RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 10:16:12 AM)

OOOPS!

I deleted my prior response after reading your entire earlier reponse and realizing that you knew where my tag line came from.

It leaves your reposnse to my response dangling. I'm sorry about that.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 10:19:04 AM)

quote:

It leaves your reposnse to my response dangling. I'm sorry about that.


OH NO a Dangling Post!!!![8D]



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 3:40:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Why is it talking you so long to respond. The question is an easy one? I see that you logged on and are reading this thread?

You are a pistol aren't you[;)]I sometimes leave the forum to work and make money for my family,and while doing so leave the page up until I get back.You can't really know if I'm currently viewing the forum just because you see me logged into the site.

I have to much respect for you,to ignore you.I appreciate your feedback and look forward to your responses.Having said that,I apologize if I have repeatedly made negative comments regarding my Church.It's something I do in relative anonymity,here on the forum.

Sometimes I'm just venting,other times I'm checking myself against the greater church community to see if it's me or not that has the problem.

I happen to love my Church and my Pastor.I thank God for them always.I am frustrated with my membership there at the same time,because I don't see eye to eye with them on some issues,namely the tithes.

My Pastor & I discussed my issue with tithes when I first decided to join there,and basically agreed to disagree and keep moving.I made it clear to him that I would not allow money to come between us.

I have no problem giving money,whether 10% or more.I simply have a problem being told that God is requiring me to do something that he's not.I especially have a problem being lumped in and called a God robber and cursed.

I know that when preachers like my Pastor speak these things they are merely referring to What God said,and that it is not personal,or an attack of me.

I just don't like it.I would not speak in derogatory terms about those who practice tithing,but I understand.

As for the question you asked concerning my Church and outreach,I believe that my Church is actively involved in the community,I know that they offer some very good programs for the members as well.

While my Pastor teeters on the WOF style of preaching,I don't think that he is a money whore.I feel comfortable giving to my Church and trust that the money is put to good use.

Considering the fact that the expenses of my Church is so great, whatever I give is simply a drop in the bucket.We've been there a year now and I doubt our giving has exceeded $10,000.00

Which is just slightly above 15% of our total income for that year.Considering I spent about Three months on std for a knee replacement surgery and then nearly six months on unemployment.

I believe the monthly mortgage alone on my Church is $25,000.00,so I'm small potatoes when it comes to giving.

It's not about the money for me.It's about getting it right.Truth be told if tithing represented 1% instead of 10% I believe the argument for tithing would suddenly be reversed.

The focus no doubt would then be on how much we should give above the tithe.I believe it's only because most Christians struggle in giving that tithing is preached and enforced as much as it is.

There is hypocrisy to be found on both sides of this debate for sure.[:D]



jen78 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 4:19:18 PM)

It is not a misunderstanding yet a lack of faith & obedience! A lack of faith and trust in the Lord saying that if you give to God first he will not provide or take care of you! Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor God consistanly with your fist fruits THE BEST! Malacai 3:8 one of the only places to hear God say "test me in this." "But you ask, how do we rob God?" in tithes and offerings. Also Abraham was not under Mosaic law when he tithed Gen 28:22. If you really read up on it you will find the diff. between tithes and offerings. Tithe is your first fruits your first 10% given to God your church not some charity of your choosing. Yet to help the church wich is the body of Christ! An offering is seperate from a tithe. In everything you do, do it for the glory of God. When you make up food boxes for the needy include a Jesus tract that it may be given in Jesus name. Give a homeless man on the street corner a bottle of water with a Jesus tract. In the end its not what your pastor said or someone in a chat forum it is what is found in the BIBLE "read it for your self!!!!!"



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2008 8:59:51 AM)

Strider33,

I just wanted to thank your for entering into this thread. Even when I "bit your head off".

I want to share with you what "you" have been the encourager for and how many people are going to "praise God" because of your participation on this thread.

You encouraged me!!!! Your heart and the story of the Mexican's did my heart alot of good. I need to hear more from people who love God with all their heart like you do. It spurs me on to do good deeds. It opens up my creative juices and I begin to think of more ways to help bring people to the saving knowledge of our Lord.

