unless the elect can lose that election.
I neglected to respond to this portion of your post.Hebrews 8vs 9:In the day that I took them (en hmerai epilabomenou mou). Genitive absolute (mou and second aorist middle participle of epilambanw), "a Hellenistic innovation" (Moffatt) in imitation of the Hebrew after hmerai in place of en h epelabomen, occurring also in Barn. 2:28. By the hand (thß ceiroß). Technical use of the genitive of the part affected. To lead them forth (exagagein autouß). Second aorist active infinitive of exagw to denote purpose. For they continued not (oti autoi ouk enemeinan). First aorist active indicative of emmenw, old verb to remain in (Hebrews 14:22). The Israelites broke the covenant. Then God annulled it. I regarded not (hmelhsa). "I neglected" as in Hebrews 2:3. The covenant was void when they broke it.
vs 13 In that he saith (en twi legein). Locative case of the articular present active infinitive of legw, "in the saying as to him." He hath made the first old (pepalaiwken thn prwthn). Perfect active indicative of palaiow, old verb from palaioß (in contrast with kainoß, fresh, new), to treat as old and out of date. The conclusion is to the point. That which is becoming old and waxeth aged (to palaioumenon kai ghraskon). Ghraskw is old verb from ghraß (age) like gerwn (old man) and refers to the decay of old age so that both ideas appear here in opposition to kainoß (palaioß) and neoß (geraioß). Is nigh unto vanishing away (egguß apanismou). Genitive case with egguß and late word for disappearance (from apanizw, Matthew 6:19), here only in the N.T. The author writes as if the Old Testament legal and ceremonial system were about to vanish before the new covenant of grace. If he wrote after A.D. 70, would he not have written "has vanished away"?
What say you?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 1:49:59 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Hey John I feel like you're setting up an argument that isn't there.Let's first come to agreement,or disagreement with the premise I bring forth.Can you see what I am saying?Yes or No.If no why?If yes how?
maybe i am misunderstanding you. i think you are saying that there are two types of people, those that belong to Christ and those that dont. i agree.
where i may be confused is i am understanding you to say that those who are the elect but not yet saved are lost, not alienated. i would understand those israelites who are not saved to be lost. but i would not agree that those gentiles who are not yet saved are lost in the sense the israelites are lost, they are alienated per eph 2. i see a differnce betweeen the two groups.
the other part that i am looking at may be putting the cart before the horse. i see election of nations and election of individuals to service/purpose, but i dont see election to salvation.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 2:06:07 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I neglected to respond to this portion of your post.Hebrews 8vs 9:In the day that I took them (en hmerai epilabomenou mou). Genitive absolute (mou and second aorist middle participle of epilambanw), "a Hellenistic innovation" (Moffatt) in imitation of the Hebrew after hmerai in place of en h epelabomen, occurring also in Barn. 2:28. By the hand (thß ceiroß). Technical use of the genitive of the part affected. To lead them forth (exagagein autouß). Second aorist active infinitive of exagw to denote purpose. For they continued not (oti autoi ouk enemeinan). First aorist active indicative of emmenw, old verb to remain in (Hebrews 14:22). The Israelites broke the covenant. Then God annulled it. I regarded not (hmelhsa). "I neglected" as in Hebrews 2:3. The covenant was void when they broke it.
vs 13 In that he saith (en twi legein). Locative case of the articular present active infinitive of legw, "in the saying as to him." He hath made the first old (pepalaiwken thn prwthn). Perfect active indicative of palaiow, old verb from palaioß (in contrast with kainoß, fresh, new), to treat as old and out of date. The conclusion is to the point. That which is becoming old and waxeth aged (to palaioumenon kai ghraskon). Ghraskw is old verb from ghraß (age) like gerwn (old man) and refers to the decay of old age so that both ideas appear here in opposition to kainoß (palaioß) and neoß (geraioß). Is nigh unto vanishing away (egguß apanismou). Genitive case with egguß and late word for disappearance (from apanizw, Matthew 6:19), here only in the N.T. The author writes as if the Old Testament legal and ceremonial system were about to vanish before the new covenant of grace. If he wrote after A.D. 70, would he not have written "has vanished away"?
What say you?
my point was that israel wasnt elected to salvation, they were elected to a service/purpose as a nation. this is where i may be getting ahead of you.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 3:32:27 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Hey John I feel like you're setting up an argument that isn't there.Let's first come to agreement,or disagreement with the premise I bring forth.Can you see what I am saying?Yes or No.If no why?If yes how?
maybe i am misunderstanding you. i think you are saying that there are two types of people, those that belong to Christ and those that dont. i agree.
