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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 12:14:22 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 185
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
ANd whoever is offered the gift still have the option to accept it or not.
Not this gift. Because this gift comes with a change of heart, a new heart implanted that is not of this world. It is simply a supernatural event, thus the term born again or regenerated by the Spirit of God himself.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 12:18:44 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
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Let's take John 6:32-65 (in the KJV) to discover some Gospel truths which actually overthrow the perversion of the Gospel by some.
A. CHRIST IS THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN
[32] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
B. CHRIST IS THE BREAD OF GOD WHO GIVES LIFE TO THE WORLD
[33] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
D. CHRIST IS THE BREAD OF LIFE WHO SATISFIES ETERNALLY
[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
E. THOSE WHO ARE GIVEN TO CHRIST BY THE FATHER SHALL COME TO HIM, AND THOSE WHO COME TO HIM WILL NOT BE CAST OUT
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
F. THE FATHER'S WILL IS THAT CHRIST LOSE NONE OF THOSE GIVEN TO HIM
[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
G. THE FATHER'S WILL IS ALSO THAT EVERY ONE WHO BELIEVES ON CHRIST MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
H. THE FATHER MUST DRAW THE ONES WHO WILL BELIEVE ON CHRIST
[43] Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I. CHRIST SACRIFICED HIS BODY AND BLOOD FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
J. CHRIST IS THE BREAD THAT GIVES ETERNAL LIFE
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
K. THOSE WHO REFUSE TO BELIEVE CANNOT COME TO HIM AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE ARE GIVEN TO CHRIST BY THE FATHER
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
It is quite clear from this passage that both God's will and man's will are involved in salvation.
MAN'S WILL
The refusal of the Jews to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ even after He had given them this revelation of Himself was an act of the will -- wilful disobedience to the truth.
GOD'S WILL
God's will is that everyone who believes on the Son shall receive eternal life, and those who are given to Christ shall come to Him, and shall not be cast out, and shall not be lost.
THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST IS FOR THE WORLD
Notice carefully, ye naysayers, that (a) Christ is the Bread who gives life to the world (v. 33) and (b) Christ offered His Body and Blood for the life of the world (v.51). What could be clearer and what could be the final deathblow to a perverted gospel?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 2:14:14 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
Let's take John 6:32-65 (in the KJV) to discover some Gospel truths which actually overthrow the perversion of the Gospel by some.
Good Grief… First off I have to ask why you find the need to throw these personal attacks into your comments, are you bitter or just mean spirited?
Next, I would like to ask why you have completely ignored Arthur W. Pinks Exegesis on “Kosmos”? (post #109). I’ll post it again here so that you might actually read and address it.
Many have said to us, "Surely, ‘world’ means world, that is, you, me, and everybody." In reply we would say: We know from experience how difficult it is to set aside the "traditions of men" and come to a passage which we have heard explained in a certain way scores of times, and study it carefully for ourselves without bias Nevertheless, this is essential if we would learn the mind of God.
Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word "world" in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos," and its English equivalent "world," is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:
"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."
"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.
"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.
"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.
"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!
"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.
Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Romans 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!
- The Sovereignty of God, (A.W. Pink)
And finally I’d like to point out a few items that you seem to have overlooked (I would hope not intentionally omitted) in your teaching on John 6.
25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?" 26Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." 30So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
Who is Jesus addressing here? A crowd of people who had followed him after he fed them the loaves of bread.
They sought to find a way to earn their own righteousness and eternal life in v.28. But what was Jesus answer? You can’t earn your own righteousness, “this is the work of God… that you believe…”.
So in v.30 Not understanding what Jesus had just said, they want Jesus to show them a sign so they can see it and believe what it is he is saying. Of course in v.31 they give an example of their heritage and how they (there fathers) had recieved manna from heaven, as if that was a definitive proof (which obviously did not work very well for their fathers now did it?)
[32] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Jesus is talking about himself, we both know this. But again the crowd didn’t get it.
(Notice who “giveth” the bread.)
[33] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Talking about himself here, but do all the people understand?
World - (Kosmos): See Pinks comments and check the verifying verses.
