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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 4:13:47 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, delivered & drmark. This really helps me to understand where you are both coming from. It all truly does come down mainly to definitions, although, I believe there is more to it than that.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 4:49:50 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I suppose I don't put as much importance on whether sin is deliberate or not, because the end result is exactly the same. My main point is that the saved still accidentally sin. Well, if I may respectfully say so, McFatty, this is why your understanding of holiness is faulty! The end result is NOT the same since God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience and requires confession and repentance when we intentionally sin. He graciously provides His Son's Righteousness for our sins of ignorance and often will convict us, making them known transgressions of His Will.
quote:
Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin This is faulty reasoning because, under the New Covenant, the Law is summed up in the Two Greatest Commands. How can we love others with God's love if we do not even know whom to love and how to love?
Answer me this, McFatty. Do you think Jesus never accidentally stubbed His toe, hit His thumb with a hammer, mismeasured a carpenter's job, stuttered in speech? Of course He did if He was fully human living in a fallen world! Why are you holding me to a higher standard than Jesus?!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 5:17:22 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, this is so right on the subject! I work for a church, and the pastor and I were discussing next week's sermon topic, which is about living the clean life in this dirty world. I was looking for usable art work and photos for the sermon and found a nice usable photo of dried-up dirt.
So I went in his office and, without thinking, said, "I was looking at some dirty pictures...."
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 5:21:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, if I may respectfully say so, McFatty, this is why your understanding of holiness is faulty! The end result is NOT the same since God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience and requires confession and repentance when we intentionally sin. He graciously provides His Son's Righteousness for our sins of ignorance and often will convict us, making them known transgressions of His Will.
quote:
Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin This is faulty reasoning because, under the New Covenant, the Law is summed up in the Two Greatest Commands. How can we love others with God's love if we do not even know whom to love and how to love?
Answer me this, McFatty. Do you think Jesus never accidentally stubbed His toe, hit His thumb with a hammer, mismeasured a carpenter's job, stuttered in speech? Of course He did if He was fully human living in a fallen world! Why are you holding me to a higher standard than Jesus?!
Oh, my friend, Mark! Wow! I am at work, and break is over so I must go, but what Scriptures support each one of your arguments?
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 6:15:03 PM
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Dennis2
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quote:
You are only free from sins power and temptation to the degree to which you are dependent upon Jesus Christ. In and of yourself you are powerless against sin. Christ is our power. Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God.
Yes, as we grow there will be less sin on our lives. Our ever increasing dependency upon the Holy Spirit, leads of us into ever deeper understanding of truth. This is part of the process that conforms us into the image of Christ.
UR,
I can remember when I first accepted Christ I was part of a denomination.
I became a good church goer. I also had a traveling job and had developed a habit of padding my expense account. My original supervisor even did this. I found it difficult to give it up. I knew the command: "Do not steal." I would rationalize. "But Lord I really need this extra money."
It was not until I came to know my identity in Christ and the indwelling life I have that I found the actual desire to say NO to cheating. Part of that identity is knowing I am a totally forgiven Saint. Knowing that I have forgiveness did not cause me to want to continue cheating. Knowing the penalty that Christ paid for me caused me to desire to stop. God initiates, we respond.
Dennis
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 6:44:30 PM
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drmark
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quote:
DrMark,
I normally agree with most of the things you say. Unless I am misunderstanding what it is that you mean by this statement, I must disagree.
These things quoted are not sins Exactly, deliveredarling, yet that is what McFatty and others would like us to believe. Read his post #249 again. Here is the relevant portion:quote:
I suppose I don't put as much importance on whether sin is deliberate or not, because the end result is exactly the same. My main point is that the saved still accidentally sin. The frustrating part for me is that some people won't admit that. Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin. Can we all admit this?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:08:10 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 982
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drmark:
quote:
quote:
I would say that as we live by Adonai's commands we become holy(set apart).