So we agree here.OK
where i may be confused is i am understanding you to say that those who are the elect but not yet saved are lost, not alienated. i would understand those israelites who are not saved to be lost. but i would not agree that those gentiles who are not yet saved are lost in the sense the israelites are lost, they are alienated per eph 2. i see a differnce betweeen the two groups.
You have clearly identified what I am saying Mark.The gentiles were only alienated until Christ died,remember he said if he be lifted up he would draw all men unto him.All meaning of every nation to include the Gentile.
the other part that i am looking at may be putting the cart before the horse. i see election of nations and election of individuals to service/purpose, but i dont see election to salvation.
I do see election to salvation.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 3:34:11 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 653
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I neglected to respond to this portion of your post.Hebrews 8vs 9:In the day that I took them (en hmerai epilabomenou mou). Genitive absolute (mou and second aorist middle participle of epilambanw), "a Hellenistic innovation" (Moffatt) in imitation of the Hebrew after hmerai in place of en h epelabomen, occurring also in Barn. 2:28. By the hand (thß ceiroß). Technical use of the genitive of the part affected. To lead them forth (exagagein autouß). Second aorist active infinitive of exagw to denote purpose. For they continued not (oti autoi ouk enemeinan). First aorist active indicative of emmenw, old verb to remain in (Hebrews 14:22). The Israelites broke the covenant. Then God annulled it. I regarded not (hmelhsa). "I neglected" as in Hebrews 2:3. The covenant was void when they broke it.
vs 13 In that he saith (en twi legein). Locative case of the articular present active infinitive of legw, "in the saying as to him." He hath made the first old (pepalaiwken thn prwthn). Perfect active indicative of palaiow, old verb from palaioß (in contrast with kainoß, fresh, new), to treat as old and out of date. The conclusion is to the point. That which is becoming old and waxeth aged (to palaioumenon kai ghraskon). Ghraskw is old verb from ghraß (age) like gerwn (old man) and refers to the decay of old age so that both ideas appear here in opposition to kainoß (palaioß) and neoß (geraioß). Is nigh unto vanishing away (egguß apanismou). Genitive case with egguß and late word for disappearance (from apanizw, Matthew 6:19), here only in the N.T. The author writes as if the Old Testament legal and ceremonial system were about to vanish before the new covenant of grace. If he wrote after A.D. 70, would he not have written "has vanished away"?
What say you?
my point was that israel wasnt elected to salvation, they were elected to a service/purpose as a nation. this is where i may be getting ahead of you.
Abraham was elected as was Israel,and for that matter Israel is still elected to salvation,only now included in Israel is you and me the Gentiles,Isralel is not Israel by human birth,but spiritual birth.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 4:10:37 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Abraham was elected as was Israel,and for that matter Israel is still elected to salvation,only now included in Israel is you and me the Gentiles,Isralel is not Israel by human birth,but spiritual birth.
so if we go back to israel in eygpt, when God passed over all of the first born of physical israel, they were not all included in spiritual israel were they? those who rebelled in the desert died before crossing into the promised land. all those men over 20 yrs old except for joshua and caleb died in the desert.
i dont see any salvation for those who died. their purpose seems more in line with God showing pharoah/eygpt His power, an election to a purpose.
in romans 11 paul writes
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich Froot of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
some of the natural branches were broken off, they were part of the holy root, but were broken off for unbelief. i see these as people of israel who never believed, but they were part of the elect nation of israel.
then paul turns to the gentiles and warns them that they too can be broken off because God has already shown that He will break off branches via israel. i see this as God now using the gentile nation to bring back israel. those gentiles who are broken off are part of God's chosen people, the gentiles who dont have faith.
so i dont see either group as elected to salvation because in each group some lost that salvation. i see two groups elected by God to present God to the world. first israel was chosen to show God to the gentiles, then the gentiles were chosen to show God to israel.
if you see individual election to salvation who are those in both groups who are broken off?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 5:32:45 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 653
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Abraham was elected as was Israel,and for that matter Israel is still elected to salvation,only now included in Israel is you and me the Gentiles,Isralel is not Israel by human birth,but spiritual birth.
so if we go back to israel in eygpt, when God passed over all of the first born of physical israel, they were not all included in spiritual israel were they? those who rebelled in the desert died before crossing into the promised land. all those men over 20 yrs old except for joshua and caleb died in the desert.
