|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2005 12:06:04 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ABConversation
Perhaps it was the peoples' heart of Christ that justified building. I hope their intentions were to bring glory to God, which is what we should do always.
Good intentions:
1) do not make for an obedience servant, and
2) are not a suitable substitute for obedience.
quote:
Perhaps this was an avenue to bring a disconnected generation into a comfortable environment in which a believer is now able to preach the Good News.
Well, this all is some fine sounding justifications for breaking away from the authority, commands and examples of scripture, but in the end, we're still faced with the harsh realities of God's word where it says in Prov. 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
quote:
On another note, there are some who want to praise God with the organ, others don't. Some still go to the organ playing church and there are some who unfortunately don't go at all. But if they can find a church opposite of the organ playing type and that's their flavor, so be it; as long as it stay Biblically taught.
I don't recall any mention of an organ in John 4:23, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." That sounds more like a way of life than it does about tools, instruments, methodologies, or anything else man has concocted from his own imaginations.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2005 10:37:33 AM
|
|
|
museltof
Posts: 2
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Wales, UK.
Status: offline
|
Tithing?
Its appropriation (mis-appropriation?) by just about every false teacher means that bone-fide Christian churches should now separate themselves from this practise.
You say it is biblical? But so are animal sacrifices and concubinage - but our Lord wants us to learn discernment.
Here is an article which sums up this whole thing:
The Truth about Tithing
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2005 9:09:21 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ABConversation
To justify tithing to a church, it is like paying membership dues. Once you become a member you are obligated to give 10% to the church to pay for it's inefficient ways of handling the moeny (too much overhead, like paying bills and not going to where it should go, i.e. poor). If this is the case, it is better not to become a member of church, since anything you give is from the heart.
Organized religion isn't representative of the Church. There exists no parellel between today's system of institutional "church" orgainzations and the NT texts. The Church exists in spite of institutional organizations, not because of them.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2005 9:30:18 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
Are you in a community of believers?
Every day, although not within the context of institutionalized community. Putting the terms "institutionalized" and "community" together is a bit of an oxymoron, kind of like saying "true lies".
quote:
I think God allows us to worship Him outside of organized religious establishments,
Worship, according to God's word ("spirit" and "truth"), is a way of life rather than a religious exercise.
quote:
so I am curious where you meet with other believers.
In homes mostly. Sometimes even outdoors.
quote:
You believe God led you out of one place. If that is true, then I believe He also was leading you to another. Where did you find yourself?
In the wilderness...the very place Jesus walked and lived. It's in this place that I've discovered the true depths of my faith, and the hidden sin that needed to be weeded out of my life. Religion has a tendency to give one a false sense of security in shallow spirituality. The Lord helped me to recognize that the stirrings in my soul were rumblings of a desire for something with far greater substance and depth.
quote:
Do you collect money in your group? How do you determine the amount to collect?
The need is what determines how, what, and how much is given.
quote:
And how do you determine where to spend the money?
Spending money is a completely unknown concept to us. Meeting in homes, or in parks, in the country, at the lake, or wherever else we decide to meet, we're free from communal real estate, buildings, and their inherent financial burdens, we have no such worries. We maintain the simplicity of which Christ exemplified. The desire for large numbers of people in one place isn't wrong in and of itself, but it almost always creates a sense of need for ecclesiastical fetters that generally lead to religious bondages that find themsleves to be antithetical to biblical commands and examples.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2005 12:56:54 PM
|
|
|
shouldknowbetter
Posts: 364
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
museltof,
Thanks for posting the link, it's a very good article.
heavenskeys,
quoted:
"Worship, according to God's word ("spirit" and "truth"), is a way of life rather than a religious exercise."
Amen, and I think many people miss that "way of life" and just put on thier religion Sunday morning and then take it off again Sunday night. They complain about those others working on Sunday while eating lunch at thier local restaurant after Sunday service. Talk about so and so backsliding because they were not present this morning, etc, etc, etc... All the while content with the feeling that thier tithe and attendance has justified them and/or made them right with God somehow. And the worst part is they are completely ignorant of thier own condition.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2005 5:31:01 PM
|
|
|
Psalm22
Posts: 408
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Alaska! Breaking is in progress, soon be spring!
