RE: Be Holy? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

Papa-san -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:31:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I am a recovered alcoholic without any need or desire for alcohol. It's called complete surrender and deliverance. I gave it to Him and He removed. Your response indicates that you are still holding on to it.
There is a difference between an alcoholic drinking and the "normal" person drinking. Obviously, we can't do it responsibly.

Well, I am not holding on to it. I have given it all to Christ. He simply hasn't taken it away completely. My belief is that the reason for that is to keep me humble. You know, I wonder what Paul's thorn in the flesh was? Any guesses? I know what mine is.

It isn't sin anyways, but that's a different thread. The sinning is what I used to do while under the influence of the stuff. I no longer do those things, nor have a desire to do them. That is why I consider myself to be recovered as well. Sanity has returned. Complete abstinence has never worked for me, so I quit beating myself over the head with guilt, and behold, I hardly ever drink, and I never do it in response to problems in my life. That is sane use, I believe... and considering I was an alcoholic from the age of five, that's pretty good.

As to the topic here, I'll re-iterate that the grace we have been given is not license to sin. If I do happen to sin, I'd better be sure I tried to stop it first! As long as I am following that general guideline, I tend to do pretty well. The times I don't are when I fall... It takes effort...



Papa-san -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:51:56 AM)

I just finished reading the thread...

It sounds to me like some are saying, in essence, that we have to clean up our act before we can come to Christ. I believe that we come to Him quite broken, and THEN He begins the work of transforming us into His image.
I think the point that is being tossed to and fro is what this transformation really is.

We renew our minds by filling them with His word, then He transforms us.

I believe that when we willfully sin after our salvation, there are consequences for that: Our temporal situations change in response to it. In the spiritual realm after we leave this earth, I think it's different: When God looks at a saved person before His Throne, He doesn't see that person... He sees Jesus. Is He going to 'punish' Christ again? I think not...



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 1:11:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I think once again, we are debating the evidence of salvation based on the "fruit" we bear. My understanding of what RC is saying is that once salvation has occurred, we will not knowingly, willingly and continually sin, because that does nor bear the evidence of salvation but rather the old self still living. I do not hear him saying that we won't sin, but if we do, we will immediately repent and turn from it.
What I hear you guys saying is that we have an automatic forgiveness whether ask for it or not. i don't hear a license to sin. The concern hear is the dismissal of sheparding the sheep. Maybe not making clear the importance of living a holy life, not because we have to or are required to, but because we desire to please our Father and we desire to be obedient to Him. maybe I'm off the mark here, but that is what I see and I share those concerns regarding the body. In Matthew it talks about the four types of soil, (the 4 types of "Christians", maybe that will help clarify???????? Just a suggestion.


Well said. While we are delivered from all sin by the sacrifice of Jesus, we have to exercise the faith to believe in Him, the decision to repent and say "NO" to temptation daily and choose to remain in that covenant relationship for eternithy.

On the one hand, we can't do it without the help and grace of God. On the other hand, if we don't put some changes in our life because of what Jesus has done inside us (and with the help and power of the Holy Spirit), our walk with God will soon falter and we will again be trapped in the ways of the world.

I brought this question up to discuss the awareness that we are holy by the saving grace of Jesus, but at the same time, we must live a life worthy of one who wears the name "Christian". If we are going to be called one, we should also act like one.

I pray that all future comments will seek to build on harmony rathter than trying to find issues to argue over. We want to build up one another in Christ.

God bless you all as you build the holiness into your daily living that God gave you when you accepted Jesus Christ's sacrifice for your sins.



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 8:35:36 AM)

quote:

Christians are capable of committing an unintentionally sin and if that sin is backed with a repenting heart I think God is quite willing to forgive.
Bob, how can anyone repent of something about which they are ignorant? Or do you mean that an attitude of repentance is required for God to forgive our unintentional sins? If we are constantly repenting for unknown actions, how will we ever find time to be effective witnesses for the Gospel?



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 8:44:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Christians are capable of committing an unintentionally sin and if that sin is backed with a repenting heart I think God is quite willing to forgive.
Bob, how can anyone repent of something about which they are ignorant? Or do you mean that an attitude of repentance is required for God to forgive our unintentional sins? If we are constantly repenting for unknown actions, how will we ever find time to be effective witnesses for the Gospel?


