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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 9:39:45 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:gluadysquote:
Why would God not inspire a myth?
“For God is not the author of confusion,” - I Corinthians 14:33a
Genesis is presented as factual history. If Genesis is actually myth rather than factual history, that would be authoring confusion.
quote:
Everything I see in scripture leads me to believe God often uses story and imagery for teaching purposes.
Does that include the virgin birth, life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?
quote:
Jesus told stories, and by his own claim, he did nothing his Father did not do.
Jesus was ALWAYS clear about His parables being parables. Genesis is presented in an historical genre. Presenting a myth in an historical genre would be deceptive. Are you claiming that God is deceptive?
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 9:50:21 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 8528
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quote:
2. light from the nearest star other than our sun takes 4.2 years to arrive
But...
quote:
2. the stars were visible on day 7
They were already made visible, thus, no need for a course of 4.2 years worth of traveling.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 9:52:20 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:gluadysquote:
Why would God not inspire a myth?
“For God is not the author of confusion,” - I Corinthians 14:33a
Genesis is presented as factual history. If Genesis is actually myth rather than factual history, that would be authoring confusion.
quote:
Everything I see in scripture leads me to believe God often uses story and imagery for teaching purposes.
Does that include the virgin birth, life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?
There are countless examples of prophets coming from virgin births waaaaaay before Jesus. One was even crucified, died, spent 3 days in hell and resurrected... all a few centuries before Christ. The story of Jesus is heavily borrowed from the prophet Zarathustra.
quote:
Jesus was ALWAYS clear about His parables being parables. Genesis is presented in an historical genre. Presenting a myth in an historical genre would be deceptive. Are you claiming that God is deceptive?
You should spend some time reading creation stories from the same time period, and before. You will see the story of Genesis is not as original as you think.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 9:54:47 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
We could stop grumbling about science curricula, shut down all the creationist propaganda organizations, and refuse to demand that Christians who believe in Redemption and Resurrection also adhere to a modernistic, scientific reading of a literalized Genesis which was never written with modern science in mind.
Or, we could shut down every evolutionist organization to halt the lie rooted in Atheism, deception, and social reinforcement which was never established with modern science in mind, but rather in a faulty interpretation of God-made science!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 9:58:59 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: draexoquote:
We need to get back to the 2 R's of Christianity. Redemption and Resurrection.
Redemption from what? If death was in the world before sin, what are we to be redeemed from?
quote:
Forget the rest.
No thank you.
Acts 17:11 and 2nd Timothy 2:15
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:08:43 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
You are the one who is confused. An ‘a’ placed in front of a word means ‘anti’. Atheist IS ANTI-God.
It is an agnostic (ignorant one) who can't decide which side of the fence to take regarding the existence of God.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:16:15 PM
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swan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
You are the one who is confused. An ‘a’ placed in front of a word means ‘anti’. Atheist IS ANTI-God.
It is an agnostic (ignorant one) who can't decide which side of the fence to take regarding the existence of God.
Don't claim the facts if they are not yours.
Atheism, as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] a type of nontheism.[4]
...
The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion.[8] With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
However, evolutionists don't call themselves as such because most evolutionists, excuse me, most who agree with TOE do not self-describe as subscribing to a particular dogma and do not use the term evolutionist.
< Message edited by swan42 -- 5/25/2008 10:25:07 PM >
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:18:02 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
You are the one who is confused. An ‘a’ placed in front of a word means ‘anti’. Atheist IS ANTI-God.
It is an agnostic (ignorant one) who can't decide which side of the fence to take regarding the existence of God.
Agnosticism has nothing to do with fence sitting. It is one who claims to have "no knowledge". One can be agnostic atheist or even agnostic theist, or just atheist or theist. You have misunderstood quite a lot of atheists if you mistake their position as a positive, certain assertion there is no god.
Wikipedia:
"Agnostic theism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. An agnostic theist is one who views that the truth value of certain claims, in particular the existence of god(s) is unknown or inherently unknowable but chooses to believe in God(s) in spite of this. An agnostic theist can also be classified as someone who believes in a god yet does not understand how God or deities work. There are contrasting views of the term."
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:32:12 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
Well, glad we can agree, proclaiming the existence of a god is totally illogical.
Again, saying material always existed and evolved over mya is no more logical. In fact, it's quite as illogical as believing in an invisible deity.
quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
If atheists profess a lack of belief, then they must acknowledge something is there. To profess a lack of belief in something, you must first know of it.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:34:43 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
Well, glad we can agree, proclaiming the existence of a god is totally illogical.
Again, saying material always existed and evolved over mya is no more logical. In fact, it's quite as illogical as believing in an invisible deity.
Wrong. We know the stuff we define as matter does in fact exist. We do not know the origin of it. There is nothing illogical about that.
quote:
quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
If atheists profess a lack of belief, then they must acknowledge something is there. To profess a lack of belief in something, you must first know of it.
quote:
lack
No. I lack belief in pink unicorns. I don't have to acknowledge that a pink unicorn exists in order to not believe in it.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:35:25 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
You will see the story of Genesis is not as original as you think.
