|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/7/2008 9:54:00 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1608
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
My favorite verse on the subject is;
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 11:05:53 AM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
delivereddarling,
Nowhere do I advocate that we should dismiss sin. I hate it when I sin.
However the Lord did leave me with flesh that is in conflict with the Holy Spirit living in me and I do listen to my flesh much too often.
I think you will probably agree that this is true.
The difference is how we respond. I agree with God or confess that I have blown it. I see now that I failed to trust God in what ever situation I was in and attempted to depend upon my emotions or feelings instead of God's truth. I was not allowing the love of God to flow through me.
I also agree with God that He has taken that sin away and He did so 2000 years ago. Jesus paid a terrible price for my sins. What a heart of gratitude I have for Him.
Now if I ask God to forgive me when He already has then it must mean I do not believe He took them all away on the cross.
So to me I thank Him and ask Him to renew my mind. He would tell me to go apologise to anyone I may have offended. I would know I need to get out of the way and trust Him more.
Dennis
Hi Dennis
Well said. I couldn't agree with more.
rileykins
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 11:19:36 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3203
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
drmark,
I like all these verses. You should, Dennis, they are from God's Instruction Book! So perhaps one day you will see that the Lord did not leave you with flesh that is in conflict with the Holy Spirit without providing you a way to die out to that flesh. God bless you as you grow closer to Him!
quote:
What I do know is that I have not reached a point of perfection, because I err -- often. May I gently and respectfully suggest, Abiyah, that real Christian perfection is not reaching a point of never erring. That is not possible as long as we live in earthen vessels in this fallen world! What I would say about myself is that I have not yet reached the point of complete maturity, just as Paul wrote in Phil 3:12-13.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 12:26:26 PM
|
|
|
Dennis2
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
If I had to try to earn my freedom I never could.
I don't understand what you see as earning anything from Him. All of my works are filthy as rags. I can't repay Him for anything, however I do believe that He has expectations for us. The whole NT is full of them.
I don't try to earn my salvation, I am assured of it. Confession and repentance are apart of those things.
I referred to 2 Cor. as a demonstration of Paul putting this into action. Seeing as He was taught by Christ, It would seem to me that He would teach others those same things. The guy in 2 Cor. refused to repent. Paul booted him out in order for him to turn from his wicked ways. When he did turn, Paul lovingly welcomed him back. I fully believe this is what Christ does for us. We sin, we straggle, we come to our senses, confess, ask for forgiveness and He waits patiently to welcome us back. He never forces himself on us. He doesn't walk away, we walk away from Him.
I gotta tell ya, we have been debating this same issue for weeks now on different threads. I have seen a few who hold your position. I have not changed my position yet and don't believe that I will. I think it is far from the truth. I don't doubt that you love the Lord and are very sincere. This just doesn't happen to be a doctrine I can believe in. I thank God it is not my job to convince anyone. That would be such a task. May God bless you.
I came to Christ by faith and did not earn redemption, reconcilliation, forgiveness, eternal life, sanctification, perfection in His sight, Holy in His sight, seated with Him in the Heavenly realms.
I can only walk by faith in what He has done and wants to do in and through me.
I cannot not earn points by trying to do these to make myself hollier etc. We seem to agree on these points.
I can learn to enter His rest as Hebrews says. In resting He produces the work in and through me. He disciplines me and matures me. So I agree the word is a book of discipline. Discipline prepares us for the game. Discipline is not punishment.
I agree our biggest disagreement is you continue to think you have to ask for forgiveness. Do you understand how serious sin is? You have diluted the wages of sin down to being out of fellowship or you have a bad mark against you. The penalty for sin is death not an apology. Jesus took the penalty and there is no more penalty to be paid. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. He paid it all.
Thank you Jesus.
Dennis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 12:49:58 PM
|
|
|
Dennis2
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
If I had to try to earn my freedom I never could.
I don't understand what you see as earning anything from Him. All of my works are filthy as rags. I can't repay Him for anything, however I do believe that He has expectations for us. The whole NT is full of them.
I don't try to earn my salvation, I am assured of it. Confession and repentance are apart of those things.
I agree.
