Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs?

Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (Full Version)

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Rufas2000 -> Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/12/2008 11:37:23 PM)
My friend is a big fan of the 70s Saturday morning live action kids show "Shazam". He has waited for it to be released on DVD but Time Warner has not done so (not enough profit, fair enough). He bought some bootled copies of the series. Is this ethical? I have no problem with it but if the series ever came out on DVD I personally in his shoes would feel obligated to buy the official DVDs. They'll be much better anyway. I do not care very much about American copyright law but I do care about the moral point / law that a creator and/or distributor (i.. rights owners) has the sole right to make money off their work. But if they choose to make that work unavailable ... And thats the question, discuss.

Random -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 5:41:57 AM)
From Television and Radio

McFatty -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 6:04:57 AM)
To me, if you're not taking profit out of anyone's hands and you're not stealing something you should otherwise pay for, there's no real problem. I agree, though, that if and when the official copy is available, your friend should destroy the bootlegs and buy the DVDs when able.

Rufas2000 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 7:42:43 AM)
quote: I agree, though, that if and when the official copy is available, your friend should destroy the bootlegs and buy the DVDs when able. You must have read my mind and/or blog because that is exactly what I said in my blog. The whole shame about the Shazam series (and keep in mind my friend is the big fan, not me) is that if the rights holders (Time Warner I believe) don't want to put it out on DVD because they don't see enough profit in it (fair enough but ...). So then they should sell the DVD rights to a company that does want to put it out. The Shazam series is one of six live action Saturday morning series from the 70s made by a company named Filmation. Filmation holds the rights to all but Shazam (the most popular one) and sold the DVD rights to a company called BCI. Time Warner could easily sell the rights to Shazam to this company but won't.

JimboFletch -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 8:22:17 AM)
quote: Time Warner could easily sell the rights to Shazam to this company but won't. Then it is their right not to sell or release the rights. We do not have a right to own a copy, whether or not it's a bootleg. When someone owns the rights to any property, whether it's a hocket stick or a TV series, there is no justification for anyone else to make the product available to anyone else without permission from the owner.

McFatty -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 8:30:53 AM)
There is no difference between bootleg copies on DVD (kept under the conditions talked about earlier) and having kept VHS tapes recorded on the VCR from the original air date. Would we have a problem with recording programs from the television?

ta_mosquito -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 8:33:30 AM)
quote: There is no difference between bootleg copies on DVD (kept under the conditions talked about earlier) and having kept VHS tapes recorded on the VCR from the original air date. Would we have a problem with recording programs from the television? That falls under fair use. This is someone SELLING (or buying) the copies, probably making multiple copies to sell, etc.

McFatty -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 8:40:24 AM)
What if you were to download the video files and burn them onto a DVD or buy them for the cost of the blank DVDs from someone who did so?

earthless -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 9:00:23 AM)
Someone pass me a blank CD.....

stellaluna -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 9:10:15 AM)
I ran into this same problem when I had a radio show some years back. I had old tapes of music I wanted to play on the air. The problem was that the songs were out of print. I was able to buy one album off eBay, but I had no luck with the rest. I ended up getting them off Napster. (This was before all the lawsuits.) I know that almost all of those songs are now available to buy legally. It just took time. The problem with what your friend did was buy the bootlegs. If someone had given them to him because they knew he liked the series, I don't see a problem with it. I think he should still try to convince the company to make the show available. Maybe knowing that bootlegs are being sold would help his case. (I used to love Shazam, by the way. Forgot about that show.)

SteveSund -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 9:25:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 Is this ethical? I have no problem with it but if the series ever came out on DVD I personally in his shoes would feel obligated to buy the official DVDs. They'll be much better anyway. I do not care very much about American copyright law but I do care about the moral point / law that a creator and/or distributor (i.. rights owners) has the sole right to make money off their work. But if they choose to make that work unavailable ... And thats the question, discuss. It is copyright infringment and it is illegal. I guess the first question you should be asking is it ethical to violate the law? The owner of the copyright has exclusive use of the material (there are some exceptions, but a bootlegged copy that is sold would certainly not fall under any that I can think of) and can choose to not make it available for whatever reason they want. quote: To me, if you're not taking profit out of anyone's hands and you're not stealing something you should otherwise pay for, there's no real problem. This is not true. While profit loss will be used in a copyright case, it is not a requirement. quote: If someone had given them to him because they knew he liked the series, I don't see a problem with it. Doesn't matter. Non-commercial copying may still be copyright infringement. If you copy material that is copyrighted you can't give it away to other people legally.

