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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/26/2008 9:12:54 PM
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teachered
Posts: 46
Joined: 12/11/2007
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From my understanding it is illegal for the church to use money other than what it was intended to use it for. If you specifically marked that this money was intended for that project they should give you that money back. If you did not specifically mark what the offering was intended for then the church can put it towards the general fund, and use it for whatever they wish to use it for within the church.
I certainly do not see anything wrong with asking for the money back. If you were to order something over the internet, let's say you ordered a bedspread and you were sent a pair of shoes instead that company did not send you what you ordered. they therefore should refund you or send you what you ordered. The same applies in this situation. You gave money for a "specific" purpose. If the church is no longer going through with what they intended to do, they should give the money back to anyone who gave. Some people may just go ahead & tell the church to keep it & use it for other purposes, but they should let each individual make that decission.
In my opinion, if the church does not offer to give the money back to each person who gave, I would not want to be a part of that church. They would be lacking integrity.
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/26/2008 9:41:14 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 911
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quote:
Please support your answer with God's Word or other relevant sources.
I don't see a problem with it but I don't know if I could find a Bible passage that would unambigulously support me on that. What would be considered "other relevant sources"?
quote:
Some people may just go ahead & tell the church to keep it & use it for other purposes, but they should let each individual make that decission.
I can't say it any better than that.
It might be pertinent to know why the Church decided not to go through with the project. While I can see where it might be acceptable and even appropriate to ask for the money back it depends on the situation.
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My Own Thread, Come See!
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/26/2008 10:10:48 PM
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Random
Posts: 1103
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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I agree with the poster who said that they CAN'T use the money for something else if it was designated for a specific use. That is against the law. They don't have to accept the gift, but if they do, they have to use it for the specified reason. If they can't or don't use it for that, they must return it.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/26/2008 11:44:27 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5964
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I've never thought about a situation like this before.
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/26/2008 11:54:29 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3441
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Me neither. And I hate to say this, but if I had given a lot of money I'd be more concerned about getting it back than if I'd just given a little. I think that makes me sound shallow.
But I'm definitely curious why the initial project isn't being done.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 8:18:39 AM
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P31W
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OK from what I understand it is going to depend upon how the chruch is set up to handle situations such as this.
In my church if someone gives money to say the "cemetary" fund. They have designated the funds to it and we discover we cannot pay our light bill our church has already decided and voted at a business meeting to take funds from whatever group and put it into the general fund. So what they are doing is not necessarily illegal.
Considering your chruch asked for money specifically for one project and now that is gone I see nothing wrong with your asking for the money back. I don't know if they can give it back or not but I see nothing unbiblical about your asking.
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 9:51:08 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 498
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If the money is not being used for the intended project, then I would ask for my money back.
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Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 9:53:38 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3441
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What probably should happen is that one of the church leaders should announce to the congregation what happened and offer the return the money. It doesn't sound like there has been any official announcement that the project isn't going to be attempted.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 2:09:57 PM
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BarryLee
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The same thing happened to me. The church had a big dinner and asked everyone to give “Above and Beyond” their tithe. This money would be used for a new building, classrooms, parking lots, and other improvements which they shared in detail.
Well after a few years of collecting this money they decided that due to changing demographics in the community they would build a new church in another community instead of upgrading the existing facility. The new building was about forty minutes away and it eventually split from the main church leaving many of us feeling a little – well duped.
You know what – the more I thought about it the less upset I was. I mean previously there had been one church and now there were two. Both churches are approximate in size and have healthy Christ centered ministries.
So, at the end of the day it is all for Christ glory….
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 3:05:10 PM
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Rufas2000
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Thats a great attitude Barry. And of course the new facility needed a new building, classrooms, parking lots and other stuff. 
I think its important to think about whether a church that takes an offering for a specific project and then abandons the project are doing it for a ministry reason or to fix financial mismanagement.
_____________________________
My Own Thread, Come See!