The defining verse to me concerning whether a Christian chooses to sin or not is;
(1Co 10:13) No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
This tells me as a Christian that by God's Grace, the Sacrifice of Christ, the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and faith in the Word of God to be true; that when temptation rears its ugly head I can make the choice to endure that temptation and not sin.
It is nothing I do other than make the decision, just as a made to decision to use the God given Faith to be saved to begin with.
If I choose to sin; then through Godly sorrow, confession, repentance, and God's Grace I can have that restored position with Christ.
Thanks
RC
RC,
The wages of sin is death. It is not being out of fellowship or a spanking. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ is not returning to deal with sin anymore. He has already done so.
So if one makes the choice to sin after coming to Christ for eternal life then one would die again if He did not take that sin away. We know that Christ is not going to deal with sins again. So if He did not take them all away once for all we could only at best have temporary life.
He has given us eternal life. His resurrected life living in and through us will not lead us to "sin up a storm". He will discipline us and renew our minds.
Love in Christ,
Dennis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 12:53:03 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4617
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
I cannot not earn points by trying to do these to make myself hollier etc. We seem to agree on these points.
I can learn to enter His rest as Hebrews says. In resting He produces the work in and through me. He disciplines me and matures me. So I agree the word is a book of discipline. Discipline prepares us for the game. Discipline is not punishment.
It is not about trying to do these things to make oneself holier; it is about obedience, Jesus said in His Word;
(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
and His Word tells us;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So we are told to both confess our sins and to repent of those sins by the Word of God, to not be obedient by confessing and repenting would cause one not to be able to call Christ Lord.
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 1:08:12 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3203
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
The wages of sin is death. It is not being out of fellowship or a spanking. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ is not returning to deal with sin anymore. He has already done so Then why do so many Christians struggle with sinning, Dennis? I think you're posts indicate some confusion between sin (as the carnal nature) and sins (as the various acts of sinning). The end result of the unregenerate carnal nature is death. The Atonement does indeed "deal with sin" (the carnal nature) by providing a once-and-for-all solution. In my tradition and experience, we call this "entire sanctification". However, this spiritual state does not remove the possibility of ever sinning again. Thus, John writes in 1 John 2:1 that if we sin by specific disobedience, then Jesus speaks on our behalf, when we confess, repent, and allow the Holy Spirit to resume control. This is NOT losing our holiness, much less our salvation!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 2:01:25 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 539
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The wages of sin is death. It is not being out of fellowship or a spanking. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ is not returning to deal with sin anymore. He has already done so Then why do so many Christians struggle with sinning, Dennis? I think you're posts indicate some confusion between sin (as the carnal nature) and sins (as the various acts of sinning). The end result of the unregenerate carnal nature is death. The Atonement does indeed "deal with sin" (the carnal nature) by providing a once-and-for-all solution. In my tradition and experience, we call this "entire sanctification". However, this spiritual state does not remove the possibility of ever sinning again. Thus, John writes in 1 John 2:1 that if we sin by specific disobedience, then Jesus speaks on our behalf, when we confess, repent, and allow the Holy Spirit to resume control. This is NOT losing our holiness, much less our salvation!
They struggle with sin because they refuse to truly believe that God has forgiven them, and because of that error, they are living in unbelief. They are unbelieving believers.
They are totally forgiven children of God who are living as though they are not. They have made Gods grace ineffectual, and it is grace that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness. The very thing that can help them, is the very thing they reject.
So they focus on their sins. When God is saying, "Focus on Me! Because when you focus on Me, you will not sin!"
The truly tragic result of this is shown in the individuals lack of ever truly experiencing the life of Christ in them.
Until a person rests in the finality of the cross, they will never rest in the reality of the resurrection.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 2:36:34 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4617
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The truly tragic result of this is shown in the individuals lack of ever truly experiencing the life of Christ in them.
Until a person rests in the finality of the cross, they will never rest in the reality of the resurrection.
And so you are advocating that this would be them ignoring their sins committed after salvation. That kind of brings us back to being in the arms of adultery, dying, and waking up in the arms of Jesus. In other words saying it is quite alright and ok to sin after salvation.
