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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 5:55:22 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebringer
If you read the article, what I find to be the important note, is he went seeking the spirit of God not Todd.
I have stated somewhere before, and I don't know if here. I do beleive healings have occured.
When they do, do so of one of 3 options
1. Kundalini
2. Demonic healing
3. God chose to act in that persons life in accordance with what he was asking of God.
I think the man was assaulted in fact because he was a person truely seeking God.
I've said before that anyone who was healed in Lakeland was healed because of their faith and in spite of Todd, not because of him. But, I'm not so sure now because I've still not seen a single documented healing at all - of any kind, demonic or otherwise! Even the "testimonies" he pulls up on stage are very shaky and vague. I'm beginning to think he is so far beyond the pale, God is withholding his hand from this completely - but people still fall for it!!
And you raise something very interesting - what was Bentley responding to when he knee'd that man with cancer? Was he "battling the cancer" or was something in him reacting to the faith and the Holy Spirit in that man? It's entirely possible given all that we've seen as "fruits" from TB.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 5:57:00 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
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Hellochurch, you need to stop reacting and take the time to find out more about this guy and see for yourself how it stacks up against the Word.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 7:59:53 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
"Touch not my annointed and do my prophets no harm" should be taken very seriously unless you have a sure Word from the LORD, should you really be taking judging this man into your own hands and mouth. What if you are wrong, which I presume you have been in your life, probably often, and you are using your mouth this negatively on someone whose source is God.?? better be careful with that,
Why do you say that Todd's source is God? And you are severely using that passage out of context, horrifically.
During His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ exhorted His followers not to judge self-righteously or hypocritically. Is this necessarily what Christians do when they question the teachings of God's "anointed" preachers and evangelists?
Many teachers who claim such anointing would say so, and many more of their followers commonly reply to all manner of criticism: "Touch not God's anointed."
Some of these teachers add that such actions carry literally grave consequences. Prominent "faith" teacher Kenneth Copeland affirmed in his taped message, "Why All Are Not Healed": "There are people attempting to sit in judgment right today over the ministry that I'm responsible for, and the ministry that Kenneth E. Hagin is responsible for....Several people that I know had criticized and called that faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of 'em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there's more than one of them got cancer."
In addition to certain "Word of Faith" teachers, such sentiments may be found among various groups involved with shepherding and other forms of authoritarian rule (from diverse "five-fold" ministries to a host of large and small "fringe churches").
The leaders of these groups are commonly regarded as having a unique gift and calling that entitles them to unconditional authority. To dispute any of their words or deeds is not distinguished from questioning God Himself.
Advocates of such authority assume that Scripture supports their view. Their key biblical proof text is Psalm 105:15: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm". But a close examination of this passage reveals that it has nothing to do with challenging the teachings of church leaders.
It first needs to be noted that the Old Testament phrase "the Lord's anointed" is typically used to refer to the kings of Israel (1 Samuel 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2 Samuel 1:14, 16; 19:21; Psalm 20:6; Lamentations 4:20), at times specifically to the royal line descended from David (Psalm 2:2; 18:50; 89:38, 51), and not to prophets and teachers.
While the text does also mention prophets, in the context of Psalm 105 the reference is undoubtedly to the patriarchs in general (vv. 8-15; 1 Chronicles 16:15-22), and to Abraham (whom God called a prophet) in particular (Genesis 20:7). It is therefore debatable whether this passage can be applied to select leaders within the body of Christ.
Even if the text can be applied to certain church leaders today, in the context of this passage the words "touch" and "do harm" have to do with inflicting physical harm upon someone. Psalm 105:15 is therefore wholly irrelevant to the issue of questioning the teachings of any of God's "anointed."
Moreover, even if we accepted this misinterpretation of Psalm 105:15, how are we to know who not to "touch"; that is, who God's anointed and prophets are? Because they and their followers say they are?
On such a basis we would have to accept the claims of Sun Myung Moon, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, Joseph Smith, Charles T. Ruzzell, Jose Luis de Miranda and virtually all cult leaders to be prophets.
Because they reputedly perform miracles? The Antichrist and False Prophet themselves will possess that credential (Rev. 13:13-15; 2 Thessolonians 2:9)!
No, God's representatives are known above all by their purity of character and doctrine (Titus 1:7-9; 2:7-8; 2 Corinthians 4:2; 1 Timothy 6:3-4). If a would-be spokesperson for God cannot pass the biblical tests of character and doctrine, we have no basis for accepting his or her claim, and no reason to fear that in criticizing his or her teaching we might also be rejecting God.
