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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 12:58:42 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
We could go on and on with all the verses shown above, and we would discover the same truth as found in John 3:36 -- those who believe are saved, and those who do not believe the Gospel but prefer sin and idolatry bring down upon themselves the wrath of God.
But the whole world is already condemned until they come to Christ.
John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 1:46:04 AM
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Conquered
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Since you repeated your first assertion in your last response, I'll just address the last...
quote:
This automatically ensures that only those who believe the Gospel and repent of their sins will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is right at this point that God's will and man's will work together. God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the sinner. But He does not compel. In response, the sinner must believe and repent, or be eternally damned (Mk. 16:15,16). Unless those conditions are met, there can be no salvation.
This kind of reasoning, this theology once sounded attractive to me and I once believed it, until I realized I was just making myself a god - sub-consciously thinking that the cross needed my free choice in order to be made powerful enough to save me. More importantly, this thinking isn't biblical.
Then Job replied to the LORD :
"I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes." - Job 42:1-6 (emphasis mine)
You have a narrow view of force, Ezra. You seem to think it only exists in the negative sense, never the positive. But here Job was overwhelmed at the beauty and wisdom of God and the sight and sound of God in a whirlwind. He saw his Creator, heard him speak and responded in the only way he could, with awe. God said: "I will quesiton you and you shall answer me." There was no choice, beause what could Job do but be overwhelmed and compliant. You or I would do the same.
In Paul's conversion I see nothing of "God's will or man's will working together." What I see is a merciful, loving Divine ambush where the Risen Christ descends on Paul and graciously reveals himself and Paul repents. There was no, "Go away now, Jesus and I'll consider it" from Paul. There was light and a command, an edict that Paul could do nothing but follow. Jesus knew what Paul would do because he had already chosen it for him, and how blessed are God's chosen!
And Paul's response was just like Job's, but instead of an oral confession we read that Paul ate or drank nothing for three days as he no doubt pondered what he saw in his blindness. So where was Paul's free choice? Where was John the Baptist's as he leaped in his mother's womb? How about Jeremiah:
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
"Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child."
But the LORD said to me, "Do not say, 'I am only a child.' You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD. -Jeremiah 1:5-8 (emphasis mine)
I don't see any choice there either. How about Jonah? Well, he tried to exercise his will and had it broken in the belly of a fish. How about Moses? Well, he tried to throw up objection after objecton after God told him to go to Egypt and God broke him by turning a staff into a snake and his hand to leprosy and then back again whole. How about David? His will crashed upon hearing a prophet expose his sin of murder and adultery. How about Nebuchadnezzar? His will was broken after eating grass like cattle for seven years.
There are two wills at play, but one far exceeds and overwhelms the other - whenever he wills to do so. This was best seen at the cross, when the wills of sinful men were used by a greater Divine will to achieve a plan he put in motion before the creation of the world.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/8/2008 2:17:45 AM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 7:04:42 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
God abhors those who reject Him -- "children in whom is no faith".
You mean the world? As in you've just described the spiritual state of nearly every human on the face of the earth. Anyway, a little tongue in cheek to prove an earlier point that "God so loved the world...." is an indefensible position if you make it to be the whole world without exception.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 7:19:04 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Because God loves all of humanity, He offers Christ as a gift to all sinners (Jn. 3:16). However, when a sinner rejects Christ and chooses idolatry and wickedness, he brings upon himself the righteous anger of God. God abhors those who reject Him -- "children in whom is no faith".
They were condemned already because their sins had separated them from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
God's "hatred" and man's hatred are two different things: one is hatred of the sin and wickedness found in the sinner, therefore hatred of the sinner who loves his sin. The other is sinful hatred.
If we say that man is not free to turn away from his sins, then commanding all men to repent becomes meaningless. But if all men are free to choose Christ or their own sins, then repentance is a decision to turn from sins and idols to the living God. This is exactly which Scripture reveals. God compels no man to believe the Gospel, but those who reject the Gospel bring judgment on themselves.
God, being omnipotent, can arrange the same influences in all our lives, but He allows some to grow up in less than the best conditions to be open to Christ. Does man just suddenly become spiritual and able to discern what is good on his own or does God cause the seed that has been planted and watered to actually grow? How does man already have it in him to choose good over evil?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 8:16:49 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
quote:
Do these verses say that God hates the world, or do they say the exact opposite? Do these verses say that God would have the whole world in Hell, or do they say that God would have the whole world saved?
It is a terrible thing to make God a liar.
Ezra, before launching your scorched earth rebuke here, maybe you should have asked me what I meant by "world" as in....
"Do not love the world or anything in the world if anyone loves the world the love of the Father is not in him." - 1 John 2:15
"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." - John 17:9
Do you really think God loves the world as world is defined in light of these verses? There is a distinction made in the Scriptures with the word "world" based on how it is used. But just in case....