Just a quick drive by post before I am off to my monday meetings. How do you think the model prayer instructions of Christ "Forgive us our tresspasses and we forgive those who tresspass against us" might figure into what you and Bob are discussing. or does it not have anything to do with it.

I will be back later to answer Gracebro and URForgiven.

Thanks
RC



bob97 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 11:39:36 AM)

drmark…I always pray with a repenting heart, knowing that I am not living up to the Holiness of God and that I am falling short of the accomplishing His will. Some of these transgressions I am aware of; a short temper is one on my downfalls and others that I’m not aware of.

I could excuse my temper, saying that I’m never mad very long or that I don’t burden others with it because I keep in internal but the point is I don’t think it is something that Christ would do.

I don’t have anything in my life that I persecute myself about but I have a lot that needs to be improved on…I’m still a work in progress and will be until the day I meet my maker. I’m quite sure that He will have a list of things that we will need to discuss. [8|]

Bob



bob97 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 11:44:42 AM)

RC...I think the recognition that we fall short of the mark is very important. Doesn't it have something to do with being unassuming? [:)]

Bob



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 11:47:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Christians are capable of committing an unintentionally sin and if that sin is backed with a repenting heart I think God is quite willing to forgive.
Bob, how can anyone repent of something about which they are ignorant? Or do you mean that an attitude of repentance is required for God to forgive our unintentional sins? If we are constantly repenting for unknown actions, how will we ever find time to be effective witnesses for the Gospel?

The problem with unintentional sin has been before the human race from the beginning, and G-d knew it; otherwise, he would not have provided a sacrifice for unintentional sin. It was provided that when the person became awayre of the sin, they were to bring a sacrifice before the L-rd, with repentance. (Note: There never was a sacrifice for deliberately-committed sin.) If there was a sacrifice, then G-d understands that it can happen and expects us to take care of such things when they arise in our lives.

I know that I have committed unintentional sins. As they come to my attention, I repent of them.



Lapidoth -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 11:50:57 AM)

I haven't read the thread.

But, I do repent of unknown sins.
Not every day, but from time to time.

You never know if you may have offended someone in passing.
On the phone, at the parts store, etc. Or, perhaps we may offend
someone by something we said at church.

"If I've offended anyone, forgive me Lord, and help me correct it if I can."



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 11:51:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Christians are capable of committing an unintentionally sin and if that sin is backed with a repenting heart I think God is quite willing to forgive.
Bob, how can anyone repent of something about which they are ignorant? Or do you mean that an attitude of repentance is required for God to forgive our unintentional sins? If we are constantly repenting for unknown actions, how will we ever find time to be effective witnesses for the Gospel?


Just a quick drive by post before I am off to my monday meetings. How do you think the model prayer instructions of Christ "Forgive us our tresspasses and we forgive those who tresspass against us" might figure into what you and Bob are discussing. or does it not have anything to do with it.

I will be back later to answer Gracebro and URForgiven.

Thanks
RC

The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

The prayer was conditional. If we also include: Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. This seems to contradict verses that emphatically say we were reconciled by the death of the Son.
After the cross we see: Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. The Lord forgave us completely. It is not a contradiction because we are under the New Covenant. Part of the New Covenant declares: Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.That is why we are holy: Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Love in Christ
Dennis



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:04:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet. Those who have been called to place their trust in Messiah and have done so certainly have the new covenant written upon their hearts, as they have from Abel, but this does not mean that the new covenant, as mentioned in Jeremiah and Hebrews, has been ushered in according to those Scriptures.

Also, the Bible is a Hebrew book written by Hebrews. What you do not appear to understand is that in Hebrew custom, going back for aeons, the testator did not have to die for the will to be legally used. I think Messiah knew that. [:)] The idea of Messiah having to die before the will was legal is errant. One easy example of this is in His story of the father, prodigal, and older brother. The father was not out of order to give the sons what they wanted upon being asked.



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:12:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

The prayer was conditional. If we also include: Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. This seems to contradict verses that emphatically say we were reconciled by the death of the Son.
After the cross we see: Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. The Lord forgave us completely. It is not a contradiction because we are under the New Covenant. Part of the New Covenant declares: Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.That is why we are holy: Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Just taking a break from all these wonderful meetings I am attending.

Dennis, are you saying that sin committed after salvation has no effect on our relationship with Christ or our future relsationship (Heaven)?