And I would say Adonai makes us holy so we can live by His commands!
Exactly, it's a chicken and egg thing, but Adonai came first. Or maybe I should say it's an upward spiral. He sets us apart, so we can do those things that set us apart even more.
quote:
quote:
we realize that we are holy
quote:
Holiness is not arrived at on this earth
These two statements are mutually exclusive, gmc4. Unless you feel our realizations as holy people are merely self-deception. Please clarify!
The problem we have with terms like holy is that we add connotations to them. If I am not mistaken, holy simply means set apart. As in the holy prostitutes in the temple of dianysis. The are not righteous, but they are set apart for a particular purpose. That is why we are not to be just holy, but holy as He is holy, set apart for rigthteousness. Now, we are set apart for the purpose of becoming more righteous.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:09:26 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I suppose I don't put as much importance on whether sin is deliberate or not, because the end result is exactly the same. My main point is that the saved still accidentally sin. Well, if I may respectfully say so, McFatty, this is why your understanding of holiness is faulty! The end result is NOT the same since God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience and requires confession and repentance when we intentionally sin. He graciously provides His Son's Righteousness for our sins of ignorance and often will convict us, making them known transgressions of His Will.
Mark, what Scripture says that quote:
God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience I am frankly stunned that you believe this. I think -- remember now: this is just my opinion! -- this comes from people ignoring the first writings! I know that most people, while they see no present-day personal/spiritual value in the older Scriptures, do see them as lessons for later. I am wondering, if you do regard them as lessons for the present day, why you might believe G-d told Israel and those who loved her G-d, to do sacrifice for unintended sin, when those sins became known, if they were not indeed sins while the person didn't know about them?
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin This is faulty reasoning because, under the New Covenant, the Law is summed up in the Two Greatest Commands. Do you intend, then, that all the commands are irrelevant, except the "two" Messiah spoke about when He was asked to summarize all the commands? That was a summarization of all the commands, Mark, and the intent was not to say that none of the commands He was summarizing mattered anymore individually.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/12/2008 7:15:48 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:12:54 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Very perceptive post drmark. Thank you for your compliment, Brother James, but I need to give credit where credit is due. In his book, A Right Conception of Sin, Richard Taylor discusses the basic fallacy of imputed righteousness alone in Chapter 3. Perhaps you will find it useful in your preaching and teaching.
drmark,
I began reading Richard Taylor's book that you linked. He has done such an excellent job of refuting the teaching of "imputed righteousness." I attended a Wesleyan College and Church for quite some time and am very familiar with John Wesley's teachings. His teachings are very similar to the Orthodox teaching on "theosis."
I'm sure you realize drmark, that the teaching of "imputed righteousness" is rampant within Christianity. To oppose it, one risks being called a "heretic."  When one looks intently and closely at what this teaching condones and permits, it is difficult to believe that a Christian could consider it as something which any of the apostles taught. In essense "imputed righteousness" instructs believers that no sin, however servere or deplorable, can effect the salvation of said believer. Richard Taylor alluded to the fallacy that in this teaching sin has an effect upon the unbeliever, but none on the believer. After all, if one is saved, then one is saved no matter what, no matter what sin he/she commits.
Luther's idea also comes to mind. He considered that Christians are like dung underneath snow. God does not look at the dung, but rather the snow. Thus it is that he wrote a sermon called "Sin Boldly." In it, Luther extols the idea that no matter how much we sin as Christians, we have nothing to fear for Christ's imputed righteousness is ours. Therefore "sin boldly."
The sad result in this whole idea of imputed righteousness is that the Christian is steered away from the idea that we are to be "changed into His likeness." Rather, the Christian is wrongly persuaded that the entire nature of sin is redefined and therefore he can avoid responsibility for the wrongs he has done by claiming "Christ did it all for me." Thus he really has no obligation to do anything. God on the other hand, is obligated to receive the willful, sinning Christian who has no remorse for any of his wrongdoing since becoming a child of God.