At least you are consistent. Once again you are dead wrong. Your references are counterfeits Satan has introduced to confuse the Biblically ignorant. NONE of them stand up the scrutiny the Bible is constantly subjected to.
E.g. The prophesies of Tyre in the Bible are so accurate in detail that scoffers used to say “it’s easy to make accurate prophesies after the fact. They had to quit saying that though when archaeologist dug up manuscripts of those prophesies confirmed to have existed at least 150 years prior to Tyre’s destruction.
The prophesies of Tyre say that it will never be rebuilt, but rather will remain baron rock where fishermen dry their nets.
In fairness to the claims of today’s scoffers, not far from the location of the Biblical Tyre exists a village named Tyre. However, it is NOT in the same location of ancient Tyre nor does it even come close to the grandeur of ancient Tyre, which was a world power. What exists today at the location of ancient Tyre is baron rock where fishermen dry their nets.
Can you name ANY prophesies from any of your sources that can be verified today?
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:46:51 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
You will see the story of Genesis is not as original as you think.
At least you are consistent. Once again you are dead wrong. Your references are counterfeits Satan has introduced to confuse the Biblically ignorant. NONE of them stand up the scrutiny the Bible is constantly subjected to.
E.g. The prophesies of Tyre in the Bible are so accurate in detail that scoffers used to say “it’s easy to make accurate prophesies after the fact. They had to quit saying that though when archaeologist dug up manuscripts of those prophesies confirmed to have existed at least 150 years prior to Tyre’s destruction.
The prophesies of Tyre say that it will never be rebuilt, but rather will remain baron rock where fishermen dry their nets.
In fairness to the claims of today’s scoffers, not far from the location of the Biblical Tyre exists a village named Tyre. However, it is NOT in the same location of ancient Tyre nor does it even come close to the grandeur of ancient Tyre, which was a world power. What exists today at the location of ancient Tyre is baron rock where fishermen dry their nets.
Can you name ANY prophesies from any of your sources that can be verified today?
I don't know much about this particular prophecy, but it appears the Bible contradicts itself with this one, according to what I am reading:
"Ezekiel also prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, which would never again be rebuilt (26:7-14, but Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre failed to take the city, and Tyre still exists today. A curious thing about this prophecy against Tyre is that Isaiah also predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, but, whereas Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be permanently destroyed and "nevermore have any being," Isaiah prophesied that it would be made desolate only for a period of 70 years. A comparison of these two prophecies is an easy way to show the silliness of claiming that prophecy fulfillment proves the inspiration of the Bible.
As noted in my exchanges with Matthew Hogan on Ezekiel's tirade against Tyre (September/October 1997; November/December 1997), Ezekiel clearly predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, become a bare rock and a place for spreading nets, and would be built no more forever (26:7-14, 21; 27:28; 28:19). As Ezekiel did, Isaiah in his prophecies of destruction against the nations around Israel also predicted the overthrow of Tyre. In 23:1, he said, "The burden of Tyre. Howl, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is revealed to them." The prophecy continued in typical fashion through the chapter, predicting waste and devastation, but beginning in verse 13, Isaiah indicated that the destruction of Tyre would be only temporary, not permanent:"
...
Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre forever, and it was never made desolate for a period of 70 years. Even when Alexander the Great succeeded in his campaign against Tyre in 332 B. C., the city was soon rebuilt (Wallace B. Fleming, The History of Tyre, Columbia University Press, p. 64) and has existed ever since.
...
If the Bible was really inspired by an omniscient, omnipotent deity, why would he have directed one prophet to predict a temporary destruction of Tyre and then later direct another prophet to predict that Tyre would be destroyed forever and never be rebuilt? A likely answer is that neither prophet was divinely inspired; they both simply blustered in the exaggerated rhetoric typical of biblical prophets and, working independently, contradicted each other.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 5/25/2008 10:57:15 PM >
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 10:57:54 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
1. You don't know the difference between myth and fairy tale.
2. Why would God not inspire a myth? Everything I see in scripture leads me to believe God often uses story and imagery for teaching purposes. Jesus told stories, and by his own claim, he did nothing his Father did not do.
1. Stop trying to correct me. The Webster dictionary sitting beside me reads "a false belief or opinion". That is the context I took it as.
I take it that the dictionary also offered other definitions. The idea of "falsity" attached to myth is a common popular usage and Webster's is correct to list it as one meaning.
But, like many words "myth" has more than one meaning. In the study of literature it is a technical term referring to a particular genre of story-telling. That was the context in which I used it.
quote:
I know Jesus often used analogies and imagery to relate stories and prophecies. But to say the account of creation was written as an analogy, that's basically saying it was an image painted to resemble a different fact. Which, as you profess, is evolution.
