|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/1/2008 9:44:51 PM
|
|
|
sunofone
Posts: 661
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
john 1
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
those who recieved Him He gave the right to become children. the first act seems to be recieving Him.
this passage has great meaning to you and i dont want to in any way belittle it, but may i ask if you see something other than recieving Him as the first action in this passage with being made children as the result? John I'm aware of the order in which each action occurred,I'm hoping that you would be a little prayerful and careful as you weigh what the writer was sharing here.
If you get it,you will know exactly where I am coming from.I already shared this in an earlier post I think.
If you reconsider it and still come up with the same thing.I'll share again what I said earlier.I'd much rather you saw it for yourself though.I guess we'll wait and see.Let me know.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/1/2008 10:12:35 PM
|
|
|
Dagwat
Posts: 53
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
If I sin, it is not God's will.
So does this mean that all the sins that God orchestrated around Jesus' death, and in order for him to die and rise again so that you might find forgiveness for your sins, were not according to God's will?
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross. - Acts 2:23
blah blah blah
"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you.- Exodus 7:3-4a (emphasis mine) "
blah blah blah
"No. I believe that God willed sin to enter the world in order reveal and display a better glory for himself on the other side of it. "
blah blah blah
I don't even WANT to quote the rest of your rubbish. You have managed to take virtually every scripture in the bible and twist it out of context to push a belief that you have, on others and reap confusion among the believers of Christ.
God NEVER orchestrated sin in any way, shape or form and to assume so is a clear misguided attempt to twist scripture. God knew the sins of man, that's WHY He sent Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins. He never forced Pilate to turn Christ over, in fact Pilate even tried to wash the blood of Christ off his hands, because his conscience told him that he DID have a choice and that he knew he made the wrong choice. Judas hanged himself because he KNEW he made the wrong choice and had willingly sold Christ out to be crucified. The roman soldier that repented at Golgotha. Oh come on..........there are millions of examples in scripture that show man has a clear choice in the matter and were not MADE to sin, by God.
God's "set purpose" was for the sins of man to be forgiven through Christ blood, it was clearly the CHOICE of those "wicked men" in the same scripture that were defiant of God and lusted for the blood of Christ to be shed out of hatred for God's ways.
As for Pharoah's heart, he hardened it himself, thus God chose to further harden Pharoahs heart, out of Pharoah's insistent disobedience to God. He done so to teach Pharoah and all those who would follow that the CHOICES Pharoah made were the WRONG CHOICES.
And THIS quote of yours is downright blasphemy. "No. I believe that God willed sin to enter the world in order reveal and display a better glory for himself on the other side of it. "
It was because of the sins of man that God himself at the time of the flood said that it repented Him that He made man. God's word has so many times shown that God HATES sin, Created Hell for the devil and his angels who orchestrated sin, and will punish sin eternally in those who choose to commit sin and deny the salvation of God through Christ.
This thread makes me sick, and it makes me mad. You have truly been CONQUERED, but not by God as you might assume. I got through about 3 pages of your rants and raves, and scripture mutilation. I've had enough of it and I'm moving on to another thread. I would also encourage everyone else to leave this thread behind, refuse further comment, and give no more fuel for this deception to continue burning. It's time to let the thread DIE the horrible death it deserves. No one will convince this guy of the truth as he clearly doesn't want to see it, or accept it. Why give him further platform to mutilate the word of God?
Not my intent to offend anyone, but I believe in "righteous indignation" and I think sometimes we have to call it like it is and not worry about whom it offends. Truth is truth.
_____________________________
God knows right where each of us are, and just how to find us, even when we don't want to be found. He doesn't have to send someone down to our level to reach us. He knows exactly how to draw us to His message and to where He has placed it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/1/2008 10:48:48 PM
|
|
|
sunofone
Posts: 661
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
|
For all that he said as disrespectful as it was and ironically look at his signature tag.Go figure,God truly has a sense of humor 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 3:09:17 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3526
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 11:53:46 AM
|
|
|
justajerk
Posts: 123
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
|
Re: Dagwat....
wow.
