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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 9:11:27 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
I have to agree with the premise that FurGodWurLivin is trying to make. Which I think alot of people are missing. How many of us would use the same hatred and judgment and name calling if it was our own pastor that had been caught in something non biblical? Would we be so quick to vilify? So Bentley is a false teacher, who did many things that are not scriptural. Saul, who later became Paul, one of the most important authors of the Bible, use to MURDER christians because he was deceived into thinking he was doing God's work. God still used him in a mighty way. Lets not be so sure we know what God is going to do or not do in this situation.
Oooo...fresh meat! Just kidding but that's what you make it sound like.
How long have you had the privlege of reading this thread? No one is missing anything except those who have just got on board. How much of this have you read?
Name calling? Calling someone an adulterer, because they are one, is name calling?
Vilify? Do you actually know anything about Mr Bentley? Do you actually know what the qualifications are for being a representitive of a Holy God?
Frankly, people who commit adultery have vilified themself.......please don't compare Bentley to Saul/Paul...Paul, as Saul, was waging a
'war' in the name of God and thought he was doing God a favor. Mr. Bentley was doing himself a favor and waging immorality.
You think God is going to use Bentley in a mighty way? I have news for you...He already has. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear now knows what a false prophet looks and sounds like. A warning, I would say, in keeping with all the deception we are told to keep an eye out for.
What God is doing in this situation? Perhaps exposing the fake, the false and the slaughtered and sheared sheep so that others will not fall into the pit too. duh.
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 10:14:25 AM
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stateofgrace
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Regarding the example of David...This is an example of a king, who fell astray through the misuse of his power. It is not an example of a religious leader.
David attempted to "get away with" his adultery and with putting Bathsheba's husband in the line of fire. But the Lord sent the prophet Nathan into his life who forced David to confront his sin. The Lord made it clear through Nathan that David's sin was going to have consequences.
1) "the sword will never depart from your house"
2) "Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you"
3) "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you... "
4) David's sin was hidden, but God proclaimed that the consequences would be in "broad daylight" before all Israel
5) David's and Bathsheba's son was going to die.
What was David's response to Nathan's proclamation from God? An immediate acknowledgment of his sin. No excuses. No more attempts at hiding or downplaying or whitewashing what had happened.
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 10:48:02 AM
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Grace71
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
I have to agree with the premise that FurGodWurLivin is trying to make. Which I think alot of people are missing. How many of us would use the same hatred and judgment and name calling if it was our own pastor that had been caught in something non biblical? Would we be so quick to vilify? So Bentley is a false teacher, who did many things that are not scriptural. Saul, who later became Paul, one of the most important authors of the Bible, use to MURDER christians because he was deceived into thinking he was doing God's work. God still used him in a mighty way. Lets not be so sure we know what God is going to do or not do in this situation.
Oooo...fresh meat! Just kidding but that's what you make it sound like.
How long have you had the privlege of reading this thread? No one is missing anything except those who have just got on board. How much of this have you read? I have read the whole thread.
Name calling? Calling someone an adulterer, because they are one, is name calling? Don't remember Jesus calling anyone a name except for those who were self righteous.
Vilify? Do you actually know anything about Mr Bentley? Do you actually know what the qualifications are for being a representitive of a Holy God? Do you? Have you sat down with Todd and spoke to him? Or are you getting all the info from the web, like st everyone else?
Frankly, people who commit adultery have vilified themself.......please don't compare Bentley to Saul/Paul...Paul, as Saul, was waging a
'war' in the name of God and thought he was doing God a favor. Mr. Bentley was doing himself a favor and waging immorality. And he has the opportunity to be forgiven, just like we all were.
You think God is going to use Bentley in a mighty way? I have news for you...He already has. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear now knows what a false prophet looks and sounds like. A warning, I would say, in keeping with all the deception we are told to keep an eye out for. And God can turn his mistakes and life around just like he did for mine and countless others on this board.
What God is doing in this situation? Perhaps exposing the fake, the false and the slaughtered and sheared sheep so that others will not fall into the pit too. duh.
And God can turn his mistakes and life around just like he did for mine and countless others on this board. Why are so many people thinking he is beyond forgiveness and change? Have we forgotten grace and mercy and compassion? Or are we so self righteous we think Todd doesn't deserve it? Well, neither did I or you or any of us for that matter.
_____________________________
http://lyndie-graceforthejourney.blogspot.com
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 11:02:30 AM
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sirwintery
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I don't accept the accusations of unkind judgment, "hatred" etcetera.
That's certainly not my approach.
But how wrong is the "circle the wagons" mentality when pastors do mess up? People being okay with really unrepentant "mistakes" leads to worse ones with more people being hurt down the road.
What's the current count on Bentley resurrections from the dead? Still zero?
So it's not a good, sound Biblical teacher getting divorced, married, restored; it's how long is an appropriate timeout until it's "Sheek-a-boomba" time again. Baptizing in the name of "sheek-a-boomba"? That's what is being "restored"?