I teach the youth currently in our chruch. This weekend we went to town and purchased school supplies for fifty children. We packaged them into individual packages during Sunday School and wrote letters to put into each child's pack. We are sending them to a Missionary who works in a college town. They take the college Christian students into some of the poorest areas of the country inorder to witness and minister to their needs.

Not only did I get a blessing from your post but it turned out my youth were blessed to do good deeds in the name of Christ. The missionary couple will be encouraged to know that we truly care for them, the college students will praise God for these "tools" of ministry and the people themselves will be breaking out in Praises to God for these gifts.

Thank you Strider22. Well done good and faithful servant. [;)]

This forum could use more posters like you.



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2008 10:54:38 AM)

quote:

You encouraged me!!!! Your heart and the story of the Mexican's did my heart alot of good. I need to hear more from people who love God with all their heart like you do. It spurs me on to do good deeds. It opens up my creative juices and I begin to think of more ways to help bring people to the saving knowledge of our Lord.


Thanks for your kind words. And thanks for sharing that my words were an encouragement. Your assessment that I love the lord with all my heart rates me higher than I rate myself. I am a deeply flawed Christian. And I am distrustful of those who claim to be unflawed Christians. (See John's epistles for more on this subject).

One area where you and I share some common ground is that 10% is only a starting place. There are some, although I haven't seen any in this thread, who get up to giving their 10% and then say, "whew! Now that that's taken care of, I can move on to other areas of my life that need fixing up." I think that misses the whole point.

I'm encouraged to continue in the thread. Thanks, and God bless!



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2008 12:20:25 PM)

quote:

One area where you and I share some common ground is that 10% is only a starting place. There are some, although I haven't seen any in this thread, who get up to giving their 10% and then say, "whew! Now that that's taken care of, I can move on to other areas of my life that need fixing up." I think that misses the whole point.
This statement seems to be a bit of a misnomer to me.That is, that giving 10% is somehow equal to tithing.Though tithing equals 10% or a tenth,the practice of tithing involves releasing back to God what is his.

The failure to do so is equal to one robbing God and in doing so being cursed.There are also stipulations as to how to properly release this tenth.It should first be a tenth of income,although some will receive produce,livestock,or gifts.I don't know of any but I'm sure their out there.

Of income one must be clear as to whether God wants 10% of your gross or your net.If you pay off your gross,you should in most cases still tithe off or your tax refund.

Then their is the whole issue of tithing from gifts,Birthdays,Christmas,special favors and blessings.That is if one received any gift for any reason they must assess a monetary value of said gift and subsequently release back to God I.E. the Church 10% of it's value.

Then theirs interest gained from dividends,and investments and such that also must be tithed failure to do so results in your being cursed,and considered a God robber.

If only it were as simple as simply choosing to give 10% of your income,gross or net.Then there is the whole obligatory,compulsory aspect of it all.Since the tenth belongs to God,it's not your choice to give,it's your obligation to release/get your hands off it.

Cheerful or otherwise,grudgingly or not just let it go and give it to the storehouse,I.E. your local Assembly,because you don't get to choose how to give it,or where to give it or even when to give it.

Now if you have a garden or raise livestock I think you're allowed to freely give the tenth to a neighbor or whoever you choose to give it to.I don't think God or your local assembly will hold it against you here. I think in these cases God may exempt you from being cursed.

Only the money must be given to the local Church without question,without fail.So that leaves us with the other 90% which is sort of yours to do with as you will,but then again not exactly.

It gets just a little bit complicated here.Since God said you Robbed me in tithes and Offerings.You have to do both,that is you first have to figure out exactly what constitutes the tithe.Gross/net,produce/livestock,gifts/interest.

Once you get that figured out you must release 10% or a tenth to your local assembly in cash,unless of course they accept checks or credit cards,or in the rare case produce/livestock.

In the case of produce/livestock again I think in most cases you're free to distribute this tenth in any manner you choose.Check your local Assembly for details.

Once you've got that sorted out and settled,now you're ready to move on to the offering,which you're free to give as much or as little as you want as long as you at least give something.

I think I have it right,but it's best to check with your local Assembly for more details.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2008 12:43:09 PM)

quote:

Your assessment that I love the lord with all my heart rates me higher than I rate myself. I am a deeply flawed Christian. And I am distrustful of those who claim to be unflawed Christians.