Just sin away, enjoy the sin, it does not matter to God? Or am I not reading your post correctly?

Be back tonight

Thanks
RC



Lapidoth -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:12:53 PM)

quote:

The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant.


Welcome to crosswalk Dennis.

This is the first time I've heard of the "Lord's Prayer" as under the Old Covenant.

I do recognize that as a Prophet, everything He did was by the Torah.
And I've always called this the "Disciples Prayer." John 17 is my "Lord's Prayer." lol.

New or Old, I still the prayer model as valid.

Start out by praising God.
Pray God's will be done,
Petition our needs,
repentance,
direction,
Giving glory to God.

This has always been a good model for someone who has trouble praying.
Spend five minutes on each part of the model and you will have prayed an hour.

A time or two of that, and you can pray for hours without a model.



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:14:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.


When?


Right here...

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living." Hebrews 9: 15-17



Lapidoth -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet. Those who have been called to place their trust in Messiah and have done so certainly have the new covenant written upon their hearts, as they have from Abel, but this does not mean that the new covenant, as mentioned in Jeremiah and Hebrews, has been ushered in according to those Scriptures.

Also, the Bible is a Hebrew book written by Hebrews. What you do not appear to understand is that in Hebrew custom, going back for aeons, the testator did not have to die for the will to be legally used. I think Messiah knew that. [:)] The idea of Messiah having to die before the will was legal is errant. One easy example of this is in His story of the father, prodigal, and older brother. The father was not out of order to give the sons what they wanted upon being asked.



You bring out some very valid points.
We are so engulfed by our denominational ponders we miss
what the Scriptures truly say and teach.

Of course, we live in a day that our signature means nothing, much less our word.
I'm old enough to know a few good men that bound themselves to their word.
They were their word.

That's the one thing I really appreciate about the Creator.
He is His WORD. I can rely upon it.



bob97 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:18:48 PM)

The Bible tells us that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world for our sins.

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time.

I agree with Covaan_Meshuga, all are saved under the new covenant, from day one up until the time it will be totally fulfilled in the House of Israel and the House of Judea.

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:23:04 PM)

Here's Hebrews 9:15-16 from "The Scriptures"

"And abecause of this He is the Mediator of a renewed covenant, so that,
death having taken place for redemption of the transgressions under the
first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of the
everlasting inheritance."

"for where a covenant is, it is necessary for the death of the covenanted
one to be established."

Verse 17 --->
"for a covenant over those dead is firm, since it is never valid while the
covenanted one is living."
Verse 18 ---->
"Therefore not even the first covenant was instituted without blood."

Blood Covenants were always by "blood."
The covenant in Yeshua's Blood ensures that it cannot be revoked.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 12:25:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.


When?

Right here...

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living." Hebrews 9: 15-17

According to Hebrew custom, the testator can wait until death, or can give out the promised items whenever the testator pleases, as I mentioned in the store of the father and sons, but while the testator lives, that testator still holds some interest. The new covenant was, then, written on the hearts of many from long ago: Abel, Abraham, Moses, etc. are examples of this, when the Testator gave of His grace to these persons. He did not have to actually die first.

But can you show me where the new covenant has been completely distributed according to the Scriptures in Hebrews and Jeremiah? That has not yet been done.



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 3:54:08 PM)

quote:

Some of these transgressions I am aware of; a short temper is one on my downfalls and others that I’m not aware of.
I appreciate your humility, Bob, and I'm not here to debate semantics (despite what others may think), but if you're "aware of your downfalls", then they cannot be sins of ignorance, can they?

quote:

The problem with unintentional sin has been before the human race from the beginning, and G-d knew it; otherwise, he would not have provided a sacrifice for unintentional sin.
So Adam and Eve were plagued by unintentional sinning before the Fall? Where do you find this concept in Scripture, Abiyah?

quote:

When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet.
That is one interpretation, but many Wesleyan/Holiness theologians would disagree. The concept of entire sanctification may well represent the crisis and process of G-d writing His Law on our hearts as He makes us holy, not merely sees us as holy.

quote:

But can you show me where the new covenant has been completely distributed according to the Scriptures in Hebrews and Jeremiah? That has not yet been done.
Well, I'm sure several of you will consider me naively uninformed for not keeping up with the latest eschatologic arguments, but frankly, there is a much simpler way to understand this prophecy. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in its entirety in Hebrews chapter 8 and the context makes it clear (at least to this Holiness Believer) that the prophecy has come to pass with the priesthood of Christ which can make all of us holy, blameless, pure and sanctified as we submit to Him.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 4:33:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
The problem with unintentional sin has been before the human race from the beginning, and G-d knew it; otherwise, he would not have provided a sacrifice for unintentional sin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
So Adam and Eve were plagued by unintentional sinning before the Fall? Where do you find this concept in Scripture, Abiyah?