Status: offline
|
Seconding SKB on both the thanks for the link and his comments on "way of life" (something I'm guilty of & need to work on).
_____________________________
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2005 12:55:43 AM
|
|
|
servant316
Posts: 1
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline
|
I don't see the false prophets out there stating that you shouldn't pay tithes. However, I do see them proclaiming prosperity to every Christian and all we have to do is plant a seed and God has to give us money.
If anyone would like a good bible study on tithing you can go to
http://home.att.net/~christopher316/
It is a free bible study with all of the tithes mentioned in it. The regular tithe, 2nd tithe, 3rd year tithe and also the tithe to the Aaroni Priesthood. If a person really wants answers to this teaching, then this would be a good place to start.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2005 10:32:04 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: servant316
http://home.att.net/~christopher316/
It is a free bible study with all of the tithes mentioned in it. The regular tithe, 2nd tithe, 3rd year tithe and also the tithe to the Aaroni Priesthood. If a person really wants answers to this teaching, then this would be a good place to start.
That study didn''t deal with the fact that the tithe went for the meeting of needs rather than real estate and buildings. No teaching is complete if it fails to deal with the governing examples and commands surrounding a practice. Organizational church institutions are dead wrong in what they're doing with the tithe, and have been doing for many centuries.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2005 11:02:42 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: servant316
If anyone would like a good bible study on tithing you can go to
http://home.att.net/~christopher316/
Here is a quote of question #2 from that study:
quote:
Question 2
Of all the spoils of war, what percentage does the bible state that Abram is to required to give to Melchizedek?
The answer to this question, of course, is ZERO. The text speaks of absolutely no requirement for Abraham to hand over a tenth of someone else's property. He did that freely. I wonder how many people automaticallt assumed 10% as their answer.
I've heard many a tithe teacher point at Abraham's handing over a tenth of the spoils as an example, in principal, for us today. These same people, of course, fail to carry this practice of "principal making" to its logical conclusion. The imagry of that situation with Abraham is tainted with other surrounding facts that render the accepted principal derived from that saga to be severely lacking in application.
For example:
1) It makes most people uncomfortable to be told that Abraham gave a tenth of other people's property.
2) The spoils were never his property to begin with, especially when one considers his purpose for going after those kings was to retrieve his nephew Lot.
Most assume that spoils of war always belong to the victor. This may be true if we were talking about raiding Vikings, or some other war-like culture. Instead, we're talking about Abraham, who was a man of great virtue and moral stature. Who among you, with a clear conscience, would keep another's property as your own if you found or retrieved it? And yet most would assume the worst about Abraham for the sake of supporting a principle doctrine that has no genuine roots in the text soil from which it was allegedly plucked.
No man today is of the priesthood of Melchizedek. We all, as followers of Christ Jesus, are priests unto the Most High God. So I would again have to ask why anyone would think to use Genesis 14 as their apologetic for handing over the primary portion of their goving to organized religion?
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2005 11:07:33 AM
|
|
|
4theLord
Posts: 16
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I understand that the American culture, as hard as it sounds it is build on the value of money possesion.Maybe even church is affected by the "money possesion" value.
The tithe should be given every month.It is something that pleases God.
Let me share my testimony. When I was a student I was worried that the time that God was asking was too much as a sum and I wouldn't have much money left for myself. HE kindly showed me to not worry how much the tithe, He will care alwayes for me.
I know that as long as I praise and honour Him with my tithe He provides for me .
I have never been in want of a job or money. God has taken care of me all this years and I am sure He will always be the same for me. I am thankful for everything. The reason I give my tithe is that all that I have comes from Him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2005 7:27:02 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 4theLord
I understand that the American culture, as hard as it sounds it is build on the value of money possesion.Maybe even church is affected by the "money possesion" value.
As long as we understand that there is a big difference between what you call "church", which really is just organized religion, and the Church, which is all those who follow Christ Jesus.
quote:
The tithe should be given every month.It is something that pleases God.