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."- James 4:4
So do you think God loves the world that James has defined in James 4?
Anyway, I have no doubt that God weeps over this world as Christ wept of Jerusalem and I'm aware that God wishes that all would come to repentance but the word "world" in John 3:16, does not mean the whole world without exception. If you think it does, then you embrace universalism which is roundly denied by Scripture.
I only have limited time to address your post, I'll address the rest of your response later this evening.
I disagree. I believe 'world' in John 3:16 is referring to the entire world, not just a few. God said He desires that ALL men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
When 'world' is used in the other verses you mentioned it is referring to the 'world system' of thinking and behaving, not the earth. We are definately not to love the world system and we are not to be part of the world's system and rules.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 8:22:51 PM
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SD456
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quote:
In Paul's conversion I see nothing of "God's will or man's will working together." What I see is a merciful, loving Divine ambush where the Risen Christ descends on Paul and graciously reveals himself and Paul repents. There was no, "Go away now, Jesus and I'll consider it" from Paul.
I think that is not a good example when speaking about God opening the eyes of someone. Most people don't have the risen Christ appearing to them and speaking to them when they are saved; and most people do not go physically blind - something that would definately make them prone to believe.
Paul, unless he was completely insane, would never have rejected Christ at this point - as I don't believe you or I would have either.
Christ chose to reveal Himself in such a noticable way that removed all doubt and ability to argue it away because Paul would probably have NOT chosen Christ (and did not choose Christ) by the normal means of the Holy Spirit gently convicting one's heart. Paul needed to be boldfaced confronted because he was so thoroughly blinded by religion that any other quieter means would not have caused Paul to choose to follow.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 8:28:55 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.
God's sovereignty and man's free will are both true. So you pitch both stakes and hang on. You'll wear yourself out trying to 'figure it out." 
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 10:51:06 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
I disagree. I believe 'world' in John 3:16 is referring to the entire world, not just a few. God said He desires that ALL men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Again, since not are all saved you are saying that God ultimately doesn't get what he desires.
But to the text...
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. - Romans 1:8
So the faith of the Romans was heard by every one in the entire world without exception?
All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. - Colossians 1:6
So the gospel is bearing fruit and growing in China, Australia, North and South America when Paul stated this - all because the gospel is bearing fruit and growing all over the world without exception?
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 10:52:51 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
None of the above Scriptures disprove the fact that God loves the whole world of humanity without exception: "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (Jn. 3:17).
Before we go any further, we should stop and meditate on this verse, so that we fully understand the love of God for humanity. This is plain, unvarnished Bible truth without the spin doctors putting their spin on it. Right... Let's take look and rather than meditating on the one verse let's look at the verse in context with the adjoining verses. And then let's take a look at the original greek word for world, fair enough?
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
V.16 makes the statement regarding "whoever". V.17 say's that He did not come to condemn, why? Because the world was condemned already (v.18). So who is it that believes in the name of Jesus? The people hate the light, love the darkness, do evil, do not come to the Light (v.19-20). V.21 then states that whoever comes to the light is the one whose "works have been carried out in God". Great! All we have to do is find out who these people are who can come to the light and do righteous works (there is no unrighteousness in God). But now we have a problem... "None is righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10) this puts a damper on the idea that "anyone who wants to" may believe... doesn't it?
Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Ok, now an exposition of the word "kosmos" (world).
Many have said to us, "Surely, ‘world’ means world, that is, you, me, and everybody." In reply we would say: We know from experience how difficult it is to set aside the "traditions of men" and come to a passage which we have heard explained in a certain way scores of times, and study it carefully for ourselves without bias Nevertheless, this is essential if we would learn the mind of God.
Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word "world" in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos," and its English equivalent "world," is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:
"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."
"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.
"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.
"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.
"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!
"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.
Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Romans 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!
- The Sovereignty of God, (A.W. Pink)
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/8/2008 11:13:37 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 11:06:22 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
I think that is not a good example when speaking about God opening the eyes of someone. Most people don't have the risen Christ appearing to them and speaking to them when they are saved; and most people do not go physically blind - something that would definately make them prone to believe.
SD, the example went to Paul's will being violated, not that anyone today experiences blinding light, a voice from heaven and are made physically blind when they are converted. But I will say that the Ethopian, Cornellius, the 3000 who heard Peter's sermon at Pentecost, Lydia, and the Philippian Jailer all responded and believed. They did not think about it or ponder it. They heard the Gospel and immediately believed. However, we do read of one occasion where a man who heard the Gospel refused it to exercise his will, so that he might consider it further:
"I am not insane, most excellent Festus," Paul replied. "What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. 27King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do." Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" -Acts 26:25-28
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 11:08:48 PM
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Conquered
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JaJ,
Thanks for the Pink quote.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/8/2008 11:13:01 PM
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justajerk
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You are very welcome Sir Broken!