Guess Benny Hinn is glad he didn't visit Lakeland after all.
From one show to the next show and someone hollers "God is moving" and in come the believers and the dollars.
Remember Patricia King saying something about believers being too critical of Todd released something against him (that's earlier in this thread)?
No, Todd and his "angel" experiences did quite enough on their own.
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 12:38:06 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
And God can turn his mistakes and life around just like he did for mine and countless others on this board. Why are so many people thinking he is beyond forgiveness and change? Have we forgotten grace and mercy and compassion? Or are we so self righteous we think Todd doesn't deserve it? Well, neither did I or you or any of us for that matter.
See...that is what I mean... you say you read the entire thread...but no one has said he is beyond God's forgivness or other Christians. You are missing the point if that is what you have come up with. Grace mercy and compassion.....right....however, he is unrepentant....actions speak louder than words.
He divorced his wife....for someone he had an 'emotional' affair with and then married the someone. It's God's righteousness that condemns those sins...not mine. And that, is what so many people have lost sight of.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 11/17/2009 12:44:41 PM >
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 12:39:54 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
It is not an example of a religious leader.
My example was for the sin of adultery. Nothing else....no leadership...no kingship...nada...just adultery. Thx
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 1:15:23 PM
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Grace71
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So what then would his repentance look like to you? What would you be happy with?
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http://lyndie-graceforthejourney.blogspot.com
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 3:13:15 PM
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stateofgrace
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Grace, as far as me personally, I have questions as to whether or not the statements released by Todd show evidence of owning up to the sins that caused his downfall, and of true repentance. I can not judge the state of his heart; I can only evaluate what he has said and done.
Given that his actions disqualified him from the position of elder (see 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and Tit. 1:5-9), he should have not been quickly restored to a leadership/significant position, IMO.
If he had been a pastor in a denomination that took those NT qualifications seriously, he would have likely had to undergo a significant leave of absence (not just a few months) and counseling to ensure that he understood his sin and repented of it, and understood what had triggered the sin and how to avoid those temptations in the future. He would likely have been placed under the accountability of other pastors for an extended period of time. While it might appear on the surface that at least some of that has happened in this situation, I think that the devil, so to speak, is in the details.
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 11/17/2009 3:25:05 PM >
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 3:57:12 PM
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Lapidoth
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Luke 3:7-8
7. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized
of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from
the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not
to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say
unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto
Abraham.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 11/17/2009 4:05:06 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:03:55 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
Todd Bentley Cashes In His Dividends
LINK
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:06:06 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
“It was most odd, thought Gladys, that God would regularly come in power enough to knock her off her feet and make her twitch, but not enough to heal even a little of her sickness. Meanwhile, her friend Maria honestly didn’t understand why when she and everyone else she knew had enough faith to be “slain in the Spirit” at a meeting, none of them had enough faith to be healed. Or so the healing revivalist claimed.”
LINK
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:16:38 PM
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Lapidoth
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ACCOUNTABILITY
LINK
also a new board of directors..............................LOL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:39:43 PM
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Grace71
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Stateofgrace- I agree that something may still be amiss. I guess the point I am trying to make is Are we praying for him to have a true heart change, as we all need at some point, or are we praying for his ultimate downfall? Some of the post seem that way. We also need to be praying and hoping for change in those who ultimatley taught him this false stuff, because we all sit under someone's teaching. Yes, I know he misled many. I know he has sinned, but some on this thread seem to be saying/implying he is a lost cause. I am one who is not so quick to say oh well, he's hellbound and leave it at that.
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:41:17 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
That is a hefty statement that bears discussion. Saying that Todd Bentley is "definitely" no Saul of Tarsus is actually a cynical statement of judgment that bears no resemblance to reality of any kind. I'll go so far as to say that Todd's failures actually make him a more likely candidate for a remarkable turnaround if he is sincere before God... ain't grace awesome?
I can't look at a Satanist and proclaim that they will never become a pastor. Why? Because God works in mysterious ways. I'm sure the early church looked as Saul and said that he had no hope of finding salvation because of his persecution against the church... and yet, that is the man who penned 3/4 of the New Testament. Saul was not just persecuting the church... Saul was persecuting Jesus himself. Then we say that Todd Bentley has no hope of anything because he has some wonky doctrine? How cynical have we really become?
Reading between the lines are we..? No where have I stated God could not use him in a mighty way...If he truly repented, was truly restored, and truly followed the Lord he could probably go a long way. Does it seem to you he has truly repented, been truly restored, and truly follows the Lord..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:43:50 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
You know what, you are going to have to prove that statement before it is actually valid. I can start an empiric statement with "Well, obviously..." but until I tell you why it is obvious, it is not obvious. That is one of those phrases we use to make our opinions carry more weight, but when they get pushed they are proven to merely be top-heavy.