Finally, if any individual Christian is to be considered anointed, then so every Christian must be as well. For this is the only sense in which the term is used (apart from Christ) in the New Testament: "You (referring to all believers) have an anointing from the Holy One" (1 John 2:20). Thus, no believer can justifiably claim any special status as God's "untouchable anointed" over other believers.
Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment especially influential leaders. Biblically, authority and accountability go hand in hand (Luke 12:48). The greater the responsibility one holds, the greater the accountability one has before God and His people.
Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses. And should the criticisms be unfounded they should respond in the manner prescribed by Scripture: to correct misguided doctrinal opposition with gentle instruction (2 Timothy 2:25).
There is of course another side to this issue: criticism often can be sinful, leading to rebellion and unnecessary division. Christians should respect the leaders that God has given them (Hebrews 13:17). Theirs is the task of assisting the church in its spiritual growth and doctrinal understanding (Ephesians 4:11-16).
At the same time believers should be aware that false teachers will arise among the Christian fold (Acts 20:28; 2 Peter 2:1). This makes it imperative for us to test all things by Scripture, as the Bereans were commended for doing when they examined the words of the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11).
The Bible is useful not only for preaching, teaching, and encouragement, but for correcting and rebuking (2 Timothy 4:2). In fact, Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God and warning others of false teachings and teachers (Acts 20:26-28; Ezekiel 33:7-9; 34:1-10).
We would do well to heed Scripture's repeated warnings to be on guard for false teachings (Romans 16:17-18; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to believers (2 Timothy 4:6). With so much scriptural support, such actions can hardly be considered unbiblical.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 8:11:45 AM
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peacebringer
Posts: 225
Joined: 5/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebringer
If you read the article, what I find to be the important note, is he went seeking the spirit of God not Todd.
I have stated somewhere before, and I don't know if here. I do beleive healings have occured.
When they do, do so of one of 3 options
1. Kundalini
2. Demonic healing
3. God chose to act in that persons life in accordance with what he was asking of God.
I think the man was assaulted in fact because he was a person truely seeking God.
I've said before that anyone who was healed in Lakeland was healed because of their faith and in spite of Todd, not because of him. But, I'm not so sure now because I've still not seen a single documented healing at all - of any kind, demonic or otherwise! Even the "testimonies" he pulls up on stage are very shaky and vague. I'm beginning to think he is so far beyond the pale, God is withholding his hand from this completely - but people still fall for it!!
And you raise something very interesting - what was Bentley responding to when he knee'd that man with cancer? Was he "battling the cancer" or was something in him reacting to the faith and the Holy Spirit in that man? It's entirely possible given all that we've seen as "fruits" from TB.
well I would say some "healing" occured but not what Mr. Bentley suggests in that article. There is a guy at charisma that claims 2 people were healed at his church, one of sacardosis. But these accounts are few and far between.
_____________________________
http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 9:04:26 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
p.s. again to lapidoth, although I do not know enough of Bentley's work to know whether to support him or not,
First of all, welcome to the forum!
Second, it may help you to read this thread, view the video evidence and ask the Holy Spirit to give you discernment as you research this "movement"
It is not advisable to provide commentary, make assumptions, and criticize others until you fully understand the subject. There is nothing worse than on one hand saying that you do not know enough about a subject and then respond to others. The "do not touch God's anointed" bit doesn't work here!
quote:
I do know that what I have read here is crushing criticism and I am wondering why.
Again, read through this thread and you see that there are MOUNDS of evidence supporting our criticism of TB. Praise God that there are numerous Bereans here that actually do research before making comments and forming conclusions.
quote:
Did you or others receive a direct Word from the Lord which you are to give to Bentley to correct him and if so you should be giving it to him, and if not you are standing on shaky ground being so demolishing toward him,
Yes, we did receive a direct word from the Lord. It is called Scripture. Many here are doing what the Bible COMMANDS believers to do and that is test ALL teaching and doctrine against Scripture and when it does not line up, it is to be exposed. Todd Bentley's teaching and doctrine FAILS that test!
quote:
because you can easily be just plain wrong, and especially since a healer you advocate uses far worse methods of healing than you have mentioned about Bentley, ie a healer you revere tells people to look at the live snake on the pole that he holds up at the front of the auditorium and tells them to do this or they are going to die. I heard you were a fan of this healer, I thnk his name is MOIshe, o r Moses. Your fanship seems to lack the same kind of scathing criticism you are applying to Bentley, but i dont see why, Bentley has never done anything as outlandish as that, and you are a fan of that snakepole guy, I am sure of it.
