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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 11:02:05 AM
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drmark
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I don't understand why you are posting to this thread. I'm posting to this thread because the title and initial OP of it is controversial, at best, and heretical, at worst. I feel controversy and heresy both need to be addressed on a Christian forum.
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Do you want to explain how a member of the Church of the Nazarene becomes a child of God? Church membership should be a result of conversion, not a prerequisite for salvation. Thus, anyone, church member or not, becomes saved by grace, through faith. This is basic Christian doctrine, Eph4_32, is it not?
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Do you want to debate how a person becomes a child of God? I thought that was the subject of this thread! Please forgive me if I've erred.
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Or did you come here only to needle others for their beliefs? The only needling I've seen was by URF in post #5. Why didn't you respond to that insult?
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If an entirely sanctified person loves other Christians, does he politely answer their questions? Common courtesy and good manners dictates politeness in answering others. That is certainly one characteristic of the sanctified life.
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Or are Christians of other denominations not really brothers and sisters in Christ? I've never once posted this notion on this thread or any other that I can recall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are. That's very reassuring to know, Eph4_32. It would be easy for some to think you might be needling me for my beliefs.
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I believe that God changes the heart of a sinner through regeneration by the Holy Spirit. quote:
I don't believe that a human can make himself/herself a child of God. These are my beliefs as well, so now you understand them.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 12:55:48 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2278
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I don't understand why you are posting to this thread. I'm posting to this thread because the title and initial OP of it is controversial, at best, and heretical, at worst. I feel controversy and heresy both need to be addressed on a Christian forum.
The title is not a statement of my doctrine. It is to let people know the topic of the thread. I'm sorry if I messed up.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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Do you want to explain how a member of the Church of the Nazarene becomes a child of God?
Church membership should be a result of conversion, not a prerequisite for salvation. Thus, anyone, church member or not, becomes saved by grace, through faith. This is basic Christian doctrine, Eph4_32, is it not?
I will admit to short-comings in communicating my thoughts. It wouldn't surprise me if experts diagnosed me with a learning disability of some sort. What I meant to ask is, "How does the Church of the Nazarene explain the new birth?" How does your denomination say that it happens? Does a person become a child of God at the moment he or she prays the sinner's prayer? I've never had this explained to me; but I've not spent very much time with any Church of the Nazarene pastors. Do people become children of God before the Wesleyan crisis of entire sanctification?
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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Do you want to debate how a person becomes a child of God?
I thought that was the subject of this thread! Please forgive me if I've erred.
I don't recall saying anything about debate in the OP. I was trying to learn what people believe, for starters.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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Or did you come here only to needle others for their beliefs? The only needling I've seen was by URF in post #5. Why didn't you respond to that insult?
I'm dumb! I didn't know it was an insult. Now I see that it could have been.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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If an entirely sanctified person loves other Christians, does he politely answer their questions? Common courtesy and good manners dictates politeness in answering others. That is certainly one characteristic of the sanctified life.
This is good to know. Thank you for answering this question.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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Or are Christians of other denominations not really brothers and sisters in Christ? I've never once posted this notion on this thread or any other that I can recall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I didn't say that you had posted that, but I felt some antagonism towards me.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are. That's very reassuring to know, Eph4_32. It would be easy for some to think you might be needling me for my beliefs.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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I believe that God changes the heart of a sinner through regeneration by the Holy Spirit. quote:
I don't believe that a human can make himself/herself a child of God.
These are my beliefs as well, so now you understand them.
When does regeneration take place? Does it take place after a person chooses to follow Christ?
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 2:38:25 PM
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drmark
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quote:
What I meant to ask is, "How does the Church of the Nazarene explain the new birth?" How does your denomination say that it happens? Does a person become a child of God at the moment he or she prays the sinner's prayer? I adhere to the Articles of Faith of my denomination. Please read paragraph 12 under Article IX for the answers to your questions.
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Do people become children of God before the Wesleyan crisis of entire sanctification? Absolutely! Please read the first sentence under paragraph 13 of Article X linked above.
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I didn't say that you had posted that, but I felt some antagonism towards me. I'm sorry for your feelings of perceived antagonism, Eph4_32, but I have no control over them. I only have control over what I post so it would help our discussion if you would not read certain feelings into my posts. Thanks.
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When does regeneration take place? Does it take place after a person chooses to follow Christ? Please refer to paragraph 12 which I linked above.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 6:39:58 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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"12. We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness."
This is clearer than what you had told me previously. Thank you.
Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification?
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 6:47:36 PM
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drmark
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Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification? Prevenient grace - paragraph 7 under Article VII. BTW, faith does not produce justification, the Grace of God does that!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 10:11:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
You can beg all you want, John, but every verse you've quoted has some kind of action performed by man: walk, keep, do, step, delight, devise, be, hear, labor, and will. I'm sorry you cannot grasp the concept of Christ doing "for" or "on behalf of" or "in place of" our actions. It is NOT the same as Christ doing in, through, and with our actions. Your concept is a holy little robot, unable to make any choice but automatically following his predestined program. My concept (the Biblical one) is a partnership with a loving God who graciously supplies all our spiritual needs and expects us to make right choices in, through, and with the Love of Christ.