Sooo, maybe you can produce the dead that were raised to life...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:47:28 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
How do you know that he is ignoring anything? Is it because your understanding of the specific warnings and truth that you are referencing are so abundantly clear that someone would have to be a fool to not know them? I have a revelation for you... people who are fully convinced in the other direction feel the exact same way.
If he truly 'read' God's Word he would know God's Truth, just as I had stated in my post. It isn't a difficult task to understand the Bible ~ it was written so all could have understanding of who God is, and what He requires us to be.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:52:04 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
So how does that square with Peter's double life depending on whether he was around Jews or around Gentiles? Having the Holy Spirit does not mean that you suddenly stop sinning and become perfect... just ask the disciples.
Peter had issues with the Jewish traditions, of which he was raised in, versus the 'new' traditions he and the other apostles were working, learning, and growing into; I see no connection with his trying to understand a 'new' tradition, and Bentley's unbiblical issues.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:53:39 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1467
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
Stateofgrace- I agree that something may still be amiss. I guess the point I am trying to make is Are we praying for him to have a true heart change, as we all need at some point, or are we praying for his ultimate downfall? Some of the post seem that way. We also need to be praying and hoping for change in those who ultimatley taught him this false stuff, because we all sit under someone's teaching. Yes, I know he misled many. I know he has sinned, but some on this thread seem to be saying/implying he is a lost cause. I am one who is not so quick to say oh well, he's hellbound and leave it at that.
I'm not saying he's "hellbound" - My concern is him being back in "the ministry" which he is now. I don't know if he ever was truly out of "the ministry" since from the point Joyner released a statement that Bentley was under his wing, he was raising support for Bentley.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 4:56:09 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
he would give back all the "millions of dollars he stole from the innocent people he deceived", and then what?
Zacchaeus did...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 5:00:26 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
You have no responsibility of any kind to single out Todd Bentley as the embodiment of evil... because he is your brother in Christ. Love him or hate him, this is your spiritual brother.
And where exactly have I personally stated he was the 'embodiment of evil..?' He is my brother, a lost one whom I am required to pray for. I never said I hated him, don't know why you think we 'hate' the man...We hate his actions, actions that have caused hurt and grief, and caused the Lord's church to look like a circus...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 5:08:14 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Since when are you your pastor's Spiritual Father?
If you knew anything about mentoring you would know that being a spiritual father has nothing to do with physical age. A twenty year old could very well be a mentor (spiritual mentor/father) to a sixty year old! Even a person who has been a 'Christian' for thirty+ years can be mentored by a younger person. It is not an age thing, it is a relationship thing. Most people do think of mentoring as an older to younger happening, and yes, in most cases it is that way; but not necessarily the rule. A very good book on the subject, if you are interested, is 'Authentic Spiritual Mentoring' by Larry Kreider.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 5:12:26 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Who made you the judge, jury, and executioner of all things ministerial? Too often it seems that we forget that the church is not ours, but God's.
I am no judge, jury or executioner ~ that is the Lord's job. Yet it would seem that you are judging most on this thread for bringing to light the falseness of Mr. Bentley...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 8:21:52 PM
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Digrieze
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quote:
Digrieze, you have missed my point. I have disagreements with Todd Bentley. I don't agree with him on a fair bit. I am not interested in defending him and proving him to be an apostle. I am only interested in why it seems impossible to carry any kind of real love for someone that we disagree with. I am not denying that Todd Bentley has issues. What I am trying to get attention to is the sheer ludicrousness (and unbiblicality) of the zeal in "exposing a documented false teacher". Were to go over the local pastors of everyone here with the same standard we are hoisting for Todd Bentley, we would be bound to find something that would disqualify every last one of them from the ministry- whether that be preaching Neo-Platonism, or emotionally neglecting their children
I haven't missed your point at all, rather, I totally understand the point God made in:II Peter 2:1-6, or in Acts 17:12, or in Revelation 2:1-2 and 2:6.
God's Word is clear that there WILL be those who come among us with evil in their hearts (like-ministering by knocking an old mans tooth out maybe?). It is also clear that we ARE to judge them and the standard is to be scripture, not our denominational preferences. Also clear is that we are NOT to tolerate them in our presence, in fact, we are to HATE what they do.
quote:
I'll go so far as to say that Todd's failures actually make him a more likely candidate for a remarkable turnaround if he is sincere before God... ain't grace awesome?
I agree that Bentley is a candidate to show the wonders of God's grace and mercy, and I do pray that will happen regularly (actually, he's on my Thursday AM list). Unfortunately I haven't seen any evidence of that TO THIS POINT. So far it's been "whoops, sorry about that, well I'll just keep going like I did before (just changed the wife)".
quote:
So... if he "truly repented" he would renounce all of his associations with Rick Joyner, Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets and the rest, he would give back all the "millions of dollars he stole from the innocent people he deceived", and then what?