1Peter3 comes to mind;
"14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil."
sunofone, thanks for pointing out the irony of the sig!
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 1:20:41 PM
|
|
|
Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
God NEVER orchestrated sin in any way, shape or form and to assume so is a clear misguided attempt to twist scripture.
You mean to take the Scriptures seriously when it says that God planned the death of his own Son to offer forgiveness of sin? How exactly did he do that without including the sin of humanity in his plans?
Unravel all your accusations backward and you will be forced to admit that in the beginning: God.
Dagwat, you seem to be presenting a very shallow and inaccurate view of my position, that has been explained over many pages here so it deeply betrays your self-justifications when you say:
quote:
Not my intent to offend anyone, but I believe in "righteous indignation" and I think sometimes we have to call it like it is and not worry about whom it offends.
hmm...I always thought correction was supposed to occur as the Scriptures say, with gentleness, respect, patience and in love. Are you familiar with these passages, because I don't see much of any of these things here.
quote:
And THIS quote of yours is downright blasphemy. "No. I believe that God willed sin to enter the world in order reveal and display a better glory for himself on the other side of it. "
God does not sin. God wills sin. Do you understand the difference between these statements?
It is clearly revealed in Scripture that God wills sin (permitted it and included it in plans he crafted before the foundation of the world), that he hates sin, and yet that he does not sin.
quote:
This thread makes me sick, and it makes me mad. You have truly been CONQUERED, but not by God as you might assume. I got through about 3 pages of your rants and raves, and scripture mutilation. I've had enough of it and I'm moving on to another thread.
What on earth are you talking about? To my knowledge, I've never seen a post of yours on this thread before.
If you truly believe I'm in such perilous error, and if you truly believe your signature, why don't you engage my posts at face value and show me my error as a brother in Jesus Christ is obligated by Scripture to do.
Instead, you've just condemned me and effectively said: "You're going to hell, you make me sick, good bye." Dear sir, that's not the Gospel in the least.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 7/2/2008 2:05:27 PM >
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 2:26:49 PM
|
|
|
txtruthseeker
Posts: 2
Joined: 7/2/2008
Status: offline
|
I have done some studying of numerous hours to ascertain of free will and have come to realize that we, indeed, do not have free will. I believe we all like to think that our will is free but, alas, that is not the case. Has anyone ever made a decision or choice that wasn't based without a previous belief, experience or general preference. You do have a will and can make choices but it's not free from infuluence or cause. Scripture says that we will serve God or mammon. Since we are born into a spiritually weak state, we naturally sin. We do not come to God or seek Him out. It is God that chooses us and prepares our hearts. We may not take that road to conversion at the first calling from God but eventually we will. People do not just one day say to themselves "I have decided to serve God" unless the Lord ordains it.
The OT says:
Prov.19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, But the council of the Lord, it will stand.
Prov 20:24 Man's steps are ordained the the Lord.
Ecc 3:1 There is an appointed time for everthing. And there is a time for every event under heaven.
Ecc3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Isa 10:13 (King of Babylon) For he has said, "B y the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this. For I have understanding. (That king thought he was directing and choosing of his own free will and God did punish him for his arrogance)
Jeremiah 10:24 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
Romans 8:28 And we now that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Scripture says that Pharaoh of Egypt was called to defy God by not allowing the Israelites to leave. God wanted the Israelites to see His awesome power.
We all make choices everyday but that doesn't prove we have a free will( devoid of all influences and causes).
There are many scriptures that prove that God is conducting this orchestra of life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 6:00:42 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
John I'm aware of the order in which each action occurred,I'm hoping that you would be a little prayerful and careful as you weigh what the writer was sharing here.
If you get it,you will know exactly where I am coming from.I already shared this in an earlier post I think.