Weak, very weak.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 2:54:28 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3203
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
They are unbelieving believers. Complete oxymoron, URF. The correct answer is that they are unsanctified Believers who need the grace of God to crucify their carnal natures and the power of the Holy Spirit to live victoriously over sinning.
quote:
The truly tragic result of this is shown in the individuals lack of ever truly experiencing the life of Christ in them. The truly tragic result of persistent unrighteousness and willful rejection of God's grace is damnation!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:01:54 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The wages of sin is death. It is not being out of fellowship or a spanking. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ is not returning to deal with sin anymore. He has already done so Then why do so many Christians struggle with sinning, Dennis? I think you're posts indicate some confusion between sin (as the carnal nature) and sins (as the various acts of sinning). The end result of the unregenerate carnal nature is death. The Atonement does indeed "deal with sin" (the carnal nature) by providing a once-and-for-all solution. In my tradition and experience, we call this "entire sanctification". However, this spiritual state does not remove the possibility of ever sinning again. Thus, John writes in 1 John 2:1 that if we sin by specific disobedience, then Jesus speaks on our behalf, when we confess, repent, and allow the Holy Spirit to resume control. This is NOT losing our holiness, much less our salvation!
They struggle with sin because they refuse to truly believe that God has forgiven them, and because of that error, they are living in unbelief. They are unbelieving believers.
They are totally forgiven children of God who are living as though they are not. They have made Gods grace ineffectual, and it is grace that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness. The very thing that can help them, is the very thing they reject.
So they focus on their sins. When God is saying, "Focus on Me! Because when you focus on Me, you will not sin!"
The truly tragic result of this is shown in the individuals lack of ever truly experiencing the life of Christ in them.
Until a person rests in the finality of the cross, they will never rest in the reality of the resurrection.
Hi URForgiven
One big fat AMEN to that!!
Another reason why believers struggle with sin is because they have placed themselves under some form of law keeping system and so they end up in the Romans 7 experience of constantly trying to do good, but always failing, because they have yet to realize that the strength of sin is the law. And when your life revolves around you trying to keep up with some kind of law keeping righteousness performance system your focus will always be on yourself, you'll be operating in a sin-centered mentality in which you will always be falling short, it's a sure fire recipe for failure everytime. God's answer to the believer's sin problem is Calvary and our having died with Christ once and for all to sin, been buried with him and raised in newness of life. You are so right UNForgiven, until a believer comes to understand the absolute finality of the cross and his identity in Christ, he or she will never come to experience the real victory over sin that God in Christ has provided for us.
rileykins
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:11:43 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 539
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The truly tragic result of this is shown in the individuals lack of ever truly experiencing the life of Christ in them.
Until a person rests in the finality of the cross, they will never rest in the reality of the resurrection.
And so you are advocating that this would be them ignoring their sins committed after salvation. That kind of brings us back to being in the arms of adultery, dying, and waking up in the arms of Jesus. In other words saying it is quite alright and ok to sin after salvation.
Weak, very weak.
Thanks
RC
Once again RC, this is your own perverted twisting of what is said, to fit your personal ideology. It's just silly.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:14:14 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 539
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
They are unbelieving believers.
Complete oxymoron, URF.
Of course it is..that is the point!
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:21:24 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4617
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Once again RC, this is your own perverted twisting of what is said, to fit your personal ideology. It's just silly.
Hey, hey, hey, don't get fiesty with me; you are the one advocating that it is ok to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:22:56 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
They are unbelieving believers. Complete oxymoron, URF. The correct answer is that they are unsanctified Believers who need the grace of God to crucify their carnal natures and the power of the Holy Spirit to live victoriously over sinning.
Oh I think that URForgiven has it exactly right on! Plenty of believers today are operating in unbelief. For instance when the Lord through Paul says that we are not under law but under grace, many believers will say, oh, no but we must have the law as our boundary to keep us from sinning.
Or when the Lord through Paul says that salvation is a gift, by grace through faith, I know for a fact that many many believers really don't believe it otherwise they wouldn't add to this the many things that they do! How many believers really believe that it's the grace of God that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy lusts? If they really did believe that then why call the grace of God a liscense to sin, or call it stupid things like "cheap" or "easy believism."
rileykins
unsanctifed believers? talk about an oxymoron!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:25:37 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 539
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Once again RC, this is your own perverted twisting of what is said, to fit your personal ideology. It's just silly.