For those who wish to give a tenth to meet the needs of fellow believers, this is good. For those who give it to church organizations, this is not always good when the tithe is abused by paying for expenses of the institution. Giving to organized religion is not giving to God. Giving to meet the needs of your fellow believers is giving to God.
There is strong emotion that giving to church organizations is giving to God. This is not spoken in the Bible. The Bible teaches that we should first meet needs, and everything else is second. Strong emotion does not always mean that it is God who speaks. God never speaks that which is different to His Bible.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2005 8:56:39 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
HK, since it is the members of my church which decides how monies received are disbursed, we individually and corporately bear the responsibility of stewardship.
Actually, this is equally true of those organizations whose leadership makes those determinations. The congregant members can't honestly point an accusing finger at their organizational leadership when they alone are responsible for giving to what they knew was abusing it.
quote:
Each month we receive a report of how every dollar is used and anyone involved is held accountable. IOW, I'm not putting money into a black hole and trusting to the good intentions of a mysterious group.
I'd say that it's more a matter of ignorance than it is about it being mysterious.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2005 9:12:12 PM
|
|
|
double
Posts: 1
Joined: 8/13/2005
Status: offline
|
ShouldKnowBetter quote:
The {tithe} or money is just a heart test that the majority of us fail.
Jesus said that where your treasure is, there your heart is.
If your heart is in God, your resources are there.
If your time is at the lake and not the church, that's where your heart it
Ladies and gentlemen he put it straight to the point. Soooo either your going to be obey the word or do the opposite ? why stress, or question it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2005 9:40:30 PM
|
|
|
shouldknowbetter
Posts: 364
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: double
ShouldKnowBetter quote:
The {tithe} or money is just a heart test that the majority of us fail.
Jesus said that where your treasure is, there your heart is.
If your heart is in God, your resources are there.
If your time is at the lake and not the church, that's where your heart it
Ladies and gentlemen he put it straight to the point. Soooo either your going to be obey the word or do the opposite ? why stress, or question it?
That not my quote....
I agree that following or trying to follow the Word is important. By following we walk the right path, set our efforts to those project and task that will succeed. By going against God Wisdom we set ourselves up for failure.
The key is to understand God Wisdom first. Then we can follow.
If the statement to follow Gods Word means to proclaim that we should be circumcised, present out first born male child to the church and pay the redeeming price for them, not eat unclean foods, tithe, etc.. Then my friend we don't understand Gods Wisdom any more than the Pharisees that Jesus himself rebuked. Pharisees lost in following the letter of the law and blind to the truths contained therein. A false religion and faith, preverted to faith in our own works and abilities to follow.
Servant316,
Thank you for the link to the study on tithes. It was pretty much ground I'd already covered but still it helps to review and get someone elses incite on a topic. No study can cover all the angles but it did do a good job of sheading light on what the tithe was. Once we know what it was we can use that knowledge with the rest of God Wisdom to see the true picture and path.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 5:29:15 AM
|
|
|
4theLord
Posts: 16
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
heavenskeys
As long as we understand that there is a big difference between what you call "church", which really is just organized religion, and the Church, which is all those who follow Christ Jesus.
I give my tithe to the church where I go because I call it the "House of God". What my church does with my income is their responsability before God.God will see and He will judge how they have behaved cause everything that is collected in the church is given under God.
I give it to God freely. If someone comes to me and needs help from me I will give that help to him.
If we want to discuss about the church organisation then this is another topic and a long one. I attend an Assamblies of God church and there are many things that I do not agree but I like the message preached and the worship.
I try to be part of the body of Christ and what happens behind is God's deal.
We are not to judge where does the tithe goes. It is not our responsabilty.What you give in the name of God, let God take care of it. Yet every year in our church we have a report where does the money goes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 9:41:20 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: double
ShouldKnowBetter quote:
The {tithe} or money is just a heart test that the majority of us fail.
Jesus said that where your treasure is, there your heart is.
If your heart is in God, your resources are there.
If your time is at the lake and not the church, that's where your heart it
Ladies and gentlemen he put it straight to the point. Soooo either your going to be obey the word or do the opposite ? why stress, or question it?