I agree when I think about giving "myself" that type of assessment. I don't think it's something most of us can even imagine ... I guess if we look at the Cross we can see if somewhat clear with our "comfortable surroundings". ..... Did that make sense?

Anyone you are an encourager. Thanks' for not trying to convince folks to give back to God less than our very best.



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2008 10:58:55 AM)

quote:

the practice of tithing involves releasing back to God what is his.


Is there anything that has been made that is not His?



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2008 11:07:12 AM)

Cycling back to the OP, one of the questions asked was "what is the purpose of tithing?"

As I read scripture I see at least three purposes:

1) To raise funds for the church.

2) To turn the believers into giving persons.

3) To loosen the grip of materialism on the believers.

Some people might see 2 and 3 above as a single purpose. I think they are separate.

We need to be giving people just as we need to be forgiving people. People who don't give, or can't give, are lacking something.

And there are people who are very, very giving people who nevetheless are very tightly in the grip of a materialist way of life. I find such people more among secular humanists than among believers, but they do illustrate the difference between selfishness and materialism as such.

Maybe we could discuss a little why the church needs funds. How does the church decide what to do with funds?



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2008 2:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strider33

quote:

the practice of tithing involves releasing back to God what is his.


Is there anything that has been made that is not His?

I don't want to get into a game of semantics here,I'm just trying to be clear on exactly what constitutes a tithe.The tithe is not simply giving Tenth of something,it is the releasing of what God says is rightfully his.

This is both the Old and New Testament understanding of tithes.Often times in this thread giving is used interchangeably with tithing and they are by definition two separate things.

I believe in giving.I don't believe in tithing.While my giving happens to exceed 10% I still don't consider myself a tither,as I am not mandated to release a certain% back to God,I do it freely,and yes cheerfully.

I don't believe God is looking over my shoulder with a calculator to ensure I'm not spending his money before he decides whether to bless or curse me.

This argument for me is about what is God expecting/requiring of me.I believe God expects me to give and requires me to give willingly and cheerfully.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/27/2008 8:01:17 AM)

quote:

Cycling back to the OP, one of the questions asked was "what is the purpose of tithing?"



I know of another purpose. Let me get the passage of scripture.

I did a study a couple of decades ago on "the fear of the Lord". For me that is probably the "best" study I ever did. For me it laid down the proper framework for all my other biblical studies and view of God. It was one of those life changing studies.

De 14:23
Bring this tithe to the place the LORD your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the LORD your God.

quote:

Maybe we could discuss a little why the church needs funds. How does the church decide what to do with funds?


I have noticed that people who don't tithe don't seem to be very involved in the ministries of their chruch. When one is disconnected from the ministry of the chruch they don't value the ministry or feel any need to support it much less sacrifice for it. (I am talking time, talents or money)

The ole saying is true. 20% give and do 80% of the giving and work.

There is just something about getting involved in the lives of "people" that changes your whole perception of giving.



norajm -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/2/2008 10:58:01 PM)

Hi Everyone

I may be nieve but when we tithe isn't that money or part of it used to maintain where we worship (our church)?

The building can not run by itself and there is water, heat, air(maybe), electricity, phone and etc bills. These things need to be taken care of somehow and I thought that was one of the reasons we tithe or is that considered an offering?

I know Malachi mentions first fruits does the NT actually mention giving 10% or just giving?



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/5/2008 7:58:47 AM)

quote:

I know Malachi mentions first fruits does the NT actually mention giving 10% or just giving?


Yes. In Matthew, Luke and Hebrews.

Mt 23:23
"How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law – justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things.

Lu 11:42
"But how terrible it will be for you Pharisees! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you completely forget about justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things.

Heb 7:5
Now the priests, who are descendants of Levi, are commanded in the law of Moses to collect a tithe from all the people, even though they are their own relatives.

Heb 7:9 - 10
In addition, we might even say that Levi's descendants, the ones who collect the tithe, paid a tithe to Melchizedek through their ancestor Abraham.
For although Levi wasn't born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham's loins when Melchizedek collected the tithe from him.

quote:

I may be nieve but when we tithe isn't that money or part of it used to maintain where we worship (our church)?