Hey, hey, hey, don't get fiesty with me; you are the one advocating that it is ok to sin.
Thanks
RC
I am not getting fiesty, you are, and you are transparent to all. 
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:44:43 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 539
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Well, what seems to be promoted here is the idea of putting ourselves in a higher position than we are. He is still God and we are still sinners and will be until we are with Him. To deny that we are sinners without a need for forgiveness is CHEAP GRACE and EASY BELIEVISM. It just is.
This is a new doctrine that draws many, preys on many, who don't know the truth. Jesus gave us fair warning these doctrines would come about. I tell ya this gate of doctrine is super wide with very unknowing sheep following behind. 
Oh yeah, it is new and it is drawing people like flies. LOL. 
First, it is not new, it is as old as Christianity itself...it IS Christianity.
Second, do you see this being accepted here, easily? Really?
It would appear that your rationalization breaks down on all fronts.
The flesh is opposed to grace, always has been, always will be. It is natural for man to understand the Law, but it takes the Spirit of God to understand and accept Grace.
This is not a message that appeals to the masses, for it is a narrow road, and few are willing to follow it.
I am sure those here who understand Christ's finished work on the cross, and who experience the indwelling resurrected life of Jesus Christ, would agree with me, that it is like pulling teeth for most they come in contact with.
We are loving you DD, you may not see it, but we are.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:56:45 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Well, what seems to be promoted here is the idea of putting ourselves in a higher position than we are.
The word of God tells me, and I believe it, that my postion in Christ is eternally secure. I believe it when the Lord tells me that I am crucified with him, buried and raised with Him. I believe it when the word of God tells me that in Christ I have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. I believe the Lord when He tells me that I've been sealed in him and that nothing no nothing in all of creation, including me myself, will ever, ever, EVER be able to seperate me from Him. I believe the Lord when he tells me that my life is hid with Him in God and that I'm seated with him in heavenly places. Talk about a high position!! And that's just the tip of iceberg!!
He is still God and we are still sinners and will be until we are with Him. To deny that we are sinners without a need for forgiveness is CHEAP GRACE and EASY BELIEVISM. It just is.
I find it very offensive indeed to be calling what the Lord did for us on the cross "cheap." Just because salvation is a gift, that doesn't mean it's cheap! It cost God His very own Son! God calls us who believe SAINTS! if that offends you and you think believing that one is a saint because God says that's what we who believe are, then take it up with the Lord, not me, because saint is what a believer is.
This is a new doctrine that draws many, preys on many, who don't know the truth. Jesus gave us fair warning these doctrines would come about. I tell ya this gate of doctrine is super wide with very unknowing sheep following behind.
It's not new doctrine. It's as old as our apostle Paul! Older then Paul in fact. It was hid in God until God revealed it to Paul!! It's called the gospel of the grace of God. But then you have to understand what Paul meant when he spoke of a dispensation of grace. And you can stop thowing verses at me that apply to the unsaved. I most certainly am saved. God knows me quite well, thank you.
rileykins
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 3:59:47 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4617
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Well, what seems to be promoted here is the idea of putting ourselves in a higher position than we are. He is still God and we are still sinners and will be until we are with Him. To deny that we are sinners without a need for forgiveness is CHEAP GRACE and EASY BELIEVISM. It just is.
This is a new doctrine that draws many, preys on many, who don't know the truth. Jesus gave us fair warning these doctrines would come about. I tell ya this gate of doctrine is super wide with very unknowing sheep following behind.
That is the sad side of claiming that we do not have to be obedient to God and His instructions in the Word.
Scripture does of course speak to this;
(2Ti 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(2Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I guess the part that really amazes me is the arrogance of those who think they can sin and not be accountable; who deny that we are to be obedient to Scripture in our walk.
But the great falling away is prophesied and Jesus did speak of those who continued in sin without repentance;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I do believe that the Apostle John knew where of he spoke;
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Continuing in sin without repentance is surely a major no-no.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Be Holy? - 5/8/2008 4:02:53 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 779
Status: offline
|
rileykins
quote:
And you can stop thowing verses at me that apply to the unsaved. I most certainly am saved. God knows me quite well, thank you.
Did I do this???? Pardon me for using God's Word. I didn't realize that I threw verses of scripture that | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