I doubt you'd see Bentley change his acquantences or give back anything. If his heart was so hard he could beat up old people and say God told him to do it his concious is so seared a little thing of the money will doubtfully affect him. Actually, it's his ACTIONS FOLLOWING the discovery of his adultery that have me doubting his "repentence". While Bentley was busy publically repenting he was privately "lawyering up" to keep his control of the name "Fresh Fire Ministries" and prevent the ministry from using "his brand" (the ministry, which DID have other good things going on NOT involving Bentley, is still ministering under another name. I wish them well.) In other words, instead of separating himself from the things that HE said destroyed his marriage until he could straighten his life up, he was busy making sure his business was up and running. To use a real example, Jim Bakker I can see resored to ministry. He's gone through the journey (including stepping away from that ministry). Far different from Bentley.
quote:
If, rather than hunting down the people they disagreed with, the American church was to have spent the last 50 years focusing on orthodox Christology, I can almost guarantee you that guys like Jesus de Miranda who are actually leading church members into apostasy would not have the kind of influence they do. I can also wager a guess that guys like Todd Bentley who have some wonky doctrine would actually be much more firm in orthodox theology, thus eliminating the need for discussions like this. So the question is... where is your focus? The sheep with a wild idea or the Shepherd?
Adam
Actually Adam, I agree, If we took the time to teach the Bible instead of teaching from the latest top 10 best selling book we would have fewer of these problems. However, we would still have those that come in pretending to be christian leaders with some super-insight from God. The Bible warns us of them, and there are (have been, and will be) those who are willing to put on the show and tell the lie to lead the untaught and gullible to follow them instead of Christ. Which brings this full circle, I pray for mercy for them, but see no biblical example of ignoring them just because they are popular. Bentley should have been arrested the first time he "drop-kicked" an old person, not encouraged by people laughing whenever he told this story of abusing the vulnerable.
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/17/2009 11:27:32 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
So what then would his repentance look like to you? What would you be happy with?
Look...there are so many Bentelys out there that many people believe the goings on are the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Adultery included.
Your questions seem to indicate that I am prejudiced against the man personally and want some kind of
satisfaction.
The one thing I would like from the whole motley crew is that they stop saying God told them to do and say what
they do and say...because He did not. But I know that will not happen.......deception and itching ears make a great
team.
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RE: :: Lakeland Revival - Todd Bentley - 11/19/2009 9:24:29 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Regarding the example of David...This is an example of a king, who fell astray through the misuse of his power. It is not an example of a religious leader. Except that David was a religious leader. Hence, he wrote the majority of the book of Psalms. He also made all the preparations for the temple he could not build and placed the ark of the covenant in his backyard under a tent with musicians and singers. So yes, David was a religious leader.quote:
David attempted to "get away with" his adultery and with putting Bathsheba's husband in the line of fire. But the Lord sent the prophet Nathan into his life who forced David to confront his sin. The Lord made it clear through Nathan that David's sin was going to have consequences.
1) "the sword will never depart from your house"
2) "Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you"
3) "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you... "
4) David's sin was hidden, but God proclaimed that the consequences would be in "broad daylight" before all Israel
5) David's and Bathsheba's son was going to die.
What was David's response to Nathan's proclamation from God? An immediate acknowledgment of his sin. No excuses. No more attempts at hiding or downplaying or whitewashing what had happened. (A) Considering that I'm the one who referenced the story, it is a reasonable assumption that I am aware of it's contents.
(B) David was fully aware of what he was doing in covering up his infidelity and did not repent until he knew he was caught. We must also remember, that this story was Nathan and David in the Palace. Nathan did not drag David out into the public square to make this proclamation in the middle of the city. That is my point. Nathan was specifically commanded by God (in person, no less) to go confront David, and did so in his own home. So how is this some kind of support for what this thread is an attempt to be? Todd Bentley is not here, we are in one of the most public venues available, and thus far no one is proving to be a prophet of the level Nathan was. FAIL.
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And God can turn his mistakes and life around just like he did for mine and countless others on this board. Why are so many people thinking he is beyond forgiveness and change? Have we forgotten grace and mercy and compassion? Or are we so self righteous we think Todd doesn't deserve it? Well, neither did I or you or any of us for that matter. +20 points... nuff said.
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But how wrong is the "circle the wagons" mentality when pastors do mess up? People being okay with really unrepentant "mistakes" leads to worse ones with more people being hurt down the road. Who said anything about "unrepentant mistakes"? Considering that all of us have them, to harp on one man for them is highly idiosyncratic. Remember that John Maxwell even said, "Of course I have holes in my doctrine. I don't know where they are, or I would fix them." I have a reality check for you... people are going to get hurt no matter who we lynch in the public forums of Evangelicalism. It is not up to us to see that people do not get hurt... it is up to us to see that they respond rightly when they are hurt. To put it another way, Jesus was not interested in seeing that people didn't get hurt... Jesus was interested in binding the broken hearts. And yet this line of logic is that we need to build so many guards around all of us that we will not get injured. In layman's terms, anything outside the status quo is a risk and risk is bad.