There is NO comparing between Moses and Todd Bentley. Moses did what God commanded him to do. Todd Bentley is a tool of the enemy, leading people AWAY from Christ with his phony healing and signs and wonders.
Really hellochurch, with all due respect, PLEASE do a little more homework before continuing with your comments. It will help your credibility
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 9:09:47 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
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As far as the "Do not touch God's anointed"...the situation here is that many of us do not see evidence that Bentley is anointed by God. That is why the slogan does not work here.
That verse has been used by villains in pulpits to cover their evil deeds for centuries.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 10:02:16 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
As far as the "Do not touch God's anointed"...the situation here is that many of us do not see evidence that Bentley is anointed by God. That is why the slogan does not work here.
That verse has been used by villains in pulpits to cover their evil deeds for centuries.
Amen!
Unfortunatley many of the WOF and Latter Rain lapdogs throw that around all the time. As if their "heros" are so blessed that they are above reproach
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 11:28:46 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 553
Status: offline
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Apparently life preservers are to be avoided at all costs and a drowning in the sea of bentley is preferable.
People are destroyed for lack of (Biblical) knowledge. It would seem you can self-inflict terrible wounds when your sword is not sharpened and you do not know which end is which. The helmet is also being worn backwards and the shield is completely thrown aside in the name of misplaced faith. The girdle of truth was never put on - or perhaps it became too cumbersome - couldn't run to and fro quite as fast....
The shoes are quite worn through and not much good now - that comes from walking in places with many stones and hard ground.
The breastplate? Many holes from accepting lies from Satan.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 1:09:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Hello helloschurch.
thank you for singling me out.
You keep saying you "know nothing" of Todd Bentley,
yet you are the expert to him being a so called minister.
You also "know nothing" about the true ministers on this board,
yet you are the expert in accusing them.
You have also shown you "know nothing" of holy writ.
I almost assume you may be a muslim or some "other" leaning
except they do know who Moses is.
Maybe you would like to introduce yourself and give a little background
about yourself so an "honest dialogue" can proceed.
As you can see, many came to my defense, but it wasn't to my defense,
but the defense of the TRUTH. Those who "hunger and thirst" after truth
and righteousness will be filled according to that hunger.
Those who hunger after other things will fill their lives with that that they lust after.
If, you need instruction I am at your service. I answer honest e-mails that enquire
about biblical passages.
The "evidence" is in these 124 pages. It's your responsibility to check them out.
You either accept the facts, or, you reject them.
There is this truth:
"If we reject the truth; we have no alternative than to believe a lie."
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 7/18/2008 1:24:41 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 1:53:48 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Psalms 105:9-15
9. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10. And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for
an everlasting covenant.
11. Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12. When they were but a few men in number; yeah, very few, and strangers in it.
13. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
14. He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
15. Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
As earthless pointed out, to use "touch not mine anointed" as we do in society today
is completely out of context. The nation of Israel is the only thing referred to as "My Anointed."
The history of Israel shows us that the kings were not kind to Israel as they passed through their
lands, and God brought judgment upon them. God warned the nations, "Do not touch Israel."
And, "do MY prophets no harm."
Even if one considered Bentley one of God's prophets, it still wouldn't apply in CONTEXT.
Since Bentley is a false-teacher/prophet, it definitely does not apply.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 1:54:59 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Apparently life preservers are to be avoided at all costs and a drowning in the sea of bentley is preferable.
This is so sad, but so true.
I pray God's mercy for all those following after lying signs and wonders.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 2:22:26 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Just kidding with the bring back Todd comment..
This morning I decided to take a peek at Sunday nights Lakeland service at GODTV, and who do I see filling in, but James “SHAKA” Goll. (see: Sometimes You Just Have to Laugh…”Shaka!”) If sticking this guy in as a temporary replacement is supposed to bring legitimacy to this event, these people are deluded. In some ways the guy is worse then Todd. After reading a few background items on this guy though, I can see why he was chosen to step in temporarily, if for one night or until Todd’s return. It should come as no great surprise that he is deeply involved with Peter Wagner at the Wagner Strategic Impartation and Activation Institute. He is also a member of the Harvest International Ministries Apostolic Team, who’s other members include Stacey Campbell and all the usual suspects.