Go figure.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:21:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
...the Christian is wrongly persuaded that the entire nature of sin is redefined and therefore he can avoid responsibility for the wrongs he has done by claiming "Christ did it all for me." Thus he really has no obligation to do anything. God on the other hand, is obligated to receive the willful, sinning Christian who has no remorse for any of his wrongdoing since becoming a child of God.
While I understand that there are some who believe such (shall I write it? Yeah!) drivel, for you to claim that all of us who disagree with you believe that is very interesting and makes you appear to be very uninformed.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:35:40 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
quote:
There is none who is righteous, not even one. This verse refers to our own doing. God makes righteous all those who consecrate themselves in faith and submit to the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit. THIS IS BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE!
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous." I John 3:7
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:39:37 PM
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Bluethread
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That leaves us with the questions of, What is His Likeness? and How are we changed?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:52:03 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
...the Christian is wrongly persuaded that the entire nature of sin is redefined and therefore he can avoid responsibility for the wrongs he has done by claiming "Christ did it all for me." Thus he really has no obligation to do anything. God on the other hand, is obligated to receive the willful, sinning Christian who has no remorse for any of his wrongdoing since becoming a child of God.
While I understand that there are some who believe such (shall I write it? Yeah!) drivel, for you to claim that all of us who disagree with you believe that is very interesting and makes you appear to be very uninformed.
Covaan,
I'm not quite sure what it is you are saying to me. Such is the nature of cyberspace. But if you think I'm saying that all on these forums believe in this wrongful understanding of "imputed righteousness," such is not the case. But I would say this teaching has increased in its popularity among many Christians.
So again, what is it specifically that you are trying to say to me?
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 7:53:55 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
That leaves us with the questions of, What is His Likeness? and How are we changed?
We are changed from servants of sin to servants of righteousness;
(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(Rom 6:17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I think verse 15 ia especially pertinant to this thread.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 8:17:55 PM
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Heavendweller
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The following is a passage from which I think we can at least begin a discussion about what it means to live a holy life.
"Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal." Hebrews 12:12-16
The 12th verse shows that we must participate in our growth as Christians. That there is a responsibility on our part, an effort which is required in order for us to grow in His grace and knowledge. This verse also reminds me that Christ is our Healer, our Great Physician, and when we work together with Him, He heals our infirmities.
As I look back on my life in Christ, I am able to see areas in which the Holy Spirit has granted me victory over sin. Those sins are no longer a temptation for me. However, I still must fight the good fight of the faith, because sin is still couching at the door. While the kind of sin I am tempted with has changed, nonetheless, I am still tempted. So it is that I see it as extremely important and necessary to begin each day in prayer to my Heavenly Father. Oh how necessary it is for me to give my will over to Him and ask for His guidance and protection. I ask Him to keep me and to use me as His instrument of peace. I also ask Him ro make my thoughts His thoughts, my words His words, and that my heart will yearn after Him. I ask that He will help me to listen to His voice.
I have learned throughout the years that when I have ignored Christ and gone ahead with my day not submitting my will to His, the day hasn't gone very well. So it is that by this simple means of beginning the day with prayer I can slowly be changed into His likeness.
This is only a part of holy living, but certainly integral to being a victorious Christian.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 8:32:14 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience I am frankly stunned that you believe this. Abiyah, I would be frankly stunned if you believed Christ's Atonement did not cover our sins of ignorance! But I know you believe in the Atonement, which is why G-d does not hold us accountable for unintentional errors, imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses. This is precisely the place where imputed righteousness alone is efficacious. For willful disobedience, we better have godly sorrow, confession, repentance, and submission because we are accountable for deliberate sinning!