Nobody is talking about circling the wagons (which actually was not a tactic used by the pioneers to defend against Indians anyway), what we are talking about is holding each other accountable with love and dignity as the primary motivating factors. Realistically, if your only interest is preserving correct doctrine, you should be out preaching correct doctrine so that people are not swayed by bad doctrine. That isn't a complicated formula.quote:
What's the current count on Bentley resurrections from the dead? Still zero? And yours is..............?quote:
So it's not a good, sound Biblical teacher getting divorced, married, restored; it's how long is an appropriate timeout until it's "Sheek-a-boomba" time again. Baptizing in the name of "sheek-a-boomba"? That's what is being "restored"? Once again, this is a perfect example of where there is no way to make you happy. If Todd Bentley didn't take a "timeout" he would be decried as a baby-eating charlatan because he "openly sinned and no one called him on it"... if he does, we will be decried as a soul-eating charlatan because he was "hiding away until the furor died down". So the only real option he has to escape an ideological bludgeoning is to just go away... and yet no where did Jesus say that we should desire that our brothers (even the dysfunctional ones) go away and stop bothering us. In fact, Jesus says that if you have an offering and you are not at peace with your brother that you need to go be reconciled to him before giving your offering to God. Food for thought... quote:
From one show to the next show and someone hollers "God is moving" and in come the believers and the dollars. And here I was thinking I was cynical. In one fell swoop you have used Todd Bentley as a foundation to automatically reject anything that smells remotely like revival. Not to be too heavy handed, but do you believe that God actually does anything anymore, or is He on vacation until it is time for the second Advent?quote:
Grace mercy and compassion.....right....however, he is unrepentant....actions speak louder than words. Right...... "So what if he repented... he's unrepentant!" At this point you are really trying to take the seat of God in determining who is and is not repentant... Last time I tried to sit in God's chair, it was too big for me and I got uncomfortable.quote:
He divorced his wife....for someone he had an 'emotional' affair with and then married the someone. Funny, so did Amy Grant and Sandy Patti, if I remember correctly...... quote:
It's God's righteousness that condemns those sins...not mine. And that, is what so many people have lost sight of. True, it is God's righteousness that condemns those sins. It is humanity's self-righteousness that condemns the man... and that is the point that I am trying to make. Yes, divorce is evil and marital unfaithfulness is a grievous sin. But you are naive if you believe that it couldn't happen to any pastor/itinerant minister in the world. quote:
Given that his actions disqualified him from the position of elder (see 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and Tit. 1:5-9), he should have not been quickly restored to a leadership/significant position, IMO.
If he had been a pastor in a denomination that took those NT qualifications seriously, he would have likely had to undergo a significant leave of absence (not just a few months) and counseling to ensure that he understood his sin and repented of it, and understood what had triggered the sin and how to avoid those temptations in the future. He would likely have been placed under the accountability of other pastors for an extended period of time. While it might appear on the surface that at least some of that has happened in this situation, I think that the devil, so to speak, is in the details. So, once again, we are reduced to gut-level reactions, innuendo, and our limited understanding to make an empiric statement of the quality of a man before God? That doesn't square Biblically in any sense of the word. Considering that Todd Bentley is not a pastor in a denomination, I'm not really concerned about would have happened had he been in one... especially since it is denominationalism that leading the Evangelical movement to a long, slow, painful death. The Bible does say that when a brother sins "you who are spiritual should restore him." However, the Bible does not clarify what exactly that means. To that end, putting formulaic restrictions on the process is not Biblically justified and should not be understood as such. Here is the other fun part... those verses you quoted are refering to leadership in a local church... however, it doesn't say that you have to be the "husband of one wife" to be a member of the church or even to be saved... something to think about for you who argue for the biblical view of marriage. Even more interesting is that one of the qualifications Paul gives for being a leader in a church is that their children are well-behaved... which means a number of pastors in pulpits today are Biblically unqualified from being pastors. Consider then what your dogma really means...quote:
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“It was most odd, thought Gladys, that God would regularly come in power enough to knock her off her feet and make her twitch, but not enough to heal even a little of her sickness. Meanwhile, her friend Maria honestly didn’t understand why when she and everyone else she knew had enough faith to be “slain in the Spirit” at a meeting, none of them had enough faith to be healed. Or so the healing revivalist claimed." Lapidoth, considering that the link you have here is a blog (which is a dubious source at best) that only seems to have purpose in making poorly drawn cartoons to mock the Charismatic movement, it truly seems inappropriate when we are specifically discussing Todd Bentley.
To that end, I have no interest in someone attempting to pawn their poorly made commentary to the world as "End Time Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog." It isn't that I lack a sense of humor... it is that that particular site is nothing but one person setting up a blog to mock fellow Christians. To me, that is inexcusable.quote:
ACCOUNTABILITY
LINK
also a new board of directors..............................LOL I honestly don't know what you find funny. Unless you are taking the word "new" to mean that Todd fired all of the old ones in a fit of egomania and needed new lapdogs (which is a judgment that you are grievously unqualified to make), I see nothing laughable on that page.quote:
Reading between the lines are we..? No where have I stated God could not use him in a mighty way...If he truly repented, was truly restored, and truly followed the Lord he could probably go a long way. Does it seem to you he has truly repented, been truly restored, and truly follows the Lord..?