No they were not.Included in Israel the nation were those born of the physical line of Abraham,the elect or chosen,yet spiritually not all Israel is Israel neither because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.
Even before God made a covenant with Abraham,he passed on a promise through Noah that the descendants of Japheth would live in the tents of Shem.Eph 2 vs 13-14 chp 3 vs 6
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.For he himself is our peace,who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier,the dividing wall of hostility.
The mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,members together of one body,and shares together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
i dont see any salvation for those who died. their purpose seems more in line with God showing pharoah/eygpt His power, an election to a purpose.
If you think about the last plague in Exoudus 11& 12 The threat of death was upon all the firstborn males both human and animals. Not All of Egypt,nor Israel were the object of this threat.All who were spared were the Israel firstborn males and animals.
So we have a specific judgment against a specific classification,which excluded Israel.The point was that God would show his preference for all of Israel by sparing their firstborn males both human and animals.
So in this specific event they were saved through the blood.Now as for those who were killed or died and not allowed to gain access to the promised land let us not forget that Moses too was denied access for his disobedience as well.(Deut 32 vs 48-52)
This also speaks to the fact that not Israel would be saved,only a remnant would be.Though the number of Israelites be like the sand by the sea,only the remnant will be saved.
in romans 11 paul writes
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich Froot of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
some of the natural branches were broken off, they were part of the holy root, but were broken off for unbelief. i see these as people of israel who never believed, but they were part of the elect nation of israel.
then paul turns to the gentiles and warns them that they too can be broken off because God has already shown that He will break off branches via israel. i see this as God now using the gentile nation to bring back israel. those gentiles who are broken off are part of God's chosen people, the gentiles who dont have faith.
so i dont see either group as elected to salvation because in each group some lost that salvation. i see two groups elected by God to present God to the world. first israel was chosen to show God to the gentiles, then the gentiles were chosen to show God to israel.
if you see individual election to salvation who are those in both groups who are broken off?
You are correct in stating that groups are not saved to election as far as salvation goes only individuals within the defined groups are saved.
Many are called few are chosen.There are many who audibly hear the word and even respond favorably to it with promise of genuine faith,yet not all remain faithful to the end.
Jesus explained why this is,it is all dependent upon the condition of the ground or the heart that receives the word.Who is responsible for cultivating the heart or ground?I say God is as I sure can't change my spots,only he can do this for me.
Paul admonished the Gentiles to one not boast against the branches,as this was wrong.He also warned them to live with fear as they too could be cast off.
He applied this to himself as well.He said he beat his body into subjection lest he himself would be a castaway or disqualified for the prize.He also said that we are to continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Here's the rub Mark.Do you suppose that Paul was talking about one losing his salvation,including himself in any of these examples?If not then we would have to conclude that those who were cut off were those who were never true Israel,either Jew or Gentile.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 7:33:32 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Here's the rub Mark.Do you suppose that Paul was talking about one losing his salvation,including himself in any of these examples?If not then we would have to conclude that those who were cut off were those who were never true Israel,either Jew or Gentile.
agreed, yet those who were cut off were part of the holy root. paul says since the root is holy(set apart), the branches are holy(set apart). he goes further to say they partake of the rich fruit of the olive tree. so within the holy root there are those who are saved and those who are not saved, yet they are all holy(set apart) prior to being broken off.
this is why i see election of nations and election to a purpose. a nation can be chosen by God to serve His purpose, yet everyone within that nation is not saved. all who were in eygpt benefitted, partook of the rich fruit when death passed over them, yet they were broken off in the desert for unbelief.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/19/2008 9:40:19 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 653
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Here's the rub Mark.Do you suppose that Paul was talking about one losing his salvation,including himself in any of these examples?If not then we would have to conclude that those who were cut off were those who were never true Israel,either Jew or Gentile.
agreed, yet those who were cut off were part of the holy root. paul says since the root is holy(set apart), the branches are holy(set apart). he goes further to say they partake of the rich fruit of the olive tree. so within the holy root there are those who are saved and those who are not saved, yet they are all holy(set apart) prior to being broken off.
this is why i see election of nations and election to a purpose. a nation can be chosen by God to serve His purpose, yet everyone within that nation is not saved. all who were in eygpt benefitted, partook of the rich f | | |
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