[34]Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Blind to what he is saying, they are wanting Jesus to produce some of this bread he just mentioned.
[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
This must have shocked more than one, causing a bit of consternation.
“he that cometh, and he that believeth” never hungers and never thirsts. Pre-requisites to receiving this bread of life who satisfies eternally. Jesus will have to explain how we meet these pre-requisites, right?
[36] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
You left this one out. They saw Jesus perform miracles, and still they didn’t believe. Here is where Jesus will plead with them to see him and believe in him right? Nope.
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
You said it; “Those who are given”. Not all, but those specifically who are given… shall come.
(“Not be cast out”, a great case for the Perseverance of the saints. But let’s stick to the issue at hand.)
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
God’s will is being done here. (Another verse you left out).
[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
“Christ shall lose none” of whom? Those whom (whomsoever) the Father in His will, has given.
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
“every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him”. So who may have “everlasting life” here? Those whom the Father gives to Christ; those “who seeth” and “who believeth”. How do we know the Father has given them to Christ? They see and they believe.
[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
See v.35 (Left this one out).
[42] And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
We know this guy! I’d say they didn’t have a clue as to who he truly is. Why not?
(Left this one out)
[43] Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
What do you think was the murmuring here? “What is Jesus talking about?!” They were wondering how a person can get this eternal life, and be raised up on the last day. Obviously they could “see” him, but this had to mean something more, especially with his claim of coming from the Father.
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did you completely miss this verse? Does it need an explanation? Does the Father draw “all” men (i.e. the whole world without exception)? No, because if He did they (all men without exception) would see and believe, resulting in everlasting life and being raised up on the last day.
[45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
[47] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[48] I am that bread of life.
[49] Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
You missed these, would you like to go through them or are they understandable?
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
“I am the living bread… if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever”. Who is it that was just promised this very thing: to live forever & have everlasting life?
Those whom the Father draws, who seeth and believeth = eateth and drinketh.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Left out (see comment on v.45-50)
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
“he that eateth of this bread shall live forever”… Who etas this bread and lives forever? Those whom the Father draws.
[59] These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
[60] Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Kinda like those who have a hard time even now dealing with God’s sovereignty in election.
[61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Good question… does it offend you Ezra? I think we already know the answer.
[62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” God grants belief, our own effort (man’s so-called free will) will get us nowhere. (Left these out)
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
“there are some… Jesus knew from the beginning… no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him...” Given from who? The Father. What is given? Seeth-ing and believeth-ing; They don’t refuse, Jesus is stating a fact “there are some… that believe not”. IOW, sight for blind eyes and faith in the Son of God.
quote:
It is quite clear from this passage that both God's will and man's will are involved in salvation.
It is quite clear from your eisegesis of this passage, that you will read into an obvious scripture what it is you want to see.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/14/2008 5:01:04 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 7:45:20 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2281
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
Salvation.
Our view:
John1:45Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see."
God's view:
John1:43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, "Follow me."
WOW! We're such crazy people!
Pedro was driving down the street in a sweat because he had a very important meeting and could not find a parking place. Looking up toward heaven, he said "Lord, please take pity on me. If you find me a parking space I will go to Mass every Sunday for the rest of my life and give up tequila!"
Miraculously, a parking space appeared....
Pedro looked up again & said, "Never mind Lord, I found one!"
That's not the joke I was searching for, but it works.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 8:33:22 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/13/2008
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Justajerk, and justasheep,
I don't think I understand. Are you both trying to say that we have no choice in the matter. That there are some people in this world whom God is not drawing to Jesus, so they have no chance at salvation. and those of us whom he does draw have no choice in accepting His gift. I tend to agree with Ezra, that salvation is a gift we can accept or decline, it is Gods will that we all be saved, but not all will be saved do to some declining that gift, their unbelief in the Lamb of God. We have a choice as I see it. Believe, repent and be saved, or don't believe, do not repent, and be sentenced to hell for our sins. Jesus did come for the world and in His death took on the sins of all man kind. But it is up to us to accept the salvation offered by Jesus through the cross.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 8:47:16 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2281
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Justajerk, and justasheep,
I don't think I understand. Are you both trying to say that we have no choice in the matter. That there are some people in this world whom God is not drawing to Jesus, so they have no chance at salvation. and those of us whom he does draw have no choice in accepting His gift. I tend to agree with Ezra, that salvation is a gift we can accept or decline, it is Gods will that we all be saved, but not all will be saved do to some declining that gift, their unbelief in the Lamb of God. We have a choice as I see it. Believe, repent and be saved, or don't believe, do not repent, and be sentenced to hell for our sins. Jesus did come for the world and in His death took on the sins of all man kind. But it is up to us to accept the salvation offered by Jesus through the cross.