Matthew Allow me to jog your memory... quote:
Todd is definitely(sp) no Saul of Tarsus, and will never attain the position that Paul the Apostle did. You are making a judgment that you are, once again, unqualified to make. The only people who know the future are God and those to whom God has revealed a small part of it. So before accusing me of reading between the lines, you might read the lines you are writing and reconsider your tact.
In answer to your question, I cannot say if his repentence is true or not. One, that isn't my place- two, he has been pretty much off the radar since he entered into counseling with Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner. Has he been truly restored? Since even he says that he is still in process, I am going to say not yet. Does he truly follow the Lord? I think he has and is. Him following the Lord does not mean that he does not sin ever, and sin does not disqualify someone from following the Lord (amen for that). If either of those were the case, humanity would be in a lot of trouble because (A) no one in the church is truly following the Lord, or (B) no one can ever be saved because we have all sinned. Once again, not a difficult formula.quote:
Sooo, maybe you can produce the dead that were raised to life... And if I can't, that proves that Todd Bentley knowingly foisted a hoax on an otherwise unassuming church in Florida? That doesn't even begin to make sense. Once again, please consider the implications of what you are writing before writing it. Me not being to "produce the dead that were raised to life..." actually says nothing about Todd Bentley but more about whether or not I was analyzing the Lakeland stuff with a microscope. But you see, I have this thing called "a life" that keeps me relatively busy and not always on top of everything that ever happens in the name of Christianity. Since I also know that people exaggerate, finding out that someone claimed a miraculous resuscitation that never happened doesn't shake my faith in God's miraculous power or sovereignty in any way... it merely means that somebody got a little loose with their imagination. If Todd Bentley said it, you would have to prove that he was not being metaphorical or hyperbolic... which is a tough sell when you attempting a translation from Charismania to Evangelical-speak.quote:
If he truly 'read' God's Word he would know God's Truth, just as I had stated in my post. Okay, stop the train right here. This is what I have been digging at since I jumped into this thread a year ago. You are assuming that your system of belief in the meaning of scripture is so radically simple, easy, and undiluted that it should be obvious to any numbskull who picks up a Bible. Not only is that intellectually dishonest, but it is also radically ignorant and dishonoring to Christians who may hold a different opinion. To be as clear as possible, a fair number of people who would disagree with you about Todd Bentley's doctrine would make the exact same claim. To that end, your attempt at empiracy becomes absolutely bankrupt and proves your argument to be little more than dogmatic sniping.quote:
Peter had issues with the Jewish traditions, of which he was raised in, versus the 'new' traditions he and the other apostles were working, learning, and growing into; I see no connection with his trying to understand a 'new' tradition, and Bentley's unbiblical issues. So Peter is allowed to struggle with fear of man and doubt in the supremacy of Christ to the Law (which would arguably send you to Hell), and yet Todd Bentley's issues in doctrine (which center mostly around his claimed experiences) are somehow more glaring and disturbing, even though Peter physically walked with Christ and learned directly from Him for 3.5 years? This is the height of idiosyncratic reasoning.quote:
Zacchaeus did...
Matthew Zacchaeus did. Zacchaeus is also the only one that Jesus encounters in the gospel's who does so. We need also remember that Zacchaeus was a tax collector, meaning he was extorting money from people who had no choice but to pay him. Todd Bentley, on the other hand, legally sold books, cd's, and collected voluntary offerings. No one put a gun to anyone's head and said "give Todd Bentley money". No one was under threat of imprisonment if they chose not to give. That is why Zacchaeus is an anomaly. In fact, Zacchaeus would only be an appropriate example if Todd Bentley was a minister of Government... which he really isn't.
