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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 6:04:09 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
The old testament has a perfect example of how Spirit-led people should give to support local ministry. In Exodus 35 & 36, Israel was not under the tithing law, but yet the tabernacle ministry had begun. Read Exodus 35 & 36 to see how local ministry operated through freewill offerings, and the leading of the Spirit of God.
So the people of Israel followed all of the LORD's instructions to Moses. 43 Moses inspected all their work and blessed them because it had been done as the LORD had commanded him.
What did the LORD command concerning giving?
Exodus 35:4-5
And Moses spoke to all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, “This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying: ‘Take from among you an offering to the Lord. Whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as an offering to the Lord
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Don't you give to your local church so they can disburse it to people outside?
No
I'm sure you use it all for yourselves then.
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Wasn't this the point of tithes in the old testament. Tithes were for the fatherless, widow, and STRANGER?
Only the third year tithe was to go to the poor within a person's area. (gates) That would be about 3.33% per year for the truly poor. The first two tithes that were yearly were to go for the support the Levites and Priest.
yeah, and the point of tithing was still to take care of the fatherless, widow, and stranger? What are you arguing?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 8:15:43 PM
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Josiah_7
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notmycity I agree with you 100 % becauase like the berean jews I do not only accept your words but i have eagerly examined the scriptures and see that your perception weighs accordingly
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 10:11:10 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Maybe your question was rhetorical.
It was-- sorry for not being clear.
I was underscoring what you said with a general challenge to all who support the modern tithing doctrine:
Where is it in the bible?
Answer: nowhere
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 11:06:49 AM
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LBolt
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Hey sunofone, I read this yesterday and thought about you, this is in regards to Torah (TaNaKH) being read in the synagogues every Sabbath, Acts 13:13-15, the verses that proceed dealt with what Paul exhortation of those verses. Of course Sha'ul preached Christ because Christ was the very embodiment and fulfillment of the TaNaKH. Christ told the pharisees who did not believe He was the Messiah that if didn't believe Moses' words how could they believe His. This is soo true today!!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:14:59 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey sunofone, I read this yesterday and thought about you, this is in regards to Torah (TaNaKH) being read in the synagogues every Sabbath, Acts 13:13-15, the verses that proceed dealt with what Paul exhortation of those verses. Of course Sha'ul preached Christ because Christ was the very embodiment and fulfillment of the TaNaKH. Christ told the pharisees who did not believe He was the Messiah that if didn't believe Moses' words how could they believe His. This is soo true today!!
I believe the words of Moses,and I believe the witness of Abraham.I most certainly believe the word who is Jesus.I believe something concerning tithing,that I've yet to express on an open forum,as everything is not for everybody.
It's enough for me right now to know that their is not much harm in those who feel they must/have to tithe in order to please/honor God.I've in most recent days been called to honor God in my finances as well.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:13:33 AM
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LBolt
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Sunofone, I'm reading scholarly argument for and against tithing, so I haven't closed the book on this thing yet!! LOL Both sides present complelling arguments within the scholarly community.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:18:33 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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if you work in an office you make a salary plus benefits. the benefits have a dollar amount of its worth. you are really receiving these benefits that the company pays for for you.
so if you pay your tithe on your gross, then is it appropriate to also pay on the gross pay plus the worth of the benefits?
its a thought that could be considred first fruits, though you dont see those benefits in money, but it is worth money that you would not have had to pay.
so what say you about tithing on that? (above your gross due to benefits that have a worth)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 6:38:26 PM
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naomigo
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i believe that it all comes from the heart.god knows what we can and cant do. we all can do some part in tithes in some way or matter dont have to be money.even tho. this is what our churches count on to live and pay there bills...[give unto others and it shall be given back 100 fold]...