Please forgive my unfortunate error in typing. My intention was to write:
quote:

The problem with unintentional sin has been with the human race from the beginning, and G-d knew it; otherwise, he would not have provided a sacrifice for unintentional sin.
By this, I intended from the early days. Is there still a question? Sorry -- I am not the best typist, and I was in a hurry to get to work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
That is one interpretation, but many Wesleyan/Holiness theologians would disagree. The concept of entire sanctification may well represent the crisis and process of G-d writing His Law on our hearts as He makes us holy, not merely sees us as holy.

I'm sorry, Mark, but it isn't an interpretation -- it is clearly written in the Scriptures. If Wesleyan/Holiness theologians are teaching otherwise, they are ignoring the clearly-written Scripture that these verses are written of Israel, and Israel is named directly in them! Mark, I don't think they would do that. As I have written many times before, we who love the L-rd are enjoying that new covenant, just as the early fathers did (Abraham, Moses, Abel, etc.) but those particular Scriptures have not yet taken place, because they are promises to Israel. G-d has never made written covenant with any nation other than Israel, but we can come into covenant with Israel as we trust the L-rd through the Scriptures given to Israel, as we are grafted into the olive tree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
But can you show me where the new covenant has been completely distributed according to the Scriptures in Hebrews and Jeremiah? That has not yet been done.


quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, I'm sure several of you will consider me naively uninformed for not keeping up with the latest eschatologic arguments, but frankly, there is a much simpler way to understand this prophecy. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in its entirety in Hebrews chapter 8 and the context makes it clear (at least to this Holiness Believer) that the prophecy has come to pass with the priesthood of Christ which can make all of us holy, blameless, pure and sanctified as we submit to Him.

Mark, these are not "the latest arguments." These are Scripture. Please reread the Scriptures you mention. It clearly says that this is for Israel. This prophecy has been enjoyed by a holy people way longer than 27 - 40 c.e. Abraham and so many others also lived by faith in Messiah. Read the faith chapter, my friend.



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 5:38:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet. Those who have been called to place their trust in Messiah and have done so certainly have the new covenant written upon their hearts, as they have from Abel, but this does not mean that the new covenant, as mentioned in Jeremiah and Hebrews, has been ushered in according to those Scriptures.

Also, the Bible is a Hebrew book written by Hebrews. What you do not appear to understand is that in Hebrew custom, going back for aeons, the testator did not have to die for the will to be legally used. I think Messiah knew that. [:)] The idea of Messiah having to die before the will was legal is errant. One easy example of this is in His story of the father, prodigal, and older brother. The father was not out of order to give the sons what they wanted upon being asked.

When I read the book of Hebrews I can only glean that the New Covenant was ushered in at the death of Christ.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!15 ¶ For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance— now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

Was the New Covenant only to Israel? Why then does Paul say:2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶ He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant— not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

He does say "letters on stone". I can only see that as meaning the Old Testament or the Law.
Was Corinthians only written to Israel?

To have God's laws written in our heart means we have the mind of Christ. The laws are the laws of love. They fulfull the entire Law.
We are taught by the Spirit and He would never teach us contrary to the Law.
Because we have the eternal resurrected life of Christ we are holy.

Love in Christ,
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 5:49:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

The prayer was conditional. If we also include: Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. This seems to contradict verses that emphatically say we were reconciled by the death of the Son.
After the cross we see: Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. The Lord forgave us completely. It is not a contradiction because we are under the New Covenant. Part of the New Covenant declares: Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.That is why we are holy: Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Just taking a break from all these wonderful meetings I am attending.