You missed the point.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 10:00:09 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 4theLord
I give my tithe to the church where I go because I call it the "House of God".
Would you mind explaining, for all our understanding, how a mere label, "House of God," serves as an apologetic for going against biblical examples and commands? We are the House of God, not a pile of sticks constructed by the hands of mere men. Please clarify.
quote:
What my church does with my income is their responsability before God.God will see and He will judge how they have behaved cause everything that is collected in the church is given under God.
Really? What about stewardship? That's a two-way street. I don't see how anyone can think that they can so eaily escape personal responsibility for the mishandling of what you give. You freely choose to give to organized religion, which is known for its historic abuses of the primary portion of believer's giving.
You can't give a child a stick of dynamite, and then try to walk away from your own responsibility for that child blowing himself up.
quote:
I give it to God freely.
How is giving to organized religion synonymous with giving to God?
quote:
If someone comes to me and needs help from me I will give that help to him.
Primarily or secondarily?
quote:
We are not to judge where does the tithe goes. It is not our responsabilty.What you give in the name of God, let God take care of it.
This clearly goes against the grain of our responsibility for exercising our God-given reason, responsibility, and discernment. Even Paul himself comanded that we "prove all things." Who taught you the concept of blind trust of mere men? I can defend the fact that we are not to walk through life with such blind, misguided and misplaced faith. You can close your eyes to your responsibility to the poor and the servant of the Lord, but that will only serve as a bad example to your children and to others around you
quote:
Yet every year in our church we have a report where does the money goes.
You might want to educate yourself by studying the OT tithe, and how 100% of it went for the meeting of needs, not real estate, lawn care, buildings, progams, etc. Again, the Bible clearly stands in the way of this attempt at rewriting its stated message in relation to our giving.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 10:03:42 AM
|
|
|
heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
Many like pointing at, and praising, the widow who gave the two mites, which was all the money she had. That's a good sentiment, but sentiments are mostly meaningless and empty if not subject to biblical exmaples and commands.
That dear woman is the object of much speculation. It would have been nice to know more about her, but we're told nothing. What we are told in the text draws our eyes to the Master Himself rather than the widow, and what He was trying to say about the imagry before Him. (She was giving into the temple treasury, not the tithe. Just wanted to cut that off at the pass before anyone made that blunder.) It was about proportions more than it was about anything else, as is evidenced by His words.
What I'm driving at is this: I could praise that dear woman with the most lavish and articulate words and flare, but to her, my praises amount to nothing. She received praise from the Most High, which has infinite value to her, and carries an infinite weight of meaning and truth. In other words, she received infinitely more than she could possibly have ever given of her material things. Remember proportions: She gave all she had, but received infinitely more, even if she had been the richest woman in all the world and given it all. That accolade was of a worth beyond any measure.
Religionists focus on other mortals, elevate those mortals upon pedestals to be bowed down before and praised, which is idolatry. Those who are truly spiritual focus on the Master Himself. He is the only Source of affirmation and praise that carries any genuine, lasting worth that is infinite rather than fleeting.
HK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 12:46:43 PM
|
|
|
silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
|
My pastor gave a lesson on tithing this weekend. Breaks down like this.
With ANY money you earn (actual GREEN):
This is how we should be living, biblically (approximately):
Taxes 28%
Giving 10%
Savings 10%
Lifestyle 52%
Debt 0% (can be used, but should be paid off at the end of the month)
This is how most of the US lives:
Taxes 28%
Giving 0-2%
Savings 0-2%
Lifestyle 20%
Debt 48%
Pretty sad huh? What's even sadder, is it doesnt matter if you are a Christian or not, the stats are the same.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 1:25:30 PM
|
|
|
silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
|
Heres the link to listen to the sermon if you want: http://www.clcdayton.com/Media/MediaManager/08142005_Audio.wma
When you download it, zoom to around -31:30 (if using winamp), or about 15 minutes into the sermon (if using media player).
You might need to right click = save as, to play the file.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2005 3:36:30 PM
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