How does a depraved individual repent and call on God?
Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 15
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
John 3
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 8:55:39 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/13/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
How does a depraved individual repent and call on God?
If by depraved you mean sinner, than we are all depraved, for we are all born into sin. So then by your question, who would be saved.
Doesn't born again, mean that we have been born once, into sin I might add, and then were born again in the spirit due to our acceptance of Jesus gift of salvation?
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 9:15:06 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/13/2008
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8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double - minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up." James 4:8-10
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 10:14:08 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 662
Joined: 12/11/2007
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How did we become totally depraved? Was it because of Adam and Eve's sin. I thought they exercised their free will and chose to disobey God. It opened their eyes to sin, but did their sinning remove their free will?
I don't know. I think if you aren't indoctrinated in Calvinism, you really won't believe in God that way by reading the bible.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 11:13:25 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 383
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
I don't know. I think if you aren't indoctrinated in Calvinism, you really won't believe in God that way by reading the bible.
That's just not true. The Lord found me in 1981, and from that year untill this i was totally sold out to arminianism, but i always felt that there was so much in scripture that free will could not answer. I had always rejected idea's like election, total depravity , and God's sovereignty as calvinist's taught them. Yet the more i read and re-read the word over the years i could no longer read the epistles with the cognitive dissonance
i had to employ just to get past scriptures dealing with these ideas. The man who discipled me as a new believer was an old southern baptist dispensationalist of the 1st order who thought calvinist's were satanic, and if he knew that i had become reform im sure he would spin in his grave if he knew lol. But he was a good man.
< Message edited by HisFish -- 5/14/2008 11:24:51 PM >
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 11:25:40 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Justajerk, and justasheep,
I don't think I understand. Are you both trying to say that we have no choice in the matter. That there are some people in this world whom God is not drawing to Jesus, so they have no chance at salvation. and those of us whom he does draw have no choice in accepting His gift. I tend to agree with Ezra, that salvation is a gift we can accept or decline, it is Gods will that we all be saved, but not all will be saved do to some declining that gift, their unbelief in the Lamb of God. We have a choice as I see it. Believe, repent and be saved, or don't believe, do not repent, and be sentenced to hell for our sins. Jesus did come for the world and in His death took on the sins of all man kind. But it is up to us to accept the salvation offered by Jesus through the cross.
GraceMD -
Freewill as you're describing is not as it seems. Our choices are always a matter of heart and mind, we choose that which seems best to us. Our strongest desires or inclinations. For the unbeliever, they have no positive inclinations towards God, in fact scripture speaks as if they are at enmity towards Him. While people may be doing or accomplishing "good things" these things are not done by faith and are not occurring as a result of delighting in the Savior. I would say that this is an example of common grace that is evident throughout humanity. We all benefit from this grace which flows from the creator.
Personally I do not like the term "total depravity" but prefer the term "total inability." It describes our condition so much better, for we are unable to come to Christ, to place our trust in the finished work of Christ. Total depravity is easily misunderstood, for we are never as depraved or sinful as we could be. See common grace above. Imagine a world without law, or even the restraining work of the Holy Spirit which will reside until the last day. A world like this would indeed be totally depraved, a world that might resemble hell itself.