If you reconsider it and still come up with the same thing.I'll share again what I said earlier.I'd much rather you saw it for yourself though.I guess we'll wait and see.Let me know.
john 1
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
i see three things here, first Jesus came to the jews and they did not recieve Him, so He went to others and some of them who were not of israel recieved Him and became the children of God. They were born of God, not their own effort.
what your pointing to i think is last part of the passage. if i am wrong pls corret me.
if that is what your pointing to, i would understand that both pieces of the passage must be held together, not in isolation, they were born of the will of God and they had to recieve Him.
as i write this i know you were driving towards the remenant, i dont see a remenant within this, i see a bold statement by john a jew showing that Jesus came to the chosen first and then turned to the gentiles, an astonishing thing for a jew to say in john's day.
if i am still not seeing your point pls elaborate
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 6:06:16 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: txtruthseeker
People do not just one day say to themselves "I have decided to serve God" unless the Lord ordains it.
may i ask about the reverse of this, does God ordain sin?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 6:09:11 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Unravel all your accusations backward and you will be forced to admit that in the beginning: God.
could you comment on what james says in relation to this view
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/2/2008 7:08:36 PM
|
|
|
sunofone
Posts: 661
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
John I'm aware of the order in which each action occurred,I'm hoping that you would be a little prayerful and careful as you weigh what the writer was sharing here.
If you get it,you will know exactly where I am coming from.I already shared this in an earlier post I think.
If you reconsider it and still come up with the same thing.I'll share again what I said earlier.I'd much rather you saw it for yourself though.I guess we'll wait and see.Let me know.
john 1
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
i see three things here, first Jesus came to the jews and they did not recieve Him, so He went to others and some of them who were not of israel recieved Him and became the children of God. They were born of God, not their own effort.
what your pointing to i think is last part of the passage. if i am wrong pls corret me.
if that is what your pointing to, i would understand that both pieces of the passage must be held together, not in isolation, they were born of the will of God and they had to recieve Him.
as i write this i know you were driving towards the remenant, i dont see a remenant within this, i see a bold statement by john a jew showing that Jesus came to the chosen first and then turned to the gentiles, an astonishing thing for a jew to say in john's day.
if i am still not seeing your point pls elaborate
I believe in you John.I trust that you are seeing what you can see,as am I.I went back and found my post which address these scriptures we're discussing.It is admittedly long,so just take your time and digest it at your leisure.As I said it would be better if you saw it yourself Any way here it goes:
This is a long post,but if we're serious about searching out the truth in Gods word then it is worth the effort it takes to read it.Otherwise why not just say that God will save those who will be saved and call it a day?
John Chp 1 vs10-1210 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: The following commentary is from various authors concerning the verses in John chp 1.Two arguments are key to me here,and I'm offering these arguments for your consideration.
1.)Note the word world and it's usage has to carefully weighed,and balanced;That is the same word is used to describe the universe,a particular locale,ie Jesus physical presence and a specific people,ie.. the Jewish audience,although not inclusive of the entire Jewish nation.
2.)Note the order of Sonship in vs 12,as many as received him,ie.. believed in him,to them gave he the power to include the ability to become sons of God.
Now I'll pause the argument to show commentary concerning the verses in question:
v. 10. He was in the world, as the essential Word, before his incarnation, upholding all things; but this speaks of his being in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us; see ch. 16:28. I am come into the world. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world; that light in this dark world; that holy thing in this sinful polluted world.
"The world," in the first two clauses, plainly means the created world, into which He came, says John 1:9; "in it He was," says this verse. By His Incarnation, He became an inhabitant of it, and bound up with it. Yet it "was made by Him" (John 1:3-5). Here, then, it is merely alluded to, in contrast partly with His being in it, but still more with the reception He met with from it. "The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
And the world knew him not;
that is, the inhabitants of the world knew him not as their Creator: nor did they acknowledge the mercies they received from him; nor did they worship, serve, and obey him, or love and fear him; nor did they, the greater part of them, know him as the Messiah, Mediator, Saviour, and Redeemer. But as many--individuals, of the "disobedient and gainsaying people."
I think it should be clear here that the word world is not necessarily inclusive of all mankind,it can indeed be limited to a specific group of people,or at the very least does not by reason of it's implication include all,as not all Israel ie.. the world recognized him not.It was simply the greater part of Israel,i.e.. the world who did not.