kernsfamily -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 9:50:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 My friend is a big fan of the 70s Saturday morning live action kids show "Shazam". He has waited for it to be released on DVD but Time Warner has not done so (not enough profit, fair enough). Is that the DOCUMENTED reason FROM Time/Warner as to why they haven't released the show on DVD yet? Or, are you just making an assumption? Perhaps there are other reasons (legal or otherwise) as to why no DVDs yet.... "word on the stree" has a "SHAZAM" movie listed as coming out in 2009. Someone "mentioned" as playing the leading role: Patrick Warburton, probably best known as "David Puddy" on Seinfeld.... NOTHING "firm" yet....but, someone out there is working on it. perhaps they are waiting on the movie to come out....and do a 'tie in'....

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 10:16:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 My friend is a big fan of the 70s Saturday morning live action kids show "Shazam". He has waited for it to be released on DVD but Time Warner has not done so (not enough profit, fair enough). He bought some bootled copies of the series. Is this ethical? I have no problem with it but if the series ever came out on DVD I personally in his shoes would feel obligated to buy the official DVDs. They'll be much better anyway. I do not care very much about American copyright law but I do care about the moral point / law that a creator and/or distributor (i.. rights owners) has the sole right to make money off their work. But if they choose to make that work unavailable ... And thats the question, discuss. It's against the law... And if your friend is a believer he also violated God's law in that believers are to follow the laws of man that are not in conflict with God's law... It is stealing... If the owner of the material doesn�t choose to make it available that is their prerogative and doesn�t give anyone the right to basically steal it... John

everythingat -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 10:38:08 AM)
Not to take this way from the original topic, but...stellaluna...I thought it was okay to share/download/whatever music if it's out of print? I guess I never really thought about it. There are a lot of sites I know of that won't let anyone share music if it's in print, but if it's out of print, they're fine with it. I don't care much for the ethics of this issue. I think your friend was a bit of a sap for buying them. Only because he could have probably downloaded and burned them himself for little to no cost. What if the people or person that created a show wanted to get them out, but the studio didn't think it worth the money of manufacturing them? Who do the rights genuinely belong to then? The person that created the show, came up with the idea, and put his/her heart and soul into it...or the studio ran by executives who were practically toddlers when it was on television? What if that person consented to others downloading it, but it was the studio that was against it?

Rufas2000 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 11:38:18 AM)
quote: Is that the DOCUMENTED reason FROM Time/Warner as to why they haven't released the show on DVD yet? In a chat with Time Warner on TV shows on DVD website they stated that they were looking into the feasibility of releasing Shazam on DVD. Parameters were already discussed during the chat they were basically "is it worth our time and effort to release this property on DVD?" and "Will it sell enough?" Since this was at least a year ago and no word since it is reasonable to assume they have decided it is not worth their time and effort at this time. My problem is not that they will not release it but rather that they are hoarding it when they could easily sell the rights to someone who does feel it is worth the time and effort to release it. I honestly feel that the copyright law is flawed. I don't believe any company should be allowed to sit on a property when many people would enjoy it. If a company fails to make a product available in the current format (now DVD) then they should lose the copyright. Of course this only applies to items released to the general public. If you recorded yourself singing in the shower and it gets leaked out that is another matter. quote: "word on the stree" has a "SHAZAM" movie listed as coming out in 2009. Someone "mentioned" as playing the leading role: Patrick Warburton, probably best known as "David Puddy" on Seinfeld.... NOTHING "firm" yet....but, someone out there is working on it. perhaps they are waiting on the movie to come out....and do a 'tie in'.... And if the studio confirmed that plan then I personally would wait. But with no way of knowing that why should he. I guarentee you he will have those DVDs on the day of release, if they are ever released. These companies create stuff that has great personal meaning for so many then they hold it hostage. Shazam isn't on TV or on DVD. I feel he should have the chance to enjoy something from his youth. This is a problem mostly with TV shows and especially classic video games. Not so much with music or movies (although I'm sure there are some missing ones) I figured not many would agree and I get the other side but I find it hard to steal something that doesn't exist. If these companies want to make money off a property then make the property available.