The building can not run by itself and there is water, heat, air(maybe), electricity, phone and etc bills. These things need to be taken care of somehow and I thought that was one of the reasons we tithe or is that considered an offering?


Tithes and offerings are to be used to accomplish the Lord's work on this earth. Not all Chruches have a building. Many Churches meet in people's homes or in public spaces that don't cost them any money.



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/5/2008 9:13:40 AM)

In Mt 23:23 and Lu 11:42 Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they ought to tithe, yes. Are you saying that the "you" in Jesus's words apply to the non Jewish Christian? How do you get that out of the words themselves?

In Heb 7, what's being discussed is not those who give the tithe, but those who collect it. This may seem like a tiny distinction, but it's an important one when you go to apply those words in today's world. There are people raising funds for various purposes, including doing God's work, who do not call what they are collecting "tithes". Does it matter whether the ones who collect call it a tithe? Are people who are not Levites allowed to collect a "tithe"?

Elsewhere in Heb 7:12 it says:

quote:

For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.


The message of Hebrews 7 is to tell the believers that Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchisedek as distinct from after the order of Levi. The followers of Jesus are therefore under different burdens than the followers of the Levitical priesthood were under. This raises at least the possibility that the "10% minimum" was not an eternal principle but a provision for the covenant as it existed when the Levitical priesthood was set up.




In my own church, "tithes and offerings" are all put in the same box, and not accounted for separately. Is it anybody's business, other than God's, which contributions were given as "tithes" and which as "offerings"? Should it affect the way the church budgets its funds?



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/5/2008 3:06:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strider33

In Mt 23:23 and Lu 11:42 Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they ought to tithe, yes. Are you saying that the "you" in Jesus's words apply to the non Jewish Christian?...

Are you saying that as a non-Jewish Christian, we ought to cease practicing justice and love of God? I mean if part of it has no application then none if does.



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/5/2008 7:20:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strider33

In Mt 23:23 and Lu 11:42 Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they ought to tithe, yes. Are you saying that the "you" in Jesus's words apply to the non Jewish Christian?...

Are you saying that as a non-Jewish Christian, we ought to cease practicing justice and love of God? I mean if part of it has no application then none if does.

Just the same Jim I would ask you what is the proper application of this verse.That we should Tithe of mint,rue,and herbs of all kinds?Clearly not.

I think that it is grossly unfair, intellectually dishonest to the point of ridiculousness,to use this scripture as proof text that Jesus supports tithing for the New Testament Church.

The argument here should remain focused on tithing,not giving.The argument can not be changed or rearranged to argue for or against standards of giving especially limits/quotas.

Is Jesus here or any New Testament writer teaching supporting Tithing for the New Testament believer? The answer is clearly and easily seen as no he is not.

To answer your question.No we are not forsake justice and love for God.

Tithing simply put is not supported as Gods means of supporting his Church in The New Testament.There is absolutely no support anywhere to be found for the hybrid tithing system now in force in the Church today.

To teach tithing is downright wrong.To condemn those who do not tithe is in my opinion a judgment issue.That is men who teach this will have to give an account to God for having done so.

Some regrettably teach this knowing full well there is no uniform practical means of practicing it.There are no scriptures which can give clear guidance as to how God would require the church to carry it out.

The Church is simply in many cases looking out for their best interest.That is how do we support and pay for bills and ministry,if we don't have firm financial commitments from the members?

This is no excuse for teaching God is in firm support of a tithing system that clearly has gone out with the rest of the laws that Israel was required to follow to the T.



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/6/2008 7:27:18 AM)

quote:

Are you saying that as a non-Jewish Christian, we ought to cease practicing justice and love of God? I mean if part of it has no application then none if does.


I'm not saying that at all. And I'm not saying that OT scripture has no application. I'm saying that the NT verses previously quoted don't make the case for requiring tithes of Christians.

Just to be clear: I'm not against a believer tithing, if that believer chooses to do so. I'm against calling believers robbers of God if their giving to the local church turns out to be 8% instead of 10%. I think that's a misapplication of the old covenenant to the new covenant.



jbbaab44 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/6/2008 9:47:03 AM)

good response sunofone.



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 9:11:00 AM)

quote:

Just the same Jim I would ask you what is the proper application of this verse.That we should Tithe of mint,rue,and herbs of all kinds?Clearly not.