No, it is not an image painted to deceive i.e. to say there is a creation when there is not. But it is a story about creation, an image painted of creation, not a scientific account of how creation happened.
It has nothing to say about evolution one way or another.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/25/2008 11:19:06 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7604
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quote:
The story of Jesus is heavily borrowed from the prophet Zarathustra.
You know, I hear this a lot, but upon closer examination it generally turns out not to be true. In fact it tends to prove that the person who repeated it was gullibly taken in by something they read on some skeptic site. Feel free to share specific, historically credible objective facts connecting Zarathustra and the development of the Gospels, or simply admit this is a rumor.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 1:11:09 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1025
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
But you are confused with what atheism is... it's a lack of belief in God, not and outright proclamation that no God can possibly exist.
You are the one who is confused. An ‘a’ placed in front of a word means ‘anti’.
No, it doesn't.
a-, an-: a prefix meaning: no, absence of, without, lack of, not
An amnesiac is not anti-memory. A person with apnea is not anti-breathing. A snake that is an apod is not anti-feet.
quote:
Atheist IS ANTI-God.
wrong
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 2:53:22 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
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quote:
If you think you are finding contradictions to them in the scriptures, I suggest you need to re-examine your assumptions about the scriptures. Quite wrong, gluadys! Anyone who thinks they are finding contradictions to man's science and history in the Scriptures needs to re-examine their assumptions about their interpretation of science and history!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 4:49:14 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 1111
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ORIGINAL: drj11quote:
Ezekiel also prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, which would never again be rebuilt
Well sure, if you distort the prophecies the distortions are easy to refute.
“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.” Ezekiel 26:3
“For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.” – Ezekiel 26:7-8
Nebuchadrezzar was only the first of many to come against Tyre. He did exactly as prophesied by laying waste to the mainland (in the field) part of Tyre and, although unsuccessfull, attacking the Island portion. If, as the first to attack Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar had totally destroyed Tyre to never be rebuilt as your distortion of prophesy says, then “many nations” could never have come against Tyre.
“And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.” – Ezekiel 26:3
Alexander the Great exactly fulfilled this prophecy some 200 years after Nebuchadrezzar’s attack.
Since it’s final destruction, after the assaults of “many nations” Tyre has NEVER regained even close to it’s former glory as a world power. Therefore it has NEVER been rebuilt. What was the heart of ancient Tyre is even today baron rock where fishermen dry their nets.
The Bible’s prophesies concerning Tyre, baring the distortions your ilk applies to them, have been fulfilled quite precisely.
Now please present a prophesy from one of your sources that can stand up to the scrutiny you apply to Biblical prophecy.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 5:17:20 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If you think you are finding contradictions to them in the scriptures, I suggest you need to re-examine your assumptions about the scriptures. Quite wrong, gluadys! Anyone who thinks they are finding contradictions to man's science and history in the Scriptures needs to re-examine their assumptions about their interpretation of science and history!
If you had read that quote in context, you would see I was not speaking of contradictions between science and scriptural intepretations, but contradictions between the facts of physical reality and interpretations of scripture.
Do you actually hold it permissible, even mandatory, to cling to an interpretation of scripture that denies the facts of the creation?
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 8:30:27 PM
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draexo
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My personal opinion is the Christians who believe in evolution in place of creation, just do not have enough faith to believe that the science they were taught in schools could be wrong. They choose logic and reason over God. There are mysteries in the universe and we will never come to know everything on this side of Heaven. I think God designed it that way to keep us humble and to also have us live in faith. This world amounts to nothing. Why must we all live in it and argue over stupidity???
We assume that what we are taught in school is the truth, always has been and always will be. But it changes. If it runs against our faith, we either have to wall it off from our faith or make it work with our faith.
I grew up believing there were nine planets in the solar system. Now science has changed its mind again.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 9:13:16 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 1111
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ORIGINAL: draexoquote:
They choose logic and reason over God.
Actually what they choose is materialistic rationalization. It is neither logic nor reason.
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 9:53:04 PM
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swan42
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quote:
I grew up believing there were nine planets in the solar system. Now science has changed its mind again.
This is considered a good thing and illustrates the differences between scientists and fundamentalists (Islamic or Christian).
A scientist seeks truth and is willing to correct oneself when faced with contrary evidence.
A fundamentalist seeks truth and sticks fingers in each ear when faced with contrary evidence.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/26/2008 10:07:09 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
I grew up believing there were nine planets in the solar system. Now science has changed its mind again.
This is considered a good thing and illustrates the differences between scientists and fundamentalists (Islamic or Christian).
A scientist seeks truth and is willing to correct oneself when faced with contrary evidence.
A fundamentalist seeks truth and sticks fingers in each ear when faced with contrary evidence.
Isnt it funny? Every time science unabashedly and openly corrects itself, they see it as a sign of unreliability.
They then hold up their religion as reliable, because it never (refuses) corrects itself!! (at least in the fundamentalists case).
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