While listening to this guy I caught what may be the first step in trying to help Todd overcome the bad publicity of his Nightline interview: Goll went into some spiel about receiving a prophecy concerning “Bam Bam” (that’s his name for Todd) 12 years ago…just by chance I saw a portion of it posted at youtube: Bam Bam was prophesied 12 years ago - Florida Healing Outpouring
It appears these old false prophets and self-appointed apostles are not giving up, but seem to think their appearance at Lakeland, once again, will bring legitimacy to this event.
Shaka stands in for Bam-Bam
His name will be called Todd
BAM
global eruption / todd
Call it gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble. . . . . .(a bowel movement)
Rodney Howard Brown sailing
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 7/17/2008 2:49:58 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:09:46 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
This article was also sent to me by Ed Newby. Its never ceases to amaze me that if many Christians are not experiencing something they figure their church is a dead church. Now that same spirit that bought you Brownsville, Toronto and other false revivals brings you the latest rage packaged up in a grunge look with the Lakeland revival.
The real scary thing is I do believe that a real spirit is imparted here that comes back to your church.
Is it the Holy Spirit?
Absolutely not.
The Holy Spirit will never need to piggy back on someone to come to your church.
The Holy Spirit of God can be anywhere at anytime.
Notice how all these supposed revivals seem to need a human vessel to carry the goofiness back to your church.
This fellow brought up a very good point. Something we need to realize.
no piggy back ride
quote:
Pa$$ the Plate and Let Us Prey
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:26:42 PM
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lbolm
Posts: 53
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline
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Hi,
I am back again!
HA Ha !
Lapidoth, what do you think? TB will or will not be back ?
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:27:21 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Notice how all these supposed revivals seem to need a human vessel to carry the goofiness back to your church.
...Not necessarily. Didn't you see the one where Todd claimed HIS spirit went overseas to minister to someone while he was still back in Canada?
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:31:20 PM
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waffles5
Posts: 5
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
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Has anyone gone to Todd's website? I just was on there and he changed it. He wrote a letter explaining everything that is going on in Florida and defending himself. This guy is good. It really makes me sad because it makes it look so real. Please go and check it out and post your comments.
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:36:14 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lbolm
Hi,
I am back again!
HA Ha !
Lapidoth, what do you think? TB will or will not be back ?
There's a report that he's coming back.
quote:
...Not necessarily. Didn't you see the one where Todd claimed HIS spirit went overseas to minister to someone while he was still back in Canada?
Yeah, I saw that. I've done some studies of astral projection,
and that's what's going on if he isn't just out right lying, which is my suspicion.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:43:42 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I'm sure a lot of you also got this email from godtv.com ....
quote:
After taking a short break to rest after nearly 100 days of back-to-back ministry, Todd Bentley has announced he will be back ministering at the Lakeland Outpouring from Friday this week.
Our coverage of the Lakeland Outpouring has continued every night, LIVE on our webstream (www.god.tv/stream), and we are now going to resume our LIVE on-air coverage of the Lakeland Outpouring from this Friday 18 July.
We will also broadcast a special one-off Healing Revival with Todd Bentley - LIVE from Louisville, Kentucky on 17 July (the day before our Outpouring broadcasts resume). This will also be available online at www.god.tv/stream.
I just sent an email all my family in Louisville that I have emails for warning them.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:45:56 PM
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lbolm
Posts: 53
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lbolm
Hi,
I am back again!
HA Ha !
Lapidoth, what do you think? TB will or will not be back ?
There's a report that he's coming back.
Now what is it that the Scriptures declare about when a demon comes back? something about bringing 7 of his buddies with him! WOW!
If TB is demonic as you say, THEN.........
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:49:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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abc news report
Steers clear of any accountability.
Todd: "I'm acting on the authority of God's Word and my beliefs."
The Healing Touch?
When asked to present evidence of the healings, Bentley promised to give "Nightline" the names and medical records of three followers who would talk openly about his miracles. He never delivered. Instead, his staff gave "Nightline" a binder filled with what he says are inspiring miracles, but with scant hard evidence. It offered incomplete contact information, a few pages of incomplete medical records, and the doctors' names were crossed out.
Not a single claim of Bentley's healing powers could be independently verified.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 7/17/2008 4:10:08 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Florida HealingOutpouring-here we go again - 7/17/2008 3:53:43 PM
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solarflare
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