Rufas2000 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 11:42:14 AM)
quote: I don't care much for the ethics of this issue. I think your friend was a bit of a sap for buying them. Only because he could have probably downloaded and burned them himself for little to no cost. No computer and he certainly couldn't have gotten the nice packaging. Plus there is a time cost involved as he would have to find them, download them episode by episode, place them on the DVDs. In my mind time is money. He paid $30 for the set, I easily make that in two hours of work so unless it would take less than two hours of my time to do this it wouldn't be worth it to me. Time is much more valuable to me than money. But I understand that is not true of everybody.

Ps103 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 12:15:39 PM)
quote: These companies create stuff that has great personal meaning for so many then they hold it hostage. Shazam isn't on TV or on DVD. I feel he should have the chance to enjoy something from his youth. Wow--what about people whose precious childhood memories were not recorded at all? [8\|] Where is their chance to steal memories from someone? Nostaglia, to me, is not sufficient reason to break the law... Back to the question in the OP--specifically, if something is not available on DVD is it okay to uy a bootleg? No. By that same logic, it should be permissible to buy bootlegs of new films as well, since they are not available on DVD either.

Ps103 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 12:19:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 quote: I don't care much for the ethics of this issue. I think your friend was a bit of a sap for buying them. Only because he could have probably downloaded and burned them himself for little to no cost. No computer and he certainly couldn't have gotten the nice packaging. Plus there is a time cost involved as he would have to find them, download them episode by episode, place them on the DVDs. In my mind time is money. He paid $30 for the set, I easily make that in two hours of work so unless it would take less than two hours of my time to do this it wouldn't be worth it to me. Time is much more valuable to me than money. But I understand that is not true of everybody. You are missing the point, Rufas. It doesn't matter if the bootlegger sold it for 3$, 30$ or 300$--he was selling something he had no right to sell. He did not own it--Time Warner owns it, and if they choose to sell it or not is their choice and their right.

everythingat -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 12:33:30 PM)
Actually, Rufas2000...it probably would have only taken 10 minutes. You could go about your day while the computer is doing the work for you. I do agree with Ps103 about buying them from the bootlegger. But things get tricky when it comes to copyright laws on anything related to art. The first obvious example that comes to my head is Michael Jackson outbidding Paul McCartney for the rights to The Beatles' music. If Paul McCartney burned cd's of The Beatles and sold them, would that mean he was breaking the law and possibly committing a sin?

Jeffo -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 12:39:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 My problem is not that they will not release it but rather that they are hoarding it when they could easily sell the rights to someone who does feel it is worth the time and effort to release it. I honestly feel that the copyright law is flawed. I don't believe any company should be allowed to sit on a property when many people would enjoy it. If a company fails to make a product available in the current format (now DVD) then they should lose the copyright. Of course this only applies to items released to the general public. If you recorded yourself singing in the shower and it gets leaked out that is another matter. If I can be blunt, that doesn't matter. Making up your own rules is really in dangerous territory. As others have said, the law is the law. At first glace, many of the laws in the Bible are "flawed" according to our logic.

Ps103 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 12:50:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: everythingat Actually, Rufas2000...it probably would have only taken 10 minutes. You could go about your day while the computer is doing the work for you. I do agree with Ps103 about buying them from the bootlegger. But things get tricky when it comes to copyright laws on anything related to art. The first obvious example that comes to my head is Michael Jackson outbidding Paul McCartney for the rights to The Beatles' music. If Paul McCartney burned cd's of The Beatles and sold them, would that mean he was breaking the law and possibly committing a sin? Actually, Jackson bought the publishing rights to some songs (not all). McCartney can still do most things with his own songs, although he did have to pay Jackson royalties when he wanted to put the lyrics of the songs in concert programs, iirc. What Jackson essentially got was the right to publish sheet music for the songs, and the right to get royalties when songs are used on the radio, etc. Which accounts for why you do not hear lots of Beatles' songs on oldies stations[;)]