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 9:45:53 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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i started to pay tithes this january. it was hard to make the decision to pay that since it seemed like a big chunk of money to part with, especially because i have a Budget that i stick to and i was going to pay down my bills by a certain time, well the only thing is it will take a bit longer, but nevertheless, I am paying down my bills (slowly) and paying the tithe.
i just have the one concern that i heard someone suggest that its not enough to just pay on my gross salary, but also the 10% of the benefits package that I receive.. which when i totalled it, equals about $100 more a month which im on the fence about because now that would really wipe me out, and im not really sure i need to, plus, i would not be a cheerful giver,, so for now thats on hold. but i am cheerfully doing the 10%. I dont know if i would be giving that extra $100 by the letter of the law since i now cant do it by the spirit of the law and I think perhaps (this is just my guess) that the Lord would rather me give less and be cheerful about it than to give that extra from my benefits what they are worth but in my head right now it would be begrudginly.
so there i sit until the Lord tells me what to do, since i am not yet fully convinced in myself that i need to go to that extentl it might be legalistic in that sense. if i had it thought i would give it. right now it will take 3 more years to pay down all my bills.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 1:29:46 AM
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Annie64
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I don't think it's necessary to tithe your benefits package. The benefits package doesn't necessarily come with spendable money so tithing it's value in money could create a hardship. And I think it would actually be a little legalistic. It would be hard to be a cheerful giver when you feel like you have to give more than you are truly able. I had an idea, though, as I was typing this, that I haven't thought of before, much less done, so it isn't really thought out. What about giving God one of your vacation days to the Lord? Taking that day to volunteer or something of that nature?
I believe the Lord will bless you for honoring Him in this way, especially in being willing to take longer to pay down your bills. That's making a real sacrifice for Him, and I believe He will repay you.
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ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 1:18:23 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Annie64
I don't think it's necessary to tithe your benefits package. The benefits package doesn't necessarily come with spendable money so tithing it's value in money could create a hardship. And I think it would actually be a little legalistic. It would be hard to be a cheerful giver when you feel like you have to give more than you are truly able. I had an idea, though, as I was typing this, that I haven't thought of before, much less done, so it isn't really thought out. What about giving God one of your vacation days to the Lord? Taking that day to volunteer or something of that nature?
I believe the Lord will bless you for honoring Him in this way, especially in being willing to take longer to pay down your bills. That's making a real sacrifice for Him, and I believe He will repay you.
Hi - thanks for that idea - actually this happened last month, i gave a vacation day up to the Lord.. tithing MIGHT be able to come out of things other than money, since tithes in the Old Tetament were sometimes spices and crops. I mean if i were convinced it was owed to the Lord, no problem, but im stuck on the fence. I know right now, if I gave "just in case", I would feel inside grumbling.. it wouild be a hardship. And i know that since I would be grumbling and fretting, I dont think the Lord wnats a gift like that. A tithe is an offering to the Lord, I do feel fine giving the tithe that i am giving now.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:02:16 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
...since tithes in the Old Tetament were sometimes spices and crops.
Actually they were ALWAYS spices, crops or the spoils of war. OT tithes were NEVER money
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:19:21 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Actually they were ALWAYS spices, crops or the spoils of war. OT tithes were NEVER money
Would you say that the widow - the one praised by Jesus for giving two mites (a paltry sum but cash, nonetheless) - was starting a new tradition if money had never been given before?
Um . . . Soxfan said money wasn't accepted for the OT tithe. You can give money for other things except the tithe.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:25:32 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Actually they were ALWAYS spices, crops or the spoils of war. OT tithes were NEVER money
Would you say that the widow - the one praised by Jesus for giving two mites (a paltry sum but cash, nonetheless) - was starting a new tradition if money had never been given before?
Um . . . Soxfan said money wasn't accepted for the OT tithe. You can give money for other things except the tithe.
Why was she putting money into the treasury?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:35:20 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why was she putting money into the treasury?
here's matthew henry's commentary on mark 12:41 that will help answer that question
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/mhc/MHC41012.HTM
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:52:39 PM
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JimboFletch
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Sorry, I don't click links that has contains "apostolic" in them. I have issues with most of their theology.