Now for the second part of the argument,see commentary on vs 12:
The Father predestinated men to the adoption of children, secures this blessing for them in the covenant of his grace, and puts them among the children, and assigns them a goodly heritage: the Spirit, and who is therefore called the spirit of adoption, discovers and applies this blessing to them, and witnesses to their spirits that they are the children of God: and Christ, the word, or Son of God, not only espoused their persons, and in time assumed their nature, and by the redemption of them opened a way for their reception of the adoption of children; but actually bestows upon them the "power", as it is here called, of becoming the sons of God:
by which is meant, not a power of free will to make themselves the sons of God, if they will make use of it; but it signifies the honour and dignity conferred on such persons: so Nonnus calls it, "the heavenly honour"; as indeed, what can be a greater? It is more honourable than to be a son or daughter of the greatest potentate on earth: and it is expressive of its being a privilege; for so it is an undeserved and distinguishing one, and is attended with many other privileges; for such are of God's household and family, and are provided for by him; have liberty of access unto him; are Christ's free men, and are heirs to an incorruptible inheritance.
This is a privilege that excels all others, even justification and remission of sins; and is an everlasting one: and it also intends the open right which believers have unto this privilege, and their claim of it: hence it follows,
even to them that believe in his name;
that is, in himself, in Christ, the word: the phrase is explanative of the former part of the verse, and is a descriptive and manifestative character of the sons of God; for though the elect of God, by virtue of electing grace, and the covenant of grace, are the children of God before faith; and were so considered in the gift of them to Christ, and when he came into the world to gather them together, and save them; and so, antecedent to the Spirit of God, being sent down into their hearts, to make this known to them; yet no man can know his adoption, nor enjoy the comfort of it, or claim his interest in it, until he believes.
gave he power--The word signifies both authority and ability, and both are certainly meant here.
to become--Mark these words: Jesus is the Son of God; He is never said to have become such.
the sons--or more simply, "sons of God," in name and in nature.
believe on his name--a phrase never used in Scripture of any mere creature, to express the credit given to human testimony, even of prophets or apostles, inasmuch it carries with it the idea of trust proper only towards GOD. In this sense of supreme faith, as due to Him who "gives those that believe in Himself power to become sons of God," it is manifestly used here. The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
Next we will see how faith has to precede belief,so that it can not be said that belief is credited to human initiative:
He shows that the word preached is the ordinary means of working faith (v. 17): So then, ara — however; though many that hear do not believe, yet those that believe have first heard. Faith cometh by hearing. It is the summary of what he had said before, v. 14. The beginning, progress, and strength of faith, are by hearing. The word of God is therefore called the word of faith: it begets and nourishes faith. God gives faith, but it is by the word as the instrument. Hearing (that hearing which works faith) is by the word of God. It is not hearing the enticing words of man’s wisdom, but hearing the word of God, that will befriend faith, and hearing it as the word of God.
So where does faith come from? How does one get the faith that is necessary for belief?
17.So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God--"This is another confirmation of the truth that faith supposes the hearing of the Word, and this a commission to preach it."
So faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the word of God;But is this the singular means of faith.That is,does God use the spoken word,as preached by Preachers as the only agent of saving faith? Let us consider commentary of 1st Peter 3 vs1 ans 1st Corinthians 7 vs 16 as an alternative of God providing saving faith even if the preached word has failed to do so:
They also may without the word be won. That even those who have steeled themselves against the gospel and who refuse to listen to it may be quietly won by the sweet, Christian lives of their wives. 16. How knowest thou, O wife, etc. Let the Christian be gentle, forbearing, unselfish, though true to Christ, and perhaps the result will be that they will be God's means to save their partner. This has occurred in thousands of instances.
So here we have an example of saving faith coming not from the preached word of God,but rather the silent yet effective voiced of the lived word.The word put into practice which also produces saving faith.
There is one more example of saving faith being produced without the preached word here:
18. But I say, Have they not heard?--"Did they not hear?" Can Israel, through any region of his dispersion, plead ignorance of these glad tidings?