So what we have been saying is that for belief to occur, a new birth must occur first, which in turn changes our heart and begins to incline it towards God. At that point we are "free" in a way that we never were before. Free to begin to worship the Creator rather than the created. This new birth is a work of the spirt and God breathed in nature. You may have your philosophical differences, but the plain reading of scriptures concur that "Salvation is of the Lord" (wholly and completely)
At this point we can begin to take passages such as quoted by Eph 4:32 and others as literal or we much change it to fit our philosophical constructs. Yes we will wrestle with the "love of God" or the "justice of God." I often think of Job at this point, he seeminly had every right to question God's mercy and yet God still asked him where he was when God created the heavens and earth. This seems harsh but maybe the beginning of understanding His transcendent nature will grow your faith and joy in Him. Frankly we often approach God as if He owes humanity because he has created it, but I think this is not a God glorifying approach. Grace is so much more gracious when the recepient understands just how much undeserving he/she really is. I think that is why we must keep the Gospel central to our lives, it brings perspective like only the Gospel can.
So you see "free will" is really a misnomer. The unbeliever is no more free than a caged animal. He will constantly do what seems right in his own eyes. He will not see the beauty in Christ and His Cross and will certainly not see his sin for what it is, that is until ....
There's the rub, we just don't know who God has chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph 1) Nor should we, for this is the work of the Spirit ( 8"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit".) So in a nutshell, Salvation is a God thing through and through. Knowing this is precious to the soul, it is both humbling and Christ exhalting.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/14/2008 11:51:18 PM
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apologist1948
Posts: 32
Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Justajerk, and justasheep,
I don't think I understand. Are you both trying to say that we have no choice in the matter. That there are some people in this world whom God is not drawing to Jesus, so they have no chance at salvation. and those of us whom he does draw have no choice in accepting His gift. I tend to agree with Ezra, that salvation is a gift we can accept or decline, it is Gods will that we all be saved, but not all will be saved do to some declining that gift, their unbelief in the Lamb of God. We have a choice as I see it. Believe, repent and be saved, or don't believe, do not repent, and be sentenced to hell for our sins. Jesus did come for the world and in His death took on the sins of all man kind. But it is up to us to accept the salvation offered by Jesus through the cross.
Well, if you accept the Gospel that Ezra is promulgating, that there IS NO SIN that we have to worry about because Jesus took away the sin of the world. If the sin of the world was taken away (this must be a different world than I see every day), if this sin was taken away at Calvary and Galgotha, we are now perfect, not under the curse or the temptation of sin.
quote:
The question was not whether some sinners will be cast into Hell (which is a separate and unrelated issue). The question was did Christ come into the world to save sinners and did He indeed take away the sin of the world? And the Scriptures are crystal clear. He absolutely did.
Don't quote me - I am only relaying what I read from his post (#139) on this thread.
Blessings to all.
< Message edited by apologist1948 -- 5/15/2008 12:07:22 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/15/2008 12:04:37 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
Let's take John 6:32-65 (in the KJV) to discover some Gospel truths which actually overthrow the perversion of the Gospel by some.
Good Grief… First off I have to ask why you find the need to throw these personal attacks into your comments, are you bitter or just mean spirited?
I am neither bitter nor mean-spirited, but I do call a spade a spade. And your theology is a perversion of the Gospel. This is not a "personal attack" (although your ad hominem remarks are) but a denouncing of the doctrines of men, which pervert the Word of God and which you accept blindly. I say the same things about Catholic perversions of the Gospel.
Pink has the same theogical bias as you do, therefore I prefer to simply ignore him. Where it suits, the world is "all humanity", and where it does not suit the world is "all believers". That is sheer nonsense. If Arthur Pink can pervert John 3:16 to make it mean something other than what it says, there is little hope for such doctrine to be consistent with Bible truth.
I notice that you also perverted the words of Scripture that clearly reveal that Christ gave His life for the world, and attempted to make them say that this time around it means "believers". Nice dodge. But such tactics are not helpful in arriving at the truth.
As to the verses I omitted for brevity, they can all be shown to be consistent with what I have indicated in my post regarding John chapter 6. I was certainly not trying to avoid them, and I have certainly not changed the meaning of the verses with the sub-headings I provided.
The fact that Christ Himself says that His body and blood were given for the life of the world (all humanity) is sufficient in itself to establish that truth, and to expose the lie that denies this fact. But since you do not wish to believe Him, you change His words to suit your doctrine.