Apollos was a man of power that had only known the Baptism of John... which meant that he was arguing people into Judaism. When Aquilla and Priscilla heard of it, they took him aside and instructed him more accurately in the things of God. When Todd Bentley has doctrinal error, we try to run him out of town. Go figure.quote:
And where exactly have I personally stated he was the 'embodiment of evil..?' He is my brother, a lost one whom I am required to pray for. I never said I hated him, don't know why you think we 'hate' the man...We hate his actions And so the various "tool of Satan" references are how you show love to a brother? Allow me to say that I am very glad we are not related. "Charlatan", "Fraud", "Liar"... these have all been used in this thread in reference to Todd Bentley... I fail to see how that is love. If you love your brother, you go to him and tell him to stop lying... you don't go to his girlfriend and start telling her about how she can't trust him because he doesn't know how to tell the truth. That is why I am convinced that you do not love the man.quote:
actions that have caused hurt and grief, and caused the Lord's church to look like a circus... I trust that you are sincere in your feelings. However, I have a very serious objection to this line of reasoning. Since when do we care if the church appears to be a circus? Need I remind you all that prior to the Edict of Milan in 313AD and the "Romanizing" of the church, the early post-apostolic church was viewed as cannibalistic vampires because of Communion? If you are really stressed because someone is making the church look like less than an impressive edifice of all things prim and proper, you really would have been a fish out of water in the early church. Acts 2, "These men are not drunk like you think they are...". 2Corinthians, "for if I am out of my mind, it is for your benefit...". Acts 4, "Look upon their threats and grant to your servants that with all boldness they may speak your word by stretching forth your hand to heal... and when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken." I am really ready for the day when the church will look the world in the eye and say like David, "I will become even more undignified than this!" That is where your reasoning falls horribly flat. We are trying everything in our power to appear "respectable", "put together" and "with it", when Jesus is looking to put an end to our pride and beckon us into the humility of the cross. I tell you that it is impossible to be respectable when you are hanging naked from a tree.quote:
If you knew anything about mentoring you would know that being a spiritual father has nothing to do with physical age. A twenty year old could very well be a mentor (spiritual mentor/father) to a sixty year old! Even a person who has been a 'Christian' for thirty+ years can be mentored by a younger person. It is not an age thing, it is a relationship thing. I know that, but you are dodging the question. Once again, since when you are you your pastor's spiritual father? By definition, the pastor is the spiritual father of the church. If the pastor is not so, he has no business being the pastor because he is still learning. The fact is that the pastor (in American ecclesiology) is the leader/preacher/shepherd of the church that he is in (and is most likely under a board of elders). By that definition, the pastor is the spiritual father of the church. So... forget the semantics of the mentoring (which I never really brought up). The question is, who made you the spiritual mentor of your pastor?quote:
Yet it would seem that you are judging most on this thread for bringing to light the falseness of Mr. Bentley... In case you forgot, sir, I am not the one calling people "false teacher", "false prophet", "charlatan", "fraud" or anything of the sort. All I have done thus far is argue with the statements as they have been given to me. As yet, no one has offered a good reason for us to be drubbing Todd Bentley's character in a public forum, and, as such, give so much of our time to the discussion on him.
I also notice that you declined to state what you think my point to be... so either you really don't know when you claimed you did, or that it doesn't matter what my point is because we need to give our attention to raking Todd Bentley over the coals.quote:
I haven't missed your point at all, rather, I totally understand the point God made in:II Peter 2:1-6, or in Acts 17:12, or in Revelation 2:1-2 and 2:6. Digrieze, for not missing my point, you haven't yet addressed it. Since you have referenced scripture (always a plus), let us examine the passages you have raised...
2Peter 2:1-6-- The context of this passage (beginning at 1:16) is Peter talking about the glorification of Jesus as being divine and establishing his own credibility for preaching this fact. It is in that context that he begins to talk about false teachers and destructive heresies, "even denying the Lord who bought them." So, in fact, Peter is not talking about people with mere errors in doctrine such as Bentley, but is talking about people who are completely debasing the Christian faith and are not even saved (which would be more along the lines of Brian McLaren denying that faith in Jesus is the only way to forgiveness, or Rob Bell not believing that there is actually redemptive power in the cross). So... are you going to have the chops to say that Todd Bentley is actually beyond the realms of orthodoxy to the point that he is not saved? If you do, I would severely question that statement because Fresh Fire USA's presentation of the Gospel. Enough said... unless you are outright calling Bentley an unredeemed heretic, this passage does not address our topic.
Acts 17?-- Just a guess, but I think you got the address wrong... "Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men." However, verse 13 shows the Jews coming to Berea to stir up the crowds against Paul, so the Bereans send Paul away for his own safety. Once again, the people stirring up the crowd are the Jews... IE, people who are outside the faith and purposefully attempting to destroy it. Once again, are you really saying that Todd Bentley is outside the faith and purposefully attempting to rip the church apart?