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 11:19:06 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
You are very welcome Sir Broken!
Excuse me one and all, it is now "Conquered" as the BrokenMessenger login needed a change after nearly three years.
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 10:20:04 PM
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SD456
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quote:
Again, since not are all saved you are saying that God ultimately doesn't get what he desires.
Yep, that's about it. To do so He would need to make all of humanity puppets, which thankfully He doesn't do.
quote:
They did not think about it or ponder it. They heard the Gospel and immediately believed. However, we do read of one occasion where a man who heard the Gospel refused it to exercise his will, so that he might consider it furth
*L* And what about all the millions of christians over the past 2000 years who needed time, even years, to ponder it? What about seeds that are planted only to be harvested years later in someone's heart? Such as the man who wrote "The Case for Christ?" He pondered it and wrestled with it and searched for the truth before he ever believed.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 10:25:23 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
But the whole world is already condemned until they come to Christ.
quote:
They were condemned already because their sins had separated them from God.
Isn't it "loverly" how you can get fixated on condemnation when you have a warped theology? Beware the theologians who preach not the whole counsel of God. They are jsut as bad as the false prophets who speak peace to the wicked.
We'll, let's introduce a breath of fresh Divine air:
"For God SENT NOT His Son into the world to condemn the world, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED" (Jn. 3:17).
I guess you were not even aware that this verse is to be found in the Bible. Or has your condemnatory bible expunged it, so that sinners should not discover that Christ came into this world to save them? That surely would be a shame, since God really plans to send them to Hell.
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world TO SAVE SINNERS" (1 Tim. 1:15).
Christ already knew that Adam's race is separated from God and desperately needs the Savior. Therefore He came into the world to save sinners, not condemn them. From there on, those who are condemned are the one who condemn themselves by rejecting the Gospel, since the Gospel is for "whosoever" believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.
Does God will all men to be saved? Absolutely. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world? Absolutely. Does Christ draw all men to Himself? Absolutely.
Yet, all do not believe and all do not repent because they are free to make a choice -- choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
Yet there are Christian naysayers who would seek to deny these truths, or pervert them for their own ends under the pretence that Christ died for a handful of men, and the rest are supposedly "condemned". This is "another" gospel.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/9/2008 10:32:45 PM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 10:25:51 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I disagree. I believe 'world' in John 3:16 is referring to the entire world, not just a few. God said He desires that ALL men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Again, since not are all saved you are saying that God ultimately doesn't get what he desires.
But to the text...
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. - Romans 1:8
So the faith of the Romans was heard by every one in the entire world without exception?
All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. - Colossians 1:6
So the gospel is bearing fruit and growing in China, Australia, North and South America when Paul stated this - all because the gospel is bearing fruit and growing all over the world without exception?
I think that understanding that the word 'world' is used in different ways and different contexts does not negate each other at all. In John 3:16 the verse is speaking about the entire earth. In Romans, Paul is speaking both about the world at that moment in time where news is able to travel, while at the same time speaking prophetically - is not the gospel now spread throughout all of the world and we can ALL now read about their faith? Yes, it is. There faith is and was being reported around the world.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 10:28:09 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Again, since not are all saved you are saying that God ultimately doesn't get what he desires.
Yep, that's about it. To do so He would need to make all of humanity puppets, which thankfully He doesn't do.
Does Ezekiel 36:26 say that God makes us puppets? I don't see that. To me, it says that God gives man a new heart and a new spirit.
Ezekiel 36
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/9/2008 11:02:24 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
But the whole world is already condemned until they come to Christ.
quote:
They were condemned already because their sins had separated them from God.
Isn't it "loverly" how you can get fixated on condemnation when you have a warped theology?
I don't recall calling your theology warped. Are you feeling cantankerous, Ezra?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Beware the theologians who preach not the whole counsel of God.
Amen!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
We'll, let's introduce a breath of fresh Divine air:
"For God SENT NOT His Son into the world to condemn the world, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED" (Jn. 3:17).
Are you a universalist? If "world" means each and every person on earth, then surely each and every person will be saved. If world does not mean each and every person, it means something else as Conquered previously explained.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
I guess you were not even aware that this verse is to be found in the Bible. Or has your condemnatory bible expunged it, so that sinners should not discover that Christ came into this world to save them? That surely would be a shame, since God really plans to send them to Hell.
Do you believe that God sends some people to hell? Is God able to save all men?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world TO SAVE SINNERS" (1 Tim. 1:15).
Does He save all sinners withou | | |
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