Yes, verily, their sound went--"their voice went out"
into all the earth, and their words unto the end of the world--These beautiful words are from Psalms 19:4. Whether the apostle quoted them as in their primary intention applicable to his subject (as OLSHAUSEN, ALFORD, &c.), or only "used scriptural language to express his own ideas, as is done involuntarily almost by every preacher in every sermon" [HODGE], expositors are not agreed.
Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So, then, faith cometh by hearing. Hence the need of preaching. If God by a miracle wrought faith in the heart, he could dispense with the preacher. But the divine arrangement is that it should result from hearing the word of God preached. For an example of the gospel plan, see Acts 18:8. 18. Have they not heard? Who are alluded to? Both Jews and Gentiles. The objector might say, Well, if faith comes by hearing, so few have heard that we are not responsible for our unbelief. Nay, says the apostle, the opportunity to hear has been very widely extended. In the language of the Psalmist (19:4), Their sound (that of the preachers of the gospel) is gone out into all the earth. When the vast multitude converted on Pentecost were scattered to their homes, they carried the gospel into all parts of the civilized world. Paul was now writing to the church in Rome, where no apostle had ever been.
From the things that are seen every day by all the world the psalmist, in these verses, leads us to the consideration of the invisible things of God, whose being appears incontestably evident and whose glory shines transcendently bright in the visible heavens, the structure and beauty of them, and the order and influence of the heavenly bodies.
This instance of the divine power serves not only to show the folly of atheists, who see there is a heaven and yet say, "There is no God,’’ who see the effect and yet say, "There is no cause,’’ but to show the folly of idolaters also, and the vanity of their imagination, who, though the heavens declare the glory of God, yet gave that glory to the lights of heaven which those very lights directed them to give to God only, the Father of lights. Now observe here, 1. What that is which the creatures notify to us. They are in many ways useful and serviceable to us, but in nothing so much as in this, that they declare the glory of God, by showing his handy-works,
v. 1. They plainly speak themselves to be God’s handy-works; for they could not exist from eternity; all succession and motion must have had a beginning; they could not make themselves, that is a contradiction; they could not be produced by a casual hit of atoms, that is an absurdity, fit rather to be bantered than reasoned with: therefore they must have a Creator, who can be no other than an eternal mind, infinitely wise, powerful, and good. Thus it appears they are God’s works, the works of his fingers (Ps. 8:3), and therefore they declare his glory
The constant and regular succession of day and night (v. 2): Day unto day, and night unto night, speak the glory of that God
His universal influence on this earth: There is nothing hidden from the heart thereof, no, not metals in the bowels of the earth, which the sun has an influence upon. III. To whom this declaration is made of the glory of God. It is made to all parts of the world (v. 3, 4): There is no speech nor language (no nation, for the nations were divided after their tongues, Gen. 10:31, 32) where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone through all the earth (the equinoctial line, suppose) and with it their words to the end of the world, proclaiming the eternal power of God of nature,
v. 4. The apostle uses this as a reason why the Jews should not be angry with him and others for preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had already made himself known to the Gentile world by the works of creation, and left not himself without witness among them (Rom. 10:18)
Here we have an example of Gods creation preaching the word in absence and in conjunction with the called Preacher,so that it can be said that the word of God has been preached throughout all the earth,leaving no excuse for any not to have faith in God,even in absence of the preached word.
So I said all of this to offer a viewpoint that Salvation is of Gods doing and his initiative.He alone is the author and finisher of our faith.Faith simply put is a gift from God,a gift extended in a general sense.So that no man can say that he has not had the invitation.
But to those who do respond to the invitation can accept no credit for having done so.In the end we are left with the fact that God chooses those that are his,not the other way around.
