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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 8:07:24 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Actually, it would seem from reading the pages of the NT He wants BOTH.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Please be very careful in speaking of the move of the Holy Spirit as "foolish." Well, I do believe that Paul performed miracles by the power of the Spirit, but this verse suggests to me that the Corinthians were influenced to believe the Gospel by spiritual nature of Paul's apologetics, not the clever articulation of pagan philosophy that these Greeks were used to in debating religious positions.
I was absolutely not referring the the HS as foolish, Dave. I was referring to those mentioned by Jesus in the Matt 7 passage as more interested in showing off their prowess than loving the Lord through their obedience. That is foolish! Really, I'm disappointed you would even think such a thing from me!
< Message edited by drmark -- 5/23/2008 8:15:04 AM >
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 8:14:34 AM
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DaveW
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I apologise if I have misjudged you. Most who say what you said are saying that from a cessationist viewpoint, and thereby rule all miraculous moves as either hoaxes or demonic in nature. That was what I was warning against.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 8:21:30 AM
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drmark
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Apology accepted, but I still do not understand how a "cessationist viewpoint" would imply that any post-apostolic moving of the Holy Spirit is foolish. It seems to me that their disagreement would be with those people claiming special power, not with the Source of the power.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 8:27:43 AM
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DaveW
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They insist that anything that happens CANNOT be the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 9:38:59 AM
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drmark
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Well then, if that's an accurate assessment of the cessationist viewpoint, it appears heretical to me.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 1:25:59 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Actually, it would seem from reading the pages of the NT He wants BOTH.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Please be very careful in speaking of the move of the Holy Spirit as "foolish."
Dave,
It is interesting that you bold verse four and appear to disregard verse 3. Paul is saying that he is weak. It is the Holy Spirit's power in the message he is proclaiming that is the "power of God".
The concern here is as drmark says, people focusing on that "power" in them instead of making the "Fruit" their focus.
I want to see us loving others and leading them to Christ more than showing you how much "power" I have because I am this or do that.
May God help us to develop His Fruit of the Spirit in our lives so the Holy Spirit can use its power to make us powerful and effective witnesses for Christ.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/24/2008 4:16:30 AM
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ceejaye19
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changing of life--from darness to light is important, after all God will give us the power
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Joh 14:12 I tell you for certain that if you have faith in me, you will do the same things that I am doing. You will do even greater things, now that I am going back to the Father.
again if you focus on the power and the fruit of the spirit has not been applied , somehow the power remains but satan now takesover, for he has the power too.he can heal any sickness and so on--except applying for himself the fruit of the spirit..
both of these, the fruit of the spirit and the power should be balanced!!
aslong as you exercise and applied both of these and remain humble in the sight of God!well Glory to God
keep watch for you not to be deceived!
a
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/24/2008 8:15:01 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
The concern here is as drmark says, people focusing on that "power" in them instead of making the "Fruit" their focus.
Perhaps if Christians focused on Jesus, the fruit and power thing would take care of itself.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/24/2008 9:03:16 AM
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drmark
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quote:
again if you focus on the power and the fruit of the spirit has not been applied , somehow the power remains but satan now takesover, for he has the power too.he can heal any sickness and so on--except applying for himself the fruit of the spirit..
both of these, the fruit of the spirit and the power should be balanced!! cj19, I am concerned about the way you state this concept. Fruit "has not been applied" to the life of the sanctified Believer. Rather, fruit is the result of the indwelling Love of Christ as we become filled with the Holy Spirit. I also have grave concerns about your notion that Satan can "take over for he has the power too". This is an unscriptural view of satan's capability according to Matt 12:22-37. In addition, we can never involuntarily be separated by demonic powers from the love of Christ, according to Romans 8:38. Finally, I find it highly unlikely that satan "can heal any sickness" because all sickness is ultimately traceable back to the Fall and satan delights in bringing misery, not health, to all people.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/24/2008 11:59:28 PM
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imallforgod
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URForgiven -- I would agree though the conversation is still quite interesting.
Would you not agree that salvation of thousands did not come until AFTER they were indued with power from on high? The question of fruit then power or power then fruit is much like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg? I would suspect that without power from the Holy Spirit everything we'd do would be of the flesh or self will and not fueled by the Lord... done in our own strength and not the strength of the Lord. Fruit from that would be fleeting and would not last -- hay and stuble.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/25/2008 1:45:44 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: imallforgod
URForgiven -- I would agree though the conversation is still quite interesting.
Would you not agree that salvation of thousands did not come until AFTER they were indued with power from on high? The question of fruit then power or power then fruit is much like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg? I would suspect that without power from the Holy Spirit everything we'd do would be of the flesh or self will and not fueled by the Lord... done in our own strength and not the strength of the Lord. Fruit from that would be fleeting and would not last -- hay and stuble.
I can agree that the power to be saved can come before the fruit. It is the power to recognize temptation before we sin that gives us real power. The Fruit of the Spirit is the motivation, character changing behavior that helps us to become more like Jesus. This Fruit also motivates us to recognize and utilize the Holy Spirit's power to refrain from sin.
Wow! What a privelige it is go have God's Fruit and Power through the spiritual workings of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/25/2008 3:23:39 PM
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imallforgod
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My point wasn't about the power of the Holy Spirit for salvation but was really that there cannot be any fruit without power first. Otherwise it would be soul and flesh driven.
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