Revelation 2:1-2, 6-- The letter to the church at Ephesus... notice, it is written to the church at Ephesus about them testing men who came to them claiming to be Apostles but were liars. It also says that "you tested who say they are Apostles". It doesn't say that they went around declaring those men to be charlatans and frauds. The church of that city tested those men, they did not stand up, the church moved on. However, it also contains a commendation because they cannot stand those who are evil. Is Todd Bentley evil? Is he really any more so then any other member of the church? We are all evil and we are all in process of being redeemed... some of us have more hiccups along the way than others, but we are all in process. Before moving on to verse 6, however, I feel we should make a stop in verses 3-5... While Ephesus was commended for all of these things that you are using them as an example of, God tells them that they have blown it because they have forgotten their first love. In doing so well at everything else, the church in Ephesus has neglected the First Commandment... Love God. Do not make the mistake of holding the Ephesian church up as the standard bearer of what Christianity is supposed to be, because even they got it wrong. In fact, the only church that gets out without a rebuke of some sort is the Philadelphians... even though they were weak, even though they were suffering under the power of those who claimed to be Jews but were not, they persevered. God did not rebuke them for not rooting out those people, but rather, God commended them for remaining faithful and persevering... and then gave them the biggest promise out of any of the seven churches. Keeping that in mind, we turn to verse 6. All that really needs to be said there, is that we don't even really know who the Nicolations were. We know they existed because they get mentioned sporadically throughout first century literature, but most of the actual nuts and bolts of their movement are obscured. We know that God didn't like them (which implies some hefty immorality), but I am just not comfortable with making an analogy between them and Todd Bentley.quote:
God's Word is clear that there WILL be those who come among us with evil in their hearts (like-ministering by knocking an old mans tooth out maybe?). If that is your standard of evil, then you really have a watered down definition of what "evil" is. Evil is wanting to pull people away from the faith. Evil is wanting to pose as a minister to mock the church. Evil is mocking the church to pay for your rent. Evil is not being over-zealous and accidentally injuring someone... that is called an accident.quote:
It is also clear that we ARE to judge them and the standard is to be scripture, not our denominational preferences. Also clear is that we are NOT to tolerate them in our presence, in fact, we are to HATE what they do. And when we are talking about one of those people, I will be right behind you. Todd Bentley is not one of them. The aforementioned Jesus de Miranda guy... he is one of them. I would even make concessions for considering Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, or some of the other Emergent type people. But there is a clear difference between them and Bentley. Namely, who they say Jesus is and what they believe the significance of the cross is. So once again, until we are discussing one of those people who actually do have evil in their hearts and are attempting to destroy the church, we are going to be on opposite sides in this one.quote:
I doubt you'd see Bentley change his acquantences or give back anything. If his heart was so hard he could beat up old people and say God told him to do it his conscience(sp) is so seared a little thing of the money will doubtfully affect him. Not to be trite... but I find this statement funny. You should try reading some of the stuff Smith Wigglesworth did. He actually took a dead body and flung it against the wall... and the guy came back to life. When someone came to him for prayer for a stomach tumor, he actually punched them in the gut and the tumor came out of their mouth. There have been weird things like that before. So I wouldn't be too worried about over-zealousness.quote:
To use a real example, Jim Bakker I can see resored to ministry. He's gone through the journey (including stepping away from that ministry). Far different from Bentley.
Yeah...... except Jim Bakker is back on television selling ugly trinkets and knick-nacks to make ends meet... exactly like he did before his scandal broke. I'm not going to argue about Jim Bakker because I really don't care... his doctrine is so lightweight that it really doesn't matter to me what he says. But you cannot expect me to believe that Jim Bakker has clearly repented because he spent over 10 years out of the spotlight and Todd Bentley can't be repented because he spent less than a year. Honestly, God sometimes does in the space of hours what would otherwise take years, so that isn't a hang up for me. As for his lawyering habits, I really don't care because Todd Bentley's personal life does not involve me. The stuff you have mentioned regarding his divorce is about the same kind of stuff I would expect to find in a gossip column in the USA Today.quote:
However, we would still have those that come in pretending to be christian leaders with some super-insight from God. The Bible warns us of them, and there are (have been, and will be) those who are willing to put on the show and tell the lie to lead the untaught and gullible to follow them instead of Christ. The question is, is that Todd Bentley? Is he pretending to have some super insight from God to get people to follow him instead of Christ? If your answer is yes, then I will need you offer some kind of proof to back that statement up, because I cannot just take your word for it. The Jesus de Miranda guy... absolutely without a doubt, he is pretending to have revelation to get people to follow him. That is why he called himself Jesus for a while. When the true deceivers show up (and not the merely incorrect), it is going to be very obvious who they to the believing church. It is the lack of Biblical teaching in Western Christianity that is the problem, not the people with bad doctrine. What is more egregious? The rampant error in the Western Church, or the fact that there is almost nowhere to get the Truth in the Western Church?quote:
Look...there are so many Bentelys out there that many people believe the goings on are the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Adultery included. Is that a statement of fact or of your opinion? Frankly, I have never met anyone who thinks that the Gospel is okay with adultery... inside the church or outside of it.quote:
Your questions seem to indicate that I am prejudiced against the man personally and want some kind of satisfaction. Considering that you are questioning the quality of his repentance and have spend who knows how long arguing that the man is a tool of satan, you would seem to have something personal against him... And since you have questioned his repentance, it is only fair to ask what you would accept as repentance. If a public statement of such is not enough, what is? quote:
The one thing I would like from the whole motley crew is that they stop saying God told them to do and say what they do and say...because He did not. But I know that will not happen.......deception and itching ears make a great team. Once again... and here I was thinking I was cynical.........
You know, I am reminded of a Baptist pastor who said once, "It is not our place to judge the Word of God. It is our place sit and let the Word of God judge us." I'm not entirely sure who you are referring to as "the whole motley crew", but I'm almost positive they don't deserve to be associated with that particular rock band... **shudder**
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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