We have not chosen him,but he has chosen us.(John 15vs16,19,Matthew 22 vs14,1st peter 2 vs 9)
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/10/2008 1:20:38 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/3/2008 3:43:00 AM
|
|
|
justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
God NEVER orchestrated sin in any way, shape or form and to assume so is a clear misguided attempt to twist scripture. God knew the sins of man, that's WHY He sent Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins. He never forced Pilate to turn Christ over, in fact Pilate even tried to wash the blood of Christ off his hands, because his conscience told him that he DID have a choice and that he knew he made the wrong choice. Judas hanged himself because he KNEW he made the wrong choice and had willingly sold Christ out to be crucified. The roman soldier that repented at Golgotha. Oh come on..........there are millions of examples in scripture that show man has a clear choice in the matter and were not MADE to sin, by God.
Acts 2: 22-24
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Dagwat
I'm not sure there was any twisting going on with conquered's exegesis. Please enlighten me as to another understanding of v. 23. The writer of acts was very clear to speak of foreknowledge as a "definite plan." Jesus was the "lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world" There is no twisting but rather denial on your part. Your vitriole is rather evident albeit misplaced. You should be upset with the author of Acts for writing in such a clear way, which is affirming that which you apparently abhor.
Noone is saying that God in any way made man to sin, he did not and could not as that would be against his character. But surely you must realize that God created the world knowing full well that sin would occur. Just as some day the glorified believer will not have the opportunity nor the appetite to sin, you must reckon with the fact that God could have created man and his angels in a different manner which would have rendered sin untenable. We have proposed that God while being perfectly holy and utterly unable to sin, did allow for sin to exist thus ordaining that it would be so. You are unable to deal with this mystery, and chalk it up to "twisting the scriptures."
If you would be reread v. 23 it addresses that which you have wrongly asserted. There is no doubt that Judas was fully culpable, for he was a devil from the beginning. But scripture does not take God out of the role as the ultimate cause of the most horrid, and unfair but most necessary event in the history of the universe. Once again the cross wasn't plan B, it was not only necessary for the salvation of us sinners but also to the praise of His glorius grace as Ephesians 1 proclaims. It is this tension that scripture asserts and even proclaims. We shouldn't be surprised when God's revelation conflicts with our human wisdom, infact we should expect it and even praise Him for it.
One more thing, God can't make someone sin when he/she already has a nature that can do nothing but sin. It takes a work of God to render the heart of stone a heart of flesh and begin the process of santification that scripture so gloriously affirms.
I have a question for you. What does God's providence mean to you? Might it necessarily conflict with the libertarian freedom that you are so quick to espouse. Just when does God get to be God in your world?
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/3/2008 3:56:27 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
John Chp 1 vs10-1210 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: The following commentary is from various authors concerning the verses in John chp 1.Two arguments are key to me here,and I'm offering these arguments for your consideration.
1.)Note the word world and it's usage has to carefully weighed,and balanced;That is the same word is used to describe the universe,a particular locale,ie Jesus physical presence and a specific people,ie.. the Jewish audience,although not inclusive of the entire Jewish nation.
2.)Note the order of Sonship in vs 12,as many as received him,ie.. believed in him,to them gave he the power to include the ability to become sons of God.
Now I'll pause the argument to show commentary concerning the verses in question:
v. 10. He was in the world, as the essential Word, before his incarnation, upholding all things; but this speaks of his being in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us; see ch. 16:28. I am come into the world. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world; that light in this dark world; that holy thing in this sinful polluted world.
"The world," in the first two clauses, plainly means the created world, into which He came, says John 1:9; "in it He was," says this verse. By His Incarnation, He became an inhabitant of it, and bound up with it. Yet it "was made by Him" (John 1:3-5). Here, then, it is merely alluded to, in contrast partly with His being in it, but still more with the reception He met with from it. "The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
And the world knew him not;
that is, the inhabitants of the world knew him not as their Creator: nor did they acknowledge the mercies they received from him; nor did they worship, serve, and obey him, or love and fear him; nor did they, the greater part of them, know him as the Messiah, Mediator, Saviour, and Redeemer. But as many--individuals, of the "disobedient and gainsaying people."