But to the topic: So it's perfectly okay for us to give ten percent of our money to the church treasury as long as we don't call it a "tithe"?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 4:07:11 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Sorry, I don't click links that has contains "apostolic" in them. I have issues with most of their theology.
Well then here you go.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=mr&chapter=012
quote:
But to the topic: So it's perfectly okay for us to give ten percent of our money to the church treasury as long as we don't call it a "tithe"?
It's perfectly okay to give 10%, and it's perfectly okay to call it whatever you want.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 4:56:49 PM
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buckifn
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I've given a weeks vacation before for a missions trip and would do it again in a heartbeat. I've never really considered that a "tithe" but I guess it could be.
I would like to say this- last month I gave an extra love offering for a youth project and since then I have received back more than 1,000 fold. Yesterday I got news I am getting a pay increase and another weeks vacation. I don't ask God for things like that, but when He gives them I sure do thank Him.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 1:43:51 PM
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P31W
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Money is nothing more than an object that functions as a medium of exchange.
In OT times food was a medium of exchange or money.
quote:
Actually they were ALWAYS spices, crops or the spoils of war. OT tithes were NEVER money
Now that I think about it everthing they were to tithe and give as an offering or a sacrifice was considered to be money. Can you think of any Gift to the Lord or Sacrifice that was offered up that was not money?
Funny how this comes up over and over again. Especially with people who have been involved in this thread alot.
I will be glad when we all learn what "money" is....... a medium of exchange. Each society often decides it's own.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/6/2008 3:00:52 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:44:46 AM
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P31W
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In reply to post 2915 top of page 119
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What did the LORD command concerning giving?
Part 1: The gold came from the census tax.
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I'm sure you use it all for yourselves then.
Part 2: Your assumption is incorrect. It's use to help do the Lord's work. Only a portion goes to helping to care for the poor. The majority goes to feed the "soul" something that is of greater importance and value and had an eternal impact. Our first objective is to bring the lost to Christ. The second is to make disciples of those converts and only third do we seek to meet the physicial needs of people. That's our "priority list" so to speek. Note Jesus didn't spend most of his time trying to give people food, clothing or shelter. He was here doing the Lord's work and it was much greater than dealing with physical needs.
If people chose to give only the "average" of 2.5% of their increase to the Lord then it's the physical needs of people that we allow to slide and continue to fully fund the work that meets the spiritural needs of people. Something only the Church is doing.
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yeah, and the point of tithing was still to take care of the fatherless, widow, and stranger? What are you arguing?
Part 3: Again your assumption is incorrect. According to God in His word the purpose of the tithe is to help us "learn to revere the Lord your God always". The fast majority of the tithe went to support those whom God had set aside to do his work. These were not widows, fatherless or strangers.
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Concerning the spirit filled giving passage you referred to. Has your pastor asked you to "stop giving"? I am just wondering if the passage you point to as the proper way to give is something you are applying to your life and your pastor has asked you to stop giving?
Was ANY of that money collected use to feed the poor?
What was it "all" used for?
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/7/2008 9:16:00 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:15:30 AM
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jbbaab44
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I guess the Lord's work would never get done if we expelled tithing and relied on freewill, Spirit-led giving.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:23:04 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I guess the Lord's work would never get done if we expelled tithing and relied on freewill, Spirit-led giving.
Judging from the missed budgets of a lot of churches, you might have a point. But, then, the NT mentions of freewill giving only dealt with special offerings for struggling churches in another country undergoing persecution.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:36:46 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Judging from the missed budgets of a lot of churches, you might have a point. But, then, the NT mentions of freewill giving only dealt with special offerings for struggling churches in another country undergoing persecution.
Why does giving to another country define the restrictions of freewill giving today? In the NT, jew and gentile are considered one body with many members. We are unified under Christ's blood. Our surplus supplies the needs of the whole body, not just our own member/part.
In the OT, spiritual giving dealt with one nation, and one tongue. But in the NT, fellowship and communion mean, "all in common": my money is yours, your pain is mine - my pain is yours. The unity of believers stretch across all nations and tongues and is not inward focused.
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