Rufas2000 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 1:36:36 PM)
quote: By that same logic, it should be permissible to buy bootlegs of new films as well, since they are not available on DVD either. But you know they will be. I addressed this when I said that if an announcement was made that if the Shazam DVDs were announced for 2009 then he should wait. quote: Making up your own rules is really in dangerous territory. As others have said, the law is the law. Not the best argument. By that standard abortion is OK because our government has not declared it illegal. Obviously most of us find abortion to be against God's law. This case is nowhere near comparable but I do think our copyright laws need to change. People should not have the right to sit on a copyright forever. Use it or lose it. I just don't feel that something released for public consumption can be owned like a sweater. Perhaps I'll explain when I have more time what I feel would be a fair copyright law that protects those who create while at the same time considering those who consume and enjoy. I think the public owns a piece of any art presented for public consumption. quote: What Jackson essentially got was the right to publish sheet music for the songs, and the right to get royalties when songs are used on the radio, etc. Which accounts for why you do not hear lots of Beatles' songs on oldies stations Perfect example that copyright laws are screwed up. How can Michael Jackson own the rights to something that he had nothing to do with creating when the person who did create it wanted the rights (and was willing to pay gobs of money for)? I'm not sure what I would do as Jackson paid the copyright holder to acquire the rights but there is just something wrong there. quote: It doesn't matter if the bootlegger sold it for 3$, 30$ or 300$- The point wasn't that the cost wasn't that much so it was OK. The point was that I personally would rather pay $30 then spend the time & effort to do it myself. Thanks for the lively discussion. It has gone pretty much how I thought it would. I'm just glad I won't buy "bootleg" DVDs. [;)] Can't trust the quality. Those old shows aren't always wonderful looking after the remastering process. Directly recorded from a VHS tape, no thank you.

Ps103 -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 2:36:52 PM)
quote: Perfect example that copyright laws are screwed up. How can Michael Jackson own the rights to something that he had nothing to do with creating when the person who did create it wanted the rights (and was willing to pay gobs of money for)? I'm not sure what I would do as Jackson paid the copyright holder to acquire the rights but there is just something wrong there. It was a long, sad story that started out with a corporation set up to keep the British taxes from eating up profits, but then there was a takeover of the corporation when McCartney and Lennon were in one of their many arguing periods, so they couldn't fight the takeover because they couldn't agree... Jackson doesn't really have much control over the songs, but he does benefit (or did--I thought he was having to sell them to avoid BK?) from the profits. But he doesn't get to keep all the profits--he still has to split them with the composers, which would be McCartney and the Estate of John Lennon. The songs McCartney lost publishing rights to were not lost when Jackson out-bid him, they were lost around 1969. McCartney did, I think, manage to get the rights to the rest of the material, as well as material written by other composers, so it works out in the end.

SteveSund -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 3:12:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 I just don't feel that something released for public consumption can be owned like a sweater. Perhaps I'll explain when I have more time what I feel would be a fair copyright law that protects those who create while at the same time considering those who consume and enjoy. I think the public owns a piece of any art presented for public consumption. No they don't. The artist owns the right to say how it is distributed. If they change their mind at some time, they certainly have the right to pull it from circulation even if it offends your sense of fairness and rights. Your lgeal options include buying the rights to whatever you want to see distributed or persuading them to release it. I suppose you could also persuade the legislature to loosen the copyright laws. FWIW, they have been around for a long time and are specifically mentioned in the Constitution, in Art. I, Sec. 8.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Ethics of bootleg (otherwise unavailable) DVDs? (5/13/2008 3:29:22 PM)
quote: Rufas2000 I honestly feel that the copyright law is flawed. I don't believe any company should be allowed to sit on a property when many people would enjoy it. If a company fails to make a product available in the current format (now DVD) then they should lose the copyright. Of course this only applies to items released to the general public. What about personal art collections? If a person has art work that was once avaible for public viewing should they later be forced to give it up if enough people desire it? quote: These companies create stuff that has great personal meaning for so many then they hold it hostage. Shazam isn't on TV or on DVD. I feel he should have the chance to enjoy something from his youth . Not a very compelling reason to basically force someone else to release their ownership and or control over their personal property... quote: I figured not many would agree and I get the other side but I find it hard to steal something that doesn't exist. If these companies want to make money off a property then make the property available. Not sure what you mean when you say you find it hard to steal something that doesn't exist. Bootlegs are stolen property... John

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