I think it should be clear here that the word world is not necessarily inclusive of all mankind,it can indeed be limited to a specific group of people,or at the very least does not by reason of it's implication include all,as not all Israel ie.. the world recognized him not.It was simply the greater part of Israel,i.e.. the world who did not.
agree with everything written above
quote:
Now for the second part of the argument,see commentary on vs 12:
The Father predestinated men to the adoption of children, secures this blessing for them in the covenant of his grace, and puts them among the children,
verse 12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name
here is my problem with what ensues. the commentary on verse 12 says that God predestinates men to adoption yet there is nothing in verse 12 that i can see that in anyway says that or suggests that. this appears to be a presuppistion of the author, i certainly admit i can be wrong here but can you pls show me where in v12 anything like this is suggested. what ensues is based on that presuppistion.
without affirming or denying that God predestines men to adoption, when a passage doesnt speak to this issue if we are going to be honest about what the passage says, how can we insert it? the passage speaks to salvation, those that recieve Him are given the power to become children, but it does not speak to the process and the author seems to be commenting on a process that isnt spoken of there.
the passage states that they become children only after they have recieved Him, not prior to recieveing Him. what this author seems to say that those who recieved Him were already children, if they were already children what need would there be to become children agian?
quote:
and assigns them a goodly heritage: the Spirit, and who is therefore called the spirit of adoption, discovers and applies this blessing to them, and witnesses to their spirits that they are the children of God: and Christ, the word, or Son of God, not only espoused their persons, and in time assumed their nature, and by the redemption of them opened a way for their reception of the adoption of children; but actually bestows upon them the "power", as it is here called, of becoming the sons of God:
quote:
gave he power--The word signifies both authority and ability, and both are certainly meant here.
to become--Mark these words: Jesus is the Son of God; He is never said to have become such.
the sons--or more simply, "sons of God," in name and in nature.
believe on his name--a phrase never used in Scripture of any mere creature, to express the credit given to human testimony, even of prophets or apostles, inasmuch it carries with it the idea of trust proper only towards GOD. In this sense of supreme faith, as due to Him who "gives those that believe in Himself power to become sons of God," it is manifestly used here. The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
Next we will see how faith has to precede belief,so that it can not be said that belief is credited to human initiative:
am i right in understanding the author here to be saying that faith preceds belief, and those with faith are already saved?
if so
john writes about his gospel
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
believe seems to precede life in what john writes.
i would also like to cite another example
cornelius is spoken about in acts 10 and 11
when first introduced we read
1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually
at first blush he would seemed to be saved. i am not including the whole passage but peter comes and preaches to this man and when recounting the story peter saysin chap 11
13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, `Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
clearly if sequence means anything in scripture, this man feared God prior to salvation. in acts 10 he is said to fear God, and in acts 11 peter recounts how the angel said that he would not be saved until he heard peter's words, after that he was granted the Holy Spirit.
the author of the commentaries you posted cited many passages that support their view. if i grant you that they say what you understand them to say, can we talk about the passages that seem to say something different, as in the story of cornelius? if election to salvation is true, it would have to be true in all biblical examples not some. i think we would agree there. you will shed more light on your viewpoint for me in the passages that i see that contradict your view.
as i have stated before, i understand God to be soveriegn in His creation, and man to be free. i understand scripture to teach both.
to be honest i thought you were going to comment more on verse 13
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
as some commentators understand this verse to be speaking of the elect prior to salvation. but this again runs into the issue of them being born God's children yet needing to recieve Him in order to beome God's children. i actually struggled with this a great deal
some times i get passionate as i write and sometimes when in these debates it is hard to know what the other writer is thinking so i just want to say that my response above means no disrespect for your position, or you.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/3/2008 7:19:11 PM
|
|
|
sunofone
Posts: 661
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
gave he power--The word signifies both authority and ability, and both are certainly meant here.
to become--Mark these words: Jesus is the Son of God; He is never said to have become such.
the sons--or more simply, "sons of God," in name and in nature.
believe on his name--a phrase never used in Scripture of any mere creature, to express the credit given to human testimony, even of prophets or apostles, inasmuch it carries with it the idea of trust proper only towards GOD. In this sense of supreme faith, as due to Him who "gives those that believe in Himself power to become sons of God," it is manifestly used here. The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
Next we will see how faith has to precede belief,so that it can not be said that belief is credited to human initiative:
am i right in understanding the author here to be saying that faith preceds belief, and those with faith are already saved?