All lies come from Satan, and it is Satan who causes men to change God's truth into a lie. If he can convince some that John 3:16 is not an offer of salvation to the world, he has struck a mighty blow against the Gospel, and against the infinite value of the finished work of Christ. And we are commanded to expose his lies.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/15/2008 12:44:01 AM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/15/2008 12:15:32 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 32
Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
Let's take John 6:32-65 (in the KJV) to discover some Gospel truths which actually overthrow the perversion of the Gospel by some.
quote:
Good Grief… First off I have to ask why you find the need to throw these personal attacks into your comments, are you bitter or just mean spirited?
Hard to tell, it is obviously the MO of this poster, cf post #117. I took the time to attempt to rectify the situation (post #124), but it is apparent that this cannot engage in Christian dialogue and must revert sarcasm, insults and rudeness to attempt to get his point accross. It's really too bad. The witness he is projecting does nothing for his argument or the sharing of his Christianity. (Matthew 5:39)
Thanks for sharing your research.
< Message edited by apologist1948 -- 5/15/2008 5:06:31 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/15/2008 12:27:45 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, if you accept the Gospel that Ezra is promulgating, that there IS NO SIN that we have to worry about because Jesus took away the sin of the world.
I have stated nowhere that "there IS NO SIN that we have to worry about". What I have paraphrased is a quotation from Scripture, "Behold, the Lamb of God,WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (Jn. 1:29). What does this mean? Exactly what it says.
All our sins were laid on Christ as the Lamb of God, and His sacrifice -- the offering of His body and blood -- for the sins of humanity paid the price for our sins perfectly. They were all atoned for at the Cross. The penalty was fully paid for each and every sin of each and every sinner!
quote:
If the sin of the world was taken away (this must be a different world than I see every day), if this sin was taken away at Calvary and Galgotha, we are now perfect, not under the curse or the temptation of sin.
Obviously, you have not understood what Christ accomplished at the Cross, hence this remark. The truth is that because all our sins were laid of Christ and He became our Sin-Bearer, each one who believes on Him and receives Him as Lord and Savior also receives the gift of eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
His sacrifice is effective for only those who believe and repent. That is what the Gospel teaches. Are sinners free to either believe or disbelieve, obey or disobey the Gospel? Absolutely. Read the book of Acts for confirmation.
Those who believe are indeed no longer under the curse of sin and death. And believers are indeed perfect in the sight of God, since He has imputed the perfect righteousness of Christ to each one of us, as well as washed us in His blood, and clothed us with this righteousness.
However, temptations are allowed to be presented to God's children, and the Tempter is allowed to roam this earth for a season to test the children of God (as Job was tested). But because greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world, Christians can resist temptation by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us (and this is also Scripture).
I trust this clarifies some vital Gospel truths to you. The Gospel I promulgate is the Gospel of God, and the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/15/2008 1:06:31 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 185
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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Ezra,
Wake up, man! You're fighting strawmen that do not exist.
quote:
I notice that you also perverted the words of Scripture that clearly reveal that Christ gave His life for the world, and attempted to make them say that this time around it means "believers". Nice dodge. But such tactics are not helpful in arriving at the truth.
Why would this even matter to you since in your view, Jesus has taken away the sins of the whole world, including this one?
But at any rate, JaJ justed quoted you Scripture and explained it to you in the clear, simple context in which it lays in John 6.
But at any rate, you're now encouraging others to entertain the following heresy that Paul so boldly dealt with....
"If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. - Romans 3:7-8
quote:
The fact that Christ Himself says that His body and blood were given for the life of the world (all humanity) is sufficient in itself to establish that truth, and to expose the lie that denies this fact. But since you do not wish to believe Him, you change His words to suit your doctrine.
No one is denying this and you have revealed just how deep your ignorance is concerning the Doctrines of Grace. Christ was God and on that cross paid more than enough in his blood for an infinite number of men. Calvinists do not deny this and you've just slandered many a faithful. But Christ says that not all will be saved, so the Calvinist simply cannot abide the thought that...
A. Christ's death wasn't enough to save whoever he wished.
B. That your/my choice is necessary in order to make his cross powerful enough to save us.
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