If I grew mint, rue, and herbs of all kinds as a means of living, sure, I'd tithe on them, same as if I grew peanuts, cotton, or corn for a living. Since I'm not a farmer, I tithe on what the Lord has chosen to provide my family and me as a means for living.

quote:

The Church is simply in many cases looking out for their best interest.That is how do we support and pay for bills and ministry,if we don't have firm financial commitments from the members?

I can see where someone might think that. But I wasn't even a member of a church, much less a person with a self-serving interest, when I cam to the conclusion that there is a biblical principle of the tithe that preceeds the Law and is nowhere replaced with a new NT system. I was simply reading through the Bible in search of reasons that excused my returning a tenth. Couldn't find a legtimate reason so I began with a tithe and went from there.

So, I sort of resent the implication that I've been following some church's or preachers' agendas for the nearly 3 decades of returning at least 10% to the Lord of my means of living.



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 10:08:35 AM)

Once again ngiving and tithing are two completely different things.Conviction to give 10% of ones income is giving.Tithing is a structured minimum of releasing a tenth of what God has placed in your hand.

Although tithing had been done by Abraham to Melchizidek,tithing was enjoined to the law with Moses.This practice was most certainly ended with the New Testament.You will not find minimum standards of giving for the believers,nor any command to continue the tithing practice of Moses.

My whole reason for responding in this thread is to refute anyone who claims that Jesus or any New Testament writer supports tithing for the New Testament Church.

How much a person gives is not my concern.I am only concerned with those who choose to use the words of Jesus and the scripture in Malachai to support a man made hybrid tithing ritual.

This is blatantly false not supported by scripture,and causes a great deal of divisiveness in the body.Tithing is not a matter of giving but requirement.God only requires that I give,not how much I give.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 12:17:34 PM)

quote:

My whole reason for responding in this thread is to refute anyone who claims that Jesus or any New Testament writer supports tithing for the New Testament Church.


Are you suggesting that under grace God's standards have lowered and he desires "less" of a believer who has the Holy Spirit living in them than he did a poor jew living under the curse of the law?

quote:

God only requires that I give,not how much I give.


Topic faithfulness or unfaithfulness of a servant

47 The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. 48 "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.



jbbaab44 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 2:02:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
But I wasn't even a member of a church, much less a person with a self-serving interest, when I cam to the conclusion that there is a biblical principle of the tithe that preceeds the Law and is nowhere replaced with a new NT system.


What is your definition of a principle? Is it the fact that the word “tithe” is repeated so much in the bible? Is it the fact that Abraham tithed before Moses came along? Is it the fact that God gives this way?



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 2:59:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

My whole reason for responding in this thread is to refute anyone who claims that Jesus or any New Testament writer supports tithing for the New Testament Church.


Are you suggesting that under grace God's standards have lowered and he desires "less" of a believer who has the Holy Spirit living in them than he did a poor jew living under the curse of the law?

quote:

God only requires that I give,not how much I give.


Topic faithfulness or unfaithfulness of a servant

47 The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. 48 "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.

My suggestion is clear.God is not requiring a tithe be given back to him.God is not looking to make sure my giving goes beyond that of the common poor Jew or the Pharisee.God is not interested in my legalizing my giving.

This conversation gets derailed by questioning giving,as if tithing and giving are the same.They are not. tithing is a set requirement giving is not.

A believer in Christ should not ever be brought into question concerning how much they give.A true believer will be led of the spirit to give willingly and yes cheerfully.

I give liberally without the threat of punishment,or the promise of riches.I understand why many Churches teach tithing,I believe we all do.I believe it is wrong to do so.

Christians should be taught stewardship and the proper attitude to have in regards to money and giving.Tithing does not accomplish giving to God.It is established upon an understanding of the 90/10 rule.

If we as Christians really believed that 100% is Gods we could dismiss the need to stress tithing.We stress tithing because it makes good financial sense to do so.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 3:27:05 PM)

quote:

A believer in Christ should not ever be brought into question concerning how much they give


This is simply false.

quote:

If we as Christians really believed that 100% is Gods we could dismiss the need to stress tithing.We stress tithing because it makes good financial sense to do so.


This is also false. But I am sure it makes "you feel better about yourslef" to believe this.



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