Do we agree that faith precedes belief?
if so
john writes about his gospel
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
believe seems to precede life in what john writes.
Again can we agree that faith precedes belief?Can we further agree that belief in and of itself saves no one.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Belief in and of itself is nothing,we are talking about saving faith here.Faith that leads to life with evidence following.Remember true faith produces the power to become the sons of God.
i would also like to cite another example
cornelius is spoken about in acts 10 and 11
when first introduced we read
1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually
at first blush he would seemed to be saved. i am not including the whole passage but peter comes and preaches to this man and when recounting the story peter saysin chap 11
13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, `Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
clearly if sequence means anything in scripture, this man feared God prior to salvation. in acts 10 he is said to fear God, and in acts 11 peter recounts how the angel said that he would not be saved until he heard peter's words, after that he was granted the Holy Spirit.
I'm glad you brought up Corneilus,I hear every proponent of freewill point to him as evidence of it.What did Corneilus believe?It is clear that he needed too like the Eunuch have someone bring him to salvation,yet he believed something to bring him to this point.
It is clear that Corneilus knew something of the God of Israel,and responded positively to what he knew.This however in and of itself did not put him in the kingdom.You must as Jesus said enter at the gate.Who are the gatekeepers to the kingdom?We are,who leads men to the gates,God does.Jesus said no man comes to me except the Father draws him.
Who led Corneilus to the gate?Would Corneilus have been saved if God did not lead him to the gatekeeper?No he would not.
So I said all of this to offer a viewpoint that Salvation is of Gods doing and his initiative.He alone is the author and finisher of our faith.Faith simply put is a gift from God,a gift extended in a general sense.So that no man can say that he has not had the invitation.
But to those who do respond to the invitation can accept no credit for having done so.In the end we are left with the fact that God chooses those that are his,not the other way around.
We have not chosen him,but he has chosen us.(John 15vs16,19,Matthew 22 vs14,1st peter 2 vs 9)
the author of the commentaries you posted cited many passages that support their view. if i grant you that they say what you understand them to say, can we talk about the passages that seem to say something different, as in the story of cornelius? if election to salvation is true, it would have to be true in all biblical examples not some. i think we would agree there. you will shed more light on your viewpoint for me in the passages that i see that contradict your view.
as i have stated before, i understand God to be soveriegn in His creation, and man to be free. i understand scripture to teach both.
to be honest i thought you were going to comment more on verse 13
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
as some commentators understand this verse to be speaking of the elect prior to salvation. but this again runs into the issue of them being born God's children yet needing to recieve Him in order to beome God's children. i actually struggled with this a great deal
Here it is in plain language.Those who are God children are already his children,they either don't already know it,and have not as yet responded to it.Remember Jesus gathers his sheep by calling them,and his sheep hear him and respond to him,they follow him.
Vs 13 makes vs 12 clear,being born of God is not of human will,but of God.Just as God chose Jacob before Jacob did anything right or wrong,he also chooses his children,so that election would not stand of works.Although verse 12 seems to place belief in front of sonship,we know that faith must at the very least accompany belief,and faith can only come from God.God must initiate faith in our hearts if we are ever to believe.
So it can rightfully be understood that God chooses those who believe and in believing he gives them the power I.E. the ability the right to become the sons of him.
some times i get passionate as i write and sometimes when in these debates it is hard to know what the other writer is thinking so i just want to say that my response above means no disrespect for your position, or you. I take no offense at all,in fact if I thought that you were being disrespectful of me or my position,I would have vacated this thread a long time ago.I'm only continuing with you because I believe that you are honestly seeking to know.So I'm hoping to be a tool in God's hand showing you what is there to see,and I'll keep going as long as I believe God wants me to,or you get it,or refuse to get it,whichever comes first
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Gods will or Free will - 7/4/2008 10:12:40 AM
|
|
|
john_mark
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
