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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/29/2008 10:33:53 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 763
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
By your definition Iraq is a lost cause anyway since you have no belief that they are remotely capable of doing anything on their own.
I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. No where have I made the statement that Iraq is not capable of doing anything on their own.
Also, your analogy of the Iraq war to social government programs are again unfair for I have never made such a comparison.
My point in the definition I gave was to answer the question on how pulling out would/could be considered quitting. Sure Barack wants a phased out withdrawal but there are several problems with that plan:
1-He wants to start withdrawing troops immediately without condition, without assessment of the situation at the time. Gen. Petraeus and other senior advisers have stated time and time again that this would be detrimental. I will take their opinion over yours any day.
2-Publicly announcing our plan and our dates of withdrawal is foolhardy. You never, ever let your enemies know what your plan is either for attack or for withdrawal, unless the withdrawal is based on a cease fire treaty. What if we had told Germany the exact date we would enter the war, or Japan that we were planning on dropping a bomb on them? When we give everyone our timeline for leaving all that does is allow them to bide their time until we are gone and save their troops for the future when there is less resistance.
I don't believe we need to stay in Iraq forever and I don't believe that anyone does. You can take McCain's comment of 100 years out of context all you want.
What the liberals and the liberal media refuse to admit is that the surge is working, the Iraqi troops are becoming more involved and more efficient and their government is showing signs of improvement as well.
And as to your "civil war" comment, well even the left has given up that analogy, that mantra if you will months ago. Everyone knows that it is more than a civil war, Iran is supplying arms to help kill our troops, al Qaeda is training in other countries such as Syria, Iran and Pakistan for fighting in Iraq. So no, this is not a "civil war".
The people who have made it their career and have been trained for decades in this field and know more about it than you, me and everyone on this board put together have all made it clear that pulling out of Iraq at this point in time would be disastrous and almost everything we have accomplished would be lost and our men would have died in vain. This is exactly why a majority of our troops want to stay and accomplish what we set out to do.
Just because you know a few soldiers who are not happy with the way things are going does not make you and expert. Just because I can search the internet, read the paper or listen to the news does not make me an expert. Due to this fact the only logical, sensible, and morally correct thing to do is to defer to the people who are experts.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 7:35:23 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1074
Joined: 4/20/2005
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inthysite,
I don't know if the aforementioned was directed at me or not. If it was - let's agree to disagree. I believe we should pull out of Iraq, that they are in a civil war, I believe I have good reasons for thinking so, and I am not alone in this belief.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 2:12:47 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 728
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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Some of the most effective wars in history were fought and won with no or a minimal committment of ground forces by the winning side.
For example, it was the Soviet Union and Communist China that used Vietnam to beat the U.S. by funneling military aid and other resources to that impovershed country or they would have never been able to survive. We defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by giving them aid, and eventually, that war was the beginning of the end for the "evil empire".
Withdrawing ground forces from Iraq does not mean the country immediately diverts back to a dictatorship and a haven for terrorists as some have predicted. True, there will still be corruption and pockets of resistance as is true in most developing nations, but our influence is now carved in granite there, and our intelligence capabilities in that region have grown and are well established. Regarding the so-called civil war that some claim is inevitable, we have the resources to determine it's outcome, as no other country, including Iran, has, without committing our own troops.
- Julius
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 5:37:26 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
Some of the most effective wars in history were fought and won with no or a minimal committment of ground forces by the winning side.
For example, it was the Soviet Union and Communist China that used Vietnam to beat the U.S. by funneling military aid and other resources to that impovershed country or they would have never been able to survive. We defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by giving them aid, and eventually, that war was the beginning of the end for the "evil empire".
Withdrawing ground forces from Iraq does not mean the country immediately diverts back to a dictatorship and a haven for terrorists as some have predicted. True, there will still be corruption and pockets of resistance as is true in most developing nations, but our influence is now carved in granite there, and our intelligence capabilities in that region have grown and are well established. Regarding the so-called civil war that some claim is inevitable, we have the resources to determine it's outcome, as no other country, including Iran, has, without committing our own troops.
- Julius
Americans and South Vietnamese killed hundreds of thousands of Communist ground forces. That's not minimal. Then when the US abandoned their allies, hundreds of thousands of them were killed or died in prison camps.
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 7:29:19 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1074
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
inthysite,
I don't know if the aforementioned was directed at me or not.
The first couple of paragraphs were directed more at rlj and correcting his statements about what I was saying or what my beliefs were/are.
The rest is pretty much just a declaration of my beliefs and were directed at no one specific person.
quote:
If it was - let's agree to disagree.
NO! You must come over to my side of the argument or I will continue to berate you and everyone who disagrees with me for I am always right!  Just kidding of course. We all have our beliefs and I don't expect to convince anyone of mine. While I haven't been posting on CW as long as some I have been here long enough to know how this works, I have yet to see anyone change their position or their beliefs, so I treat this as a place to come to express my views and participate in a debate.
I try not to offend anyone but at times I may come across a little strong when I firmly believe in the subject I am discussing. I think at times we all take things a little too serious and could stand to just relax a little, after all this world is not our home.
God Bless;
Allen
Agree and very well said - I wish that some whom I debated with had as much class as you. You did not offend me at all.
God is well above politics - the candidate that is chosen to lead our country will be chosen for a reason, according to His plan.
Peace and God bless,
PS And, I neglected to say that I hope that I did not offend you - I am passionate about politics, as you are.
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 5/30/2008 7:59:46 PM >
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 8:29:16 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1074
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
Agree and very well said - I wish that some whom I debated with had as much class as you. You did not offend me at all.
God is well above politics - the candidate that is chosen to lead our country will be chosen for a reason, according to His plan.
Peace and God bless,
PS And, I neglected to say that I hope that I did not offend you - I am passionate about politics, as you are.
Thank you for your kind words and no you have not offended me.
Also I agree, when McCain wins it will be according to God's plan
Well, I'm actually undecided myself, and am not registered with any party, so I can laugh as well !)
Take care, Peace and God bless,
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 5/30/2008 8:36:28 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 728
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
Some of the most effective wars in history were fought and won with no or a minimal committment of ground forces by the winning side.
For example, it was the Soviet Union and Communist China that used Vietnam to beat the U.S. by funneling military aid and other resources to that impovershed country or they would have never been able to survive. We defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by giving them aid, and eventually, that war was the beginning of the end for the "evil empire".
Withdrawing ground forces from Iraq does not mean the country immediately diverts back to a dictatorship and a haven for terrorists as some have predicted. True, there will still be corruption and pockets of resistance as is true in most developing nations, but our influence is now carved in granite there, and our intelligence capabilities in that region have grown and are well established. Regarding the so-called civil war that some claim is inevitable, we have the resources to determine it's outcome, as no other country, including Iran, has, without committing our own troops.
- Julius
Americans and South Vietnamese killed hundreds of thousands of Communist ground forces. That's not minimal. Then when the US abandoned their allies, hundreds of thousands of them were killed or died in prison camps.
That may be true but it's also irrelevant to my argument. North Vietnam would not have been able to last six months, let alone over 10 years without extensive aid from the Soviet Union and Communist China.
- Julius
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 6/1/2008 7:38:22 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1054
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Some of the most effective wars in history were fought and won with no or a minimal committment of ground forces by the winning side.
For example, it was the Soviet Union and Communist China that used Vietnam to beat the U.S. by funneling military aid and other resources to that impovershed country or they would have never been able to survive. We defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by giving them aid, and eventually, that war was the beginning of the end for the "evil empire".
Yes, it was one of the lessons the US took from Viet Nam--it's better to use proxies than inserting our own troops on foreign soil...
...that is until the current Administration foolishly ignored history and invaded Iraq.
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RE: "Fear and Smear" is back.... - 6/1/2008 8:15:37 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1981
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
North Vietnam would not have been able to last six months, let alone over 10 years without extensive aid from the Soviet Union and Communist China.
I can't seem to find much if anything about Russian support of North Vietnam but there is plenty about how China and Russia almost went to war in 1969.
quote:
...that is until the current Administration foolishly ignored history...
I find it rather ironic that we refused to allow the unification vote to proceed in Vietnam because they would clearly have been democratically united under Ho Chi Minh's communist rule. Fast forward to the present and we have an administration that seems to have no problem with putting democratically elected or supporting elections that put Islamic governments in power - Iraq's, Afghanistan's and Hamas. Would Hamas have power if not for US support of elections there?
At the end of the day the people of Vietnam were refused a chance to vote because we refused to allow them to unify under a government that we didn't recognize.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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