The Butterfly Effect (Full Version)

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LivingParadox -> The Butterfly Effect (5/5/2008 6:22:34 PM)

Anyone believe in "The Butterfly Effect"? If so, how do you think it plays into God's plan?

For those wondering what "The Butterfly Effect" is ....it's part of chaos theory that attribute that at some level the flapping of Butterfly's wings in Brazil can accumalte to the point of affecting weather patterns as to cause a tornado in Texas. In other words, little actions that often seem unrelated can cause much bigger things.

Anyone ever seen this theory in action?

Thoughts anyone?



mvic -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/5/2008 6:48:13 PM)

Yes - I've read about the Butterfly Effect sometime ago. I really don't know what to believe.

Why is it that we humans try to find an answer to everything and theorise on it ad infinitum? If a butterfy in Brazil can have such an effect, then how about a bee in Belgium or a bird in Australia? Why can't we accept that things just happen ...

I don't mean to be disrespectful to you LivingParadox - you are right to ask the question. I'm afraid I'm too ignorant to give you a meaningful answer. Suffice it to say: let's leave things in God's hands.



Kat_D -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/5/2008 6:52:58 PM)

He who created the heavens and and the earth and every living thing controls that which He has created.

We can attempt to scientifically figure out what God is going to do and when and how He is going to do it, but the final outcome of anything and everything in this world is ultimately up to Him.



sylvan -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/5/2008 7:47:04 PM)

I heard where Edward Lorenz died a few weeks ago.

I believe in the Butterfly effect philosophically. Theories, math, etc. are subjective like everything else apparently. There are a lot of things that can be shown on paper to exist, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Being that this is a Christian forum, I do often think about my actions in relation to the Butterfly Effect. For example, one seemingly innocent comment might in fact plant an angry seed in someone. The next you know, this person is a mass murderer. I think that is the importance here. Be conscious or our actions.

However, from a scientific standpoint, what would cause a variation in the first place. Matter behaves as matter behaves - according to science matter is not conscious. It's not sentient. Matter does respond to various conditions, but ultimately it behaves according to established laws of nature. So, on the fundamental level, I don't believe things are a product of chaos. Chaos doesn't even exist independent of consciousness or sentient beings. We give things meaning. Consciousness is transcendent, non-material, the spiritual domain if you will. Regardless of the scientific theory of the day, whether the Earth is flat or everything spontaneously appeared out of a supposed vacuum, it amounts to nothing more than words. The fact is, there is a cause to what we experience. But, for the scientific-type to assume things are just the result of a spontaneous event or a random variation within a material system, is merely that - an assumption. If that's the case, you might as well call science "mysticism".



URForgiven -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/5/2008 7:49:13 PM)

I would say that Adams sin created quite a butterfly effect...



LivingParadox -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 9:05:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

I would say that Adams sin created quite a butterfly effect...


Exactly! That was the point I was making. Makes you think twice about the things we do and say as even the little things can make a difference.

I wasn't really trying to "sell" anything scientific. I don't necessarily see science as the "enemy" just not as big as God. Ultimately if little things can trigger bigger events because God's hand are over the situation.



URForgiven -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 9:12:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LivingParadox

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

I would say that Adams sin created quite a butterfly effect...


Exactly! That was the point I was making. Makes you think twice about the things we do and say as even the little things can make a difference.

I wasn't really trying to "sell" anything scientific. I don't necessarily see science as the "enemy" just not as big as God. Ultimately if little things can trigger bigger events because God's hand are over the situation.


[;)]



1love1God1way -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 9:47:42 AM)

Who knows how one little seed that is planted will some day become harvested. That journey may be a lot longer and stranger than we could have imagined. Little things we have done years ago that meant nothing back then may have changed a person's life years after the fact.

This is in no way scientifically quantifying God. To me, it just shows how much more so God is involved in every moment and every breath.

One of the people that had the biggest effect on my life. . . I never knew his name, who he was, where he was from. . . All I know is, he offered to pray for me when I was sitting alone one day, and it changed my life. Now I am a Bible college student, studying to be a pastor, and hopefully changing other people's lives. His one small act of obedience has in turn led to a series of events that has helped brought me to this point, and who knows where else it will go and how many other lives will be affected, just because he sat down for a few minutes when I needed somebody the most.



Ignited-Faith -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 5:20:45 PM)

As far as the Butterfly effect, I'm not sure...
Someone I know shared this with me:
They were one day taking a bath, sitting very still
in the water, just meditating on Scripture, thinking of
the Lord... The water was still, like glass...
Something caught the persons eye. Something was
dancing in the water, making a beautiful design!
It was a single piece of hair!
(It was also amazing that the person could see this
without their glasses on!) They watched the hair,
and it began to swirl and spin faster, and looked
like a Tiny Tornado! The person was amazed,
wondering what made the hair spin so wildly?
The water was still... then they heard the little sound, drip...
from the fawcet. Then again about 20 seconds later, drip.
This drip from the other side of the tub was enough to
cause the hair to spin and dance!
(How much is happening in a persons life, even when it seems
nothing is going on? What can a little prayer, or a little act
of kindness do? What is God doing that we can't see at the
moment?)

Ben,
Thanks for sharing your story!
I love hearing about those life changing moments!
Glory to God!



makarizo -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 5:52:20 PM)

the movie "pay it forward" worked like that... one persons act of kindness was paid forward (instead of paid back) and a huge series of events took place because of that one little random act of kindness.



1love1God1way -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 6:04:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

the movie "pay it forward" worked like that... one persons act of kindness was paid forward (instead of paid back) and a huge series of events took place because of that one little random act of kindness.


Or the movie. . . The Butterful Effect? Only less kind.



LivingParadox -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/6/2008 9:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

the movie "pay it forward" worked like that... one persons act of kindness was paid forward (instead of paid back) and a huge series of events took place because of that one little random act of kindness.



Oh that's another great example! I love the movie although I would have preferred a happier ending but such a powerful message.

Reminds me of the likelihood of a poor carpenter born from a virgin mother from a small occupied country that ultimately was crucified would have a message so powerful reach across 2000+ years to billions of people who profess him as their savior -- what's the odds? Never bet against God on the unlikely. [;)]



Ntech -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/7/2008 11:15:13 AM)

It would seem to me that the "butterfly effect" is one of God's preferred methods of operation. A small action that eventually becomes a overwhelming force or action. Look at Christianity for example.


Luke 13
18 Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to?
19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."

Matthew 17
20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."



45degreeN -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/7/2008 2:45:00 PM)

It seems none of the above people truly understand the implications of Chaos theory and the Butterfly effect. It is the ultimate scientific control of everything. To understand a system that appears to be chaotic means that it is incredibly sensitive to initial conditions and the origin was when Lorenz redid a weather forecast using additional decimal places instead of the same exact information and got a totally different forecast. There never was a butterfly at the beginning of this idea, it is only an allegory.

The outcome of this was that there is always some higher order pattern that will show that there is nothing truly "random."



Ignited-Faith -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/7/2008 3:40:59 PM)

45degreeN,
quote:

There never was a butterfly at the beginning of this idea, it is only an allegory.
The outcome of this was that there is always some higher order pattern that will show that there is nothing truly "random."


Thank you!



LivingParadox -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/7/2008 4:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ignited-Faith

45degreeN,
quote:

There never was a butterfly at the beginning of this idea, it is only an allegory.
The outcome of this was that there is always some higher order pattern that will show that there is nothing truly "random."


Thank you!


What it's not literal?!!!

It just lends to the theory that our world is way to complicated to be random. I do agree there are principles our world operates on like gravity but just how a little variance would take our Earth out of orbit. WE ARE IN THE HANDS OF OUR CREATOR.



Strider33 -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/8/2008 4:34:16 AM)

I think you have to take chaos theory with a grain of salt.

To the ancient Athenians, the counterpart to chaos was cosmos. What is "cosmos theory"? I would suggest that it's the study of intelligent design. However, intelligent design may not yield to the kind of dispassionate and morally neutral analysis that has been the hallmark of scientific success.

The Athenians, according to Paul, had built a shrine "to an unknown God". It seems to me as though chaos theory is a natural follow up to the veneration of an unknown God.

"His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me."



jtshafer -> RE: The Butterfly Effect (5/8/2008 9:30:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 45degreeN

It seems none of the above people truly understand the implications of Chaos theory and the Butterfly effect. It is the ultimate scientific control of everything. To understand a system that appears to be chaotic means that it is incredibly sensitive to initial conditions and the origin was when Lorenz redid a weather forecast using additional decimal places instead of the same exact information and got a totally different forecast. There never was a butterfly at the beginning of this idea, it is only an allegory.

The outcome of this was that there is always some higher order pattern that will show that there is nothing truly "random."

Cool!! Do you have any reading suggestions on this.



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