And yours is nothing short of salvation via works... It's not a loving God that rewards one sinner over another for his or her actions, as if they are somehow better... Your concept has God favoring one over another based on deeds.... That's not biblical... Your unbiblical partnership has man on the same level as God...
John
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/12/2008 10:50:12 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification? Prevenient grace - paragraph 7 under Article VII. BTW, faith does not produce justification, the Grace of God does that!
" 7. We believe that the human race’s creation in Godlikeness included ability to choose between right and wrong, and that thus human beings were made morally responsible; that through the fall of Adam they became depraved so that they cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. But we also believe that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin, and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight."
There's something ambiguous about that paragraph. It says that all men are depraved because of the fall. They cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God? If all men are no longer depraved, God has changed them.
???
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 8:27:39 AM
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drmark
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Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God? Nothing at all ambiguous here. You left out the most important point in your synopsis - the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness. That same grace provides free choice to accept or refuse His love. We are not changed until we are saved.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 8:30:39 AM
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drmark
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And yours is nothing short of salvation via works Well John, it always gets back to your ridiculous and unfounded assertion that faith enabled by the grace of God is somehow a good work in your incorrect theology. We really have nothing further to discuss as long as you hold to this nonsensical position.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 12:40:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
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Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God? Nothing at all ambiguous here. You left out the most important point in your synopsis - the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness. That same grace provides free choice to accept or refuse His love. We are not changed until we are saved.
How can one change if they are not change till they are saved?
John
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 12:47:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
And yours is nothing short of salvation via works Well John, it always gets back to your ridiculous and unfounded assertion that faith enabled by the grace of God is somehow a good work in your incorrect theology. We really have nothing further to as long as you hold to this nonsensical position.
I don't need to discuss your salvation via work, just point it out when you post it... You claim God and man must do things in order for salvation to take place and be maintained... Whatever you wish to call that it is your prerogative, but the bottom line is man must do something in order to be saved... That's salvation by works... Christ isn't the Savior in your doctrine; He's simply the Enabler for those who make the right choice... Of course one can never say why one chooses and one doesn't, or that the one that chooses is better than the one that doesn't... But in your doctrine, you can't help but have the person who makes the right choice be something different than the one that didn't... All glory can't be God's if man is the determining factor in salvation...
God chooses His people...
John
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 5/13/2008 12:53:40 PM >
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 2:01:11 PM
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drmark
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How can one change if they are not change till they are saved? How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.
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All glory can't be God's if man is the determining factor in salvation... Well, that's another issue you'll have to discuss with Him, John. I've already got this one figured out!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/13/2008 8:38:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.
Just because you are in the dark on this doesn't mean everyone else is... So please speak for yourself... You can't explain how because your doctrine doesn't account for it.. It ignores man's state of heart and mind and somehow skips to salvation...
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Well, that's another issue you'll have to discuss with Him, John. I've already got this one figured out!
No need to discuss it with Him... God made it clear that all glory is His... That alone shoots your partnership doctrine down. So in reality you haven't figured it out...
John
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 7:25:44 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Just because you are in the dark on this doesn't mean everyone else is... So please speak for yourself... You can't explain how because your doctrine doesn't account for it.. It ignores man's state of heart and mind and somehow skips to salvation... By all means, John, please explain to us the inner workings of divine grace. I'm eager to see how you get around Isaiah 55:9.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 10:43:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
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How can one change if they are not change till they are saved? How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.
How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person?
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“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 10:57:34 AM
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drmark
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quote:
How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person? That's not what "a denomination" is saying, Eph4_32. Wanting to change is not the same as making the change happen! There are over 20 Scripture references supporting the Biblical reality of prevenient grace in the Articles of Faith I linked in post #28. I'd be happy to find others if desired. On the other hand, if you can explain how God's grace works, please share with us. John hasn't gotten very far with his explanation.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 1:02:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
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ORIGINAL: drmark
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How can one change if they are not change till they are saved? How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.
How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person?
You will not get a straight answer to this... This where the bus always stops... They have man change, and then for no reason God changes them... What's the point of being made a new creature, getting a new heart and the Spirit of God, if man can simply change himself... It's pointless...
John
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 1:06:39 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3186
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quote:
You will not get a straight answer to this... This where the bus always stops... They have man change, and then for no reason God changes them... Wanting to change is not the same as making the change happen! Of course, this simple statement of fact will never be a straight answer to anyone whose man-made theology denies free will!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 3:35:54 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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From: The Crossroads of America
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How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God.
Jeremiah 17
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
How do we get from Point A to Point B?
Point A Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Point B John 9
38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 5:49:32 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3186
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quote:
How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God. Yes indeed, Eph4_32, isn't prevenient grace amazing! Praise God for His loving kindness even to depraved sinners!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 6:54:18 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2278
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God. Yes indeed, Eph4_32, isn't prevenient grace amazing! Praise God for His loving kindness even to depraved sinners!
So, does this prevenient grace of which you speak, change a person's heart and cause that person to want to please God?
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 11:30:27 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3186
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quote:
So, does this prevenient grace of which you speak, change a person's heart and cause that person to want to please God? I've already admitted that I have no idea how God's grace actually works. I do know that God's grace gives us a free will to respond to Him but it seems unlikely that He causes a sinner "to want to please Him", as you put it. Otherwise, would not all sinners be saved - 2 Peter 3:9b?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/14/2008 11:40:24 PM
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