RC, Meetings are great aren't they. Glad I am retired

Dennis, are you saying that sin committed after salvation has no effect on our relationship with Christ or our future relsationship (Heaven)?
RC If He is not counting our sins against us as His word says then that must be true. However with His resurected life living in us we will not be wanting to live in sin.
Just sin away, enjoy the sin, it does not matter to God? Or am I not reading your post correctly?
RC I never said this, you did. God wants to renew our minds. Love ya,
Dennis.

Be back tonight

Thanks
RC



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 6:05:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lapidoth

quote:

The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant.


Welcome to crosswalk Dennis.

Thank you Lapidoth. I am enjoying the fellowship.

This is the first time I've heard of the "Lord's Prayer" as under the Old Covenant.

Hi Lapidoth, The cross is the dividing line in God's dispensation of dealing with His creation. Christ lived and taught under the Old Covenant so the prayer was a model if you will for that dispensation.

I do recognize that as a Prophet, everything He did was by the Torah.
And I've always called this the "Disciples Prayer." John 17 is my "Lord's Prayer." lol.

Lapidoth I agree the John 17 is the real Lord's prayer. Here Christ is praying for the disciples and those after them would learn to have the same relationship with Him as He had with the Father while Christ was here. Christ did and said nothing apart from what the Father told him to say or do. Christ showed us how man was intended to live. To be indwelt with God and learn to be totally dependant upon Him. In this relationship we need no model.

New or Old, I still the prayer model as valid.

Start out by praising God.
Pray God's will be done,
Petition our needs,
repentance,
direction,
Giving glory to God.

This has always been a good model for someone who has trouble praying.
Spend five minutes on each part of the model and you will have prayed an hour.

A time or two of that, and you can pray for hours without a model.

I find it strange that in verses just prior to the "Lords Prayer" Jesus tells his disciples not to pray over and over the same prayers.
Love in Christ,
Dennis



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 7:13:32 PM)

Hey guys,
You are having a somewhat intersting discussion, but how are you connecting this in to being holy and what it means to be holy?

The thoughts about the Lord's Prayer remind us that while we are made holy by God's grace through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we still have an obligation to live as holy people. That we ask forgiveness for our sins reminds us that we are still working on becoming more like Jesus. It also reminds us that we are working on being more holy, not just continuing on in the status quo without letting God come in and change us to become more like Jesus.

The Old Covenant was to teach us that we are sinners who need a Savior in order to draw near to God. The New Covenant establishes that God sent His Son to save us from our sins, purify us, sanctify us (make us holy) so we could have a close and intimate love relationship with Him.

If the Old had been perfect, there would have been no need for the New (cf. Hebrews 8:7-13). Although there is much to guide us and learn from in the Old Covenant, it never offered salvation. It only rolled back the penalty until Jesus died on the cross. The New Covenant offers eternal life and makes it possible for us to change our lives to live like saints, people who are set apart to serve God with love and joy.

How can we become more holy? How do we balance the difference between what God has done through Jesus, and what we must do if we want to accept Jesus as our Lord and allow Him to come in and change our lives?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/5/2008 7:54:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.

When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet. Those who have been called to place their trust in Messiah and have done so certainly have the new covenant written upon their hearts, as they have from Abel, but this does not mean that the new covenant, as mentioned in Jeremiah and Hebrews, has been ushered in according to those Scriptures.

Also, the Bible is a Hebrew book written by Hebrews. What you do not appear to understand is that in Hebrew custom, going back for aeons, the testator did not have to die for the will to be legally used. I think Messiah knew that. [:)] The idea of Messiah having to die before the will was legal is errant. One easy example of this is in His story of the father, prodigal, and older brother. The father was not out of order to give the sons what they wanted upon being asked.


When I read the book of Hebrews I can only glean that the New Covenant was ushered in at the death of Christ.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!15 ¶ For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance— now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

Was the New Covenant only to Israel? Why then does Paul say:2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶ He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant— not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

He does say "letters on stone". I can only see that as meaning the Old Testament or the Law.
Was Corinthians only written to Israel?

To have God's laws written in our heart means we have the mind of Christ. The laws are the laws of love. They fulfull the entire Law.
We are taught by the Spirit and He would never teach us contrary to the Law.
Because we have the eternal resurrected life of Christ we are holy.

Love in Christ,
Dennis

I was going to answer you now, but I'll need some toothpicks to hold my eyes open, which would hurt, and I'm not good with pain. Get back to you when I am awake. Have a blessed evening!



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI