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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:30:35 PM
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P31W
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Give me a NC mandate to give to God my first and best.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:44:48 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Give me a NC mandate to give to God my first and best.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you won't find in my writings that we not should obey the tithe just because the command is not written in the NC.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:58:49 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Give me a NC mandate to give to God my first and best.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you won't find in my writings that we not should obey the tithe just because the command is not written in the NC.
Oh by the way, through your digging of what i've written, just in case i've mentioned that tithing isn't commanded in the NC, would just be for the purpose of stating a fact, not to prove that's why i don't believe in tithing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 3:00:36 PM
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P31W
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Just as I figured...you can't or won't answer my simple question. So I will answer it for you. THERE IS NO NC MANDATE FOR WHAT YOU SAID YOU TEACH.
Now back to a "pre" law tithe. You said below.
quote:
We already know that Abraham had a close relationship with God, and one could speculate that Melchizedek might not have known Jehovah in the intimate way that Abraham knew the most high God. Abraham is the only one in this passage to mention God by his name "Jehovah". Melchizedek very well may have had an intimate relationship with God, regardless of what he calls God by name, after all, he knew Abraham and blessed him. But, we can speculate in this passage how he also might not have had an intimate relationship with Jehovah. By no means is there absolute proof of either matter.
I on the other hand know for a FACT that Abraham recognized Melchizedek as his spiritural superior. How do I know this as fact? I turn to God's word.
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people--that is, their brothers--even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. 6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
Melchizedek was a monotheist because he calls God El Elyon, which means "the most God God" or "the God who is really God."
Melchizedek understands that El Elyon is the Creator of heaven and earth and is who delivered Abraham's enemies into his hands . (creats and has the abiltiy to control things here on earth)
Melchizedek functions as a mediator between El Elyon and man.
Melchizedek recognizes that Abraham belongs to El Elyon and has a special relationship with him.
We also know for a FACT that before God took him out of Ur Abraham and his fathers before him were involved in pagan worship. We don't have any indication that Melchizedek was ever involved in such as that.
Jos 24:2
Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River and worshiped other gods.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 3:32:31 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 7:24:40 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Give me a NC mandate to give to God my first and best.
THERE IS NO NC MANDATE FOR WHAT YOU SAID YOU TEACH.
Maybe this is more plainly explained for you here. The absence of the tithing mandate in the NC doesn't make me anti tithe, so why should the absence of the first fruit principle make me anti first fruits?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2008 8:15:55 AM
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P31W
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Hum, no reply about your incorrect teaching/doctrine concerning Melchizedek??? That's odd. I would think you would want to correct your false teaching or at least type to find some way to support why you teach what you do.
Here is some more things that you teach that are incorrect or false.
"So, Could Melchizedek have been Jesus Christ, or was he just a man?
Jesus doesn't claim the throne over the "city of peace" until the prophecies of revelation comes to pass. So we know that Jesus does not sit on any throne on earth before this time.
. Let's get back to Melchizedek for now. I mean, he was a king, right? He probably was a well known person that was popularly voted into or handed that position to him from the previous king. He also could have been the very first man in that city to claim that position. Who knows? But we do know that because he was known by other kings, Melchizedek lived on the earth for a significant amount of time. While spending his time here on earth, did Melchizedek make disciples, heal the sick, or preach the gospel? How about when he was anointed king, did he ride into town on a donkey, while they sang praises and threw palm branches down in his path? No, because all of these activities were signs of the coming Messiah. Melchizedek was not Jesus, and if he were, than the hope of the coming messiah would have been tarnished by the pre-existence of Jesus in the form of Melchizedek. There is no proof of the Son of God inhabiting the earth before the virgin birth. "
Some scholars believe Melcizedek may have been a Christophany. If you want to "address" that teaching why don't you do so rather than address what is false about what some people believe? It is because you don't really understand what others believe therefore you can't discuss it?
BTW Melcizedek's name means "King of Righteousness" "King of Peace" does that not ring a bell for you concerning Christ?
Then you go on to teach incorrectly:
The biggest phrase that I was stuck on is the mention of Melchizedek having no end of life. It can be interpreted that either he didn't die or they have no record of his death. I could understand why they lost his birth records, maybe as an abandoned orphan who was left at a strangers doorstep. But what I can't understand is why they would not have any record 'of his death, or why he didn't die. The writer of Hebrews is saying that there is no record of Melchizedek's death or of his life in the Torah, which was the only genealogical records that Israel relied on prior to Moses. So, on one hand, Even though we have no recorded proof, we can safely say that being a mortal man, Melchizedek died. On the other hand Jesus Christ has the records written that he continually lives. In essence because Melchizedek's life does not record an ending, he figuratively still lives, but Jesus has been seen and recorded as alive"
The bible itself CLEARLY contradicts both sentences I have in bold letters. Maybe it would be better if you simply allowed scripture speak for itself and you not try to inject or interpet it for others.
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What you are in effect doing with your false ideas concerning Melchizedek is belittling the priesthood of Christ. I know you don't realize this but you are. Jews across the ages know what the author of Hebrews is teaching about Melchizedek's priesthood therefore th priesthood of Jesus and the Levitical priesthood. You however have no clue.
Abraham recognized that a Priesthood existed before the law of Moses was ever given. A priesthood that is "higher" in order than the one of the Levites. Abraham tithed to that priesthood. The priesthood that never dies. The priesthood that Jesus has is like that of Melchizedek that was made on an "oath" from God not from some birth record.
2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die - that would be the levitical priesthood
but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.- this is talking about Melchizedek
-------------
I do want to thank you for telling people to ask tithers about Melchizedek because when they do it's so very easy to show them how what you teach is false and what scripture has to say about the him.
Oh your site is just too wild!!!
Here is something else false you are teaching and it goes hand in hand with your belittling the priesthood of Christ.
The Bible does not say whether Abraham was required to give a tithe or not. All we can do is study accounts of recorded history in another book and conclude Abraham was required to tithe according to pagan law
Your misunderstanding of scripture amazes me.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/18/2008 9:06:17 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2008 9:26:58 AM
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P31W
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OK so I have wasted enough of my time trying to review your teachings of scripture. This one takes the cake.
There was no temple and as we will study below, Melchizedek very well may have worshipped a pagan god
Yes Melchizedek was a pagan priest and Jesus priesthood is of (like) that order. The levitical priesthood gave tithes to a pagan priest. 
Again you have defamed the priesthood of Christ and don't have a clue that you are doing that.
many people think that Melchizedek was God incarnate,
pre-incarnate Christ is what some people/scholars believe.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/18/2008 9:33:30 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 9:45:40 AM
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zzz333
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My church is running an orphnage, is it appropriate to allocate part of my tithe to the orphanage , ie must we allocate 100% of tithe to church or can we allocate part of the tithe for other christian organisation?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 9:52:06 AM
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P31W
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How much of the church budget is currently allocated for the running of the orphanage? You don't want to starve your church to the point they must stop doing things such as running orphanages.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 10:01:26 AM
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peace77
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quote:
My church is running an orphanage, is it appropriate to allocate part of my tithe to the orphanage , ie must we allocate 100% of tithe to church or can we allocate part of the tithe for other christian organisation?
Does the orphanage have enough funds to meet the basic needs of the children?
If the children are going hungry or if there is no money for soap, I would give part of my tithe to the orphanage.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 10:41:51 AM
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LBolt
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P31W, you are very blunt! I've had the chance of reading the "Scroll of Yahsher" or Jasher, although it is not in the inspired texts it is referred to in Joshua, Kings and a couple other places. It reveals that Shem was Melchizedek and that he knew YHWH's Torah and taught it. At least that what it says.
I agree wholeheartedly to what you are teaching. I doubt very seriously that Avraham would pay tithes to a pagan king! When we tithe today, it is a testimony that Jesus is alive today and is ministering in His Priestly role. But our non-tithe brethren don't understand this.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 11:22:08 AM
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P31W
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Yes I am blunt.
quote:
It reveals that Shem was Melchizedek
That is called the "Jewish or Hebrew Tradition". If however you begin to look a little deeper into this teaching you will discover that it was not taught until AFTER the book of Hebrews was written. There are no historical records to prove that to be true.
It is believed that this was what the Jews did in rebuttle to the idea that a priesthood could be higher and greater than the Levitical one.
What God is teachings us and the Jews in particular in the passage in Hebrews concerning Abraham and the tithe is that a priesthood existed BEFORE the levitical priesthood and it was of a higher order than the levitical priesthood. Abraham recognized this priesthood was also for ALL people not just the Jews and Abraham in recognition of this greater pre-existing priesthood that is for all men presented this High Priest with a tithe.
The term "Jehovah" translated "Lord" in our bibles is the name of God of the Covenant used by Abraham and the Isrealites to come. The name used for God by Melchizedek was a much broader term that carries with it the idea that God is God of "all people" for "all times" - not just the Jews.
For the Jew in those days to believe that Abraham tithed to and recieved a blessing from one of his ancestors (Shem) would be "OK" in their book. But the idea that Abraham recognized another priesthood greater than the Jewish one was a NO NO!!! They could not stand the idea!!!!
We must also remember no matter what people may say they have discovered God tells us that there is no record of Melchizedek's geneology. Because God cannot lie or be wrong such a document cannot exist.
quote:
When we tithe today, it is a testimony that Jesus is alive today and is ministering in His Priestly role. But our non-tithe brethren don't understand this.
I agree.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/19/2008 11:45:34 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 12:13:47 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
When we tithe today, it is a testimony that Jesus is alive today and is ministering in His Priestly role.
You say this as if we are to obey tithing in commemoration of Jesus' priesthood, just as we obey the Lords table to commemorate his death.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 2:10:15 PM
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LBolt
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P31W,
The letter "J" is a 500 year old letter. Jehovah would be an inaccurate rendition. YHWH, YAHWEH, YeHoVaH, YeHoWaH or YAH would probably be more accurate.
quote:
You say this as if we are to obey tithing in commemoration of Jesus' priesthood, just as we obey the Lords table to commemorate his death.
We acknowledge and adhere to His eternal Priesthood. You can try to explain this away if you want to, but tithing is Biblical. Period.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 2:28:53 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
We acknowledge and adhere to His eternal Priesthood. You can try to explain this away if you want to, but tithing is Biblical. Period.
Yeah i know we should acknowledge and adhere to his eternal priesthood, but tithing has never been an ordinance to commemorate that fact.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 12:53:07 AM
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zzz333
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the orphanage is self funded. so generally is our tithe suppose to channel to church or to other christian organisation?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 9:12:31 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1930
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quote:
P31W,
The letter "J" is a 500 year old letter. Jehovah would be an inaccurate rendition. YHWH, YAHWEH, YeHoVaH, YeHoWaH or YAH would probably be more accurate.
I agree!
quote:
We acknowledge and adhere to His eternal Priesthood. You can try to explain this away if you want to, but tithing is Biblical. Period.
I agree again. I have been in tithing debates for several years now. Hit and miss. To date I have only found one person who was able to articulate our view properly then debate against it. Even then that person had to admit that tithing is biblical. Most people either can't state our case therefore argue against things we don't even teach or believe. It is a waste of time. You are wise to state your case then back off.  Nine times of our ten what I do is try to teach scripture "properly" in these debates (I have been disappointed in the amount of biblical illiteracy on this thread) or try to stomp out false ideas about what we do teach and believe.
I have also been amazed over the years at the number of people who are willing to allow what they know is false according to scripture to "stand" if the person who post false teachings is "on their side" so to speak. For me that is very telling.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/20/2008 10:10:19 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 10:25:14 AM
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peace77
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quote:
the orphanage is self funded. so generally is our tithe suppose to channel to church or to other christian organisation?
If the orphanage is self-funded, then give your tithe to your church.
Peace,
Anne
_____________________________
I GoodSearch for Deaf Missions.
Raise money for your favorite charity or school just by searching the Internet or shopping online with GoodSearch - www.goodsearch.com
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/22/2008 7:39:15 AM
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conrack50
Posts: 519
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From: 200 N. Bryan Ave. Shawnee, Ok 74801
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The definition of tithe from Webster's Dictionary:
1.Sometimes, tithes. the tenth part of agricultural produce or personal income set apart as an offering to God or for works of mercy, or the same amount regarded as an obligation or tax for the support of the church, priesthood, or the like.
2.any tax, levy, or the like, esp. of one-tenth.
3.a tenth part or any indefinitely small part of anything.–verb (used with object)
4.to give or pay a tithe or tenth of (produce, money, etc.).
5.to give or pay tithes on (crops, income, etc.).
6.to exact a tithe from (a person, community, parish, etc.).
7.to levy a tithe on (crops, income, etc.).
–verb (used without object)
8.to give or pay a tithe.
I was taught from childhood that you can give your time and that's described as a tithe(see example 3 above).
There have been many times I have given my time, my clothing, my food or anything else when there wasn't money.
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The BEST way to tithe. - 3/22/2008 3:11:16 PM
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oldmethuselah
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With few exceptions, those who are struggling with the tithe concept are from the "upper strata" in terms of overall income.
The following MAY be extremely helpful to those who struggle in this manner...
One church goer had been quite successful in tithing when he made $20,000 per year...
as the Lord blessed, he came to the place he was making $100,000 a year...
He went to the pastor with a problem...
"Now that I am making $100,000 per year, I am finding it difficult to keep to my original plan of tithing...can you help me with this?"
"Certainly", said the pastor (who was obviously more concerned with the welfare of his flock than the potential income he might receive from this rich man)
"Lord, please return my dear brother to the $20,000 a year level so that he may, once again, joyfully tithe to you!"
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RE: The BEST way to tithe. - 3/26/2008 9:16:47 AM
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P31W
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http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers
copy from the article
Q. Monetary giving doesn’t tell us much about total charity, does it? People who don’t give money probably tend to give in other ways instead, right?
A. Wrong. First of all, there is a bright line between people who give and people who don’t give. People who do give time and money tend to give a lot of it. According to the Center on Philanthropy, the percentage of givers donating less than $50 to charity in 2000 was the same as the percentage giving more than $5,000. Similarly, the same percentage of people who only volunteered once volunteered on 36 or more occasions in 2000.
Second, people who give away their time and money to established charities are far more likely than non-givers to act generously in informal ways as well. For example, one nationwide survey from 2002 tells us that monetary donors are nearly three times as likely as non-donors to give money informally to friends and strangers. People who give to charity at least once per year are twice as likely to donate blood as people who don’t give money. They are also significantly more likely to give food or money to a homeless person, or to give up their seat to someone on a bus.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/26/2008 9:40:43 AM >
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RE: The BEST way to tithe. - 3/26/2008 5:08:21 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers
copy from the article
Q. Monetary giving doesn’t tell us much about total charity, does it? People who don’t give money probably tend to give in other ways instead, right?
A. Wrong....
I am reminded of Jesus’ words, “woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God...”.
There’s also this account:
Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
There are folks who are generous and giving in many other ways than merely giving cash.
There are those too (if we truly believe what Jesus said) who feel that tithing is indicative of an obedient and/or generous spirit, and yet who are in severe error.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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