quote:
Do you intend, then, that all the commands are irrelevant, except the "two" Messiah spoke about when He was asked to summarize all the commands? That was a summarization of all the commands, Mark, and the intent was not to say that none of the commands He was summarizing mattered anymore individually. Tell me, Abiyah, what possible OT command or law could be broken if we love G-d with all our being and others as ourselves? Do you intend to label all disobedience of any Levitical Law by Gentile Believers as sin when the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 refused to put such a yoke on them?
quote:
I began reading Richard Taylor's book that you linked. He has done such an excellent job of refuting the teaching of "imputed righteousness." I attended a Wesleyan College and Church for quite some time and am very familiar with John Wesley's teachings. His teachings are very similar to the Orthodox teaching on "theosis." Thanks for the kind words and excellent insight, Heavendweller. I would be honored to have you visit the Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread sometime and share some of your doctrinal experiences, as God leads you.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 8:52:38 PM
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Heavendweller
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To continue along this line, I would like to refer to verse 15, "that no root of bitterness" spiring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled."
This verse reminds me of forbearing one another and if one has a complaint against another, forgiving one another. It is love in action. This means I am expected to love my husband, love my children, love my brothers and sisters in Christ. The works of the flesh are what causes divisions and hurts the body of Christ.
We are expected to walk (action) by the Spirit, and not to gratify the desires of the flesh. This walking by the Spirit is also part of fighting the good fight of the faith. It is something we must do and yet we are equipped to do it. We have been given the necessary means whereby we can live victoriously as Christians. But we must "lift our drooping hands" to take advantage of what God has put at our disposal. It is this victorious living as Christians that makes us holy and separate from the world. But if we call ourselves Christians, but don't live like Christians, then we are not examples of holiness either to the body of Christ or to unbelievers.
"Finally be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on (action) the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Ephesians 6:10
"Therefore take (action) the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded (action)your loins with truth, and having put on (action) the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod (action) your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; besides all these, taking (action) the shield of faith, with which you can quench (action) all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take (action) the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Pray (action) at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance (action) making supplication for all the saints," (action) Ephesians 6:13-18
I think all of these verses show the responsibility of the believer in Christ. These are things He expects us to do. Yes, we need the indwelling Holy Spirit within us to do these things, which He has given to His children. So it it that we participate with Christ in "working out our salvation with fear and trembling."
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:29:28 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I suppose I don't put as much importance on whether sin is deliberate or not, because the end result is exactly the same. My main point is that the saved still accidentally sin. Well, if I may respectfully say so, McFatty, this is why your understanding of holiness is faulty! The end result is NOT the same since God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience and requires confession and repentance when we intentionally sin. He graciously provides His Son's Righteousness for our sins of ignorance and often will convict us, making them known transgressions of His Will.
quote:
Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin This is faulty reasoning because, under the New Covenant, the Law is summed up in the Two Greatest Commands. How can we love others with God's love if we do not even know whom to love and how to love?
Answer me this, McFatty. Do you think Jesus never accidentally stubbed His toe, hit His thumb with a hammer, mismeasured a carpenter's job, stuttered in speech? Of course He did if He was fully human living in a fallen world! Why are you holding me to a higher standard than Jesus?!
That's an incredible stretch. I do think that Jesus never stuttered in His speech when He hurt Himself, if that is truly considered a sin (which is a debate for another thread). However, I certainly don't hold anyone to a Godly standard, as it is not my place to do so. However I think it's interesting that you said willful disobedience requires confession and repentance. That I agree with completely. I humbly admit to having needed to do that on several occasions. If you haven't, congratulations.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:55:47 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
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quote:
I do think that Jesus never stuttered in His speech when He hurt Himself, if that is truly considered a sin (which is a debate for another thread). Actually, you're the one who confused the terms "slip-ups", "sin under full responsibility without sin being the intention" and a "mistake resulting in disobedience". I have absolutely no idea how anyone can figure out what "is truly considered a sin" with such a jumbled theology!
quote:
I humbly admit to having needed to do that on several occasions. If you haven't, congratulations. Please re-read my post #226.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 10:44:28 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 222
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