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 5:15:13 PM
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Random
Posts: 1103
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From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
In my church if someone gives money to say the "cemetary" fund. They have designated the funds to it and we discover we cannot pay our light bill our church has already decided and voted at a business meeting to take funds from whatever group and put it into the general fund. So what they are doing is not necessarily illegal.
Just because your church is doing it doesn't mean it's not illegal. I think you need a little more of a basis than that.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/27/2008 11:00:56 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 8766
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From: Washington State
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I'm a church bookkeeper so I can speak to this. If you specifically designated funds for a specific project, a church or charity must use those funds for that particular project or not use those funds at all. If those funds are used for anything else, donors can sue the organization and will likely win. And this does happen (a certain Scripture comes to mind though regarding the sad state of affairs it is when believers sue each other though...). It doesn't matter if the pastor isn't going to get paid and the water to the church got turned off. Those funds cannot be released by the church for another purpose... Period... Of course, if the church was in that circumstance, the donors can (and IMHO should) release the church from it's legal obligation for their particular designations.
As far as returning those funds, that can get sticky and depends on the circumstances. For instance, a church would actually be risking it's tax exempt status and the deductibility of all charitable donations to it if it returned someone's tithe. In the case of designated funds, if the church decides not to do the project (for instance, a new building), they can return those donations (and should offer IMHO) or the donors can release the church of the obligation to use it for that project and those funds become "undesignated" or "designated" for something else. This is different from someone deciding that they don't want those funds to go for that project but the project is still going to occur. In that case, the church is under no obligation to return the funds and it would be detrimental to the church and other donors in the church for it to do so.
I actually keep records of all designated funds. Some are projects that are ongoing so the funds flow in and out (for instance, offerings for specific missions projects). Others are for things we have no plans to do anytime in the near future, so those funds are untouchable and basically sit in the bank and earn interest (which by the way, the church COULD use as it sees fit).
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 3:25:27 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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My entire opinion is related to Paul's letter to the Corinthians... the part where he asked them why they were dragging each other before secular courts to settle disputes... "Do you not know that one day you will judge angels?" I would say that it is up to you to ask the church for your offering back, but by all means, DO NOT TAKE IT TO COURT. Why? Because if everybody is operating in humility and meekness, the church will give you your money back if you ask for it. If the church refuses to act in humility and meekness, that doesn't force you to do the same. Is this letting someone else walk all over your rights? Absolutely... that is the point of meekness. I would suggest finding a new church if they refuse to act honestly... just make sure you leave with a "God bless you" and forgiveness in your heart... that's all you should really have to do.
Adam
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 8:44:53 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3615
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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My opinion would depend on...
why was the original plan for the money canceled...
and what were they going to do with the money now?
If the first plan was a fraud of some sort just to raise money, I would leave the church. If it isn't honest enough just to ask for money that it needs then its not a christian church in my opinion.
If what they plan to do with the money doesn't further the kingdom of God, I would leave the church.
If some legitimate reason came up they had to cancel the other project and had a need for the money elsewhere that was a true Christ centered need, I would not ask for the money back.
To me this is a trust issue between myself and the church. Taking the money back, to me, would suggest a lack of trust in the church...and if ya can't trust your church, leave it.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 9:51:37 AM
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Random
Posts: 1103
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From: Zipperhead
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Thanks, phosadaud, that confirms everything I have read.
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"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 3:03:22 PM
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P31W
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Churches that solicit funds for designated projects face difficult choices when they abandon the project and are left with the task of disposing of funds donated for that project. These problems can be avoided if the church simply includes a statement similar to the following when soliciting funds for a specific project:
"By contributing to this project, donors acknowledge that the church has the authority to apply contributions designated for this project to another, related purpose in the event that the project is canceled."
Such a statement should be printed on special offering envelopes used for the project, or on any other materials so long as they provide adequate notice to donors of the policy and reflect donors' consent to it.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/cbg/churchlawtax/articles/ask_churchtreasurdonorrefund.html
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/28/2008 3:42:27 PM >
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 3:37:05 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2080
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http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/files/lwcf_pdf_hamilton_designatedfundmanagement.pdf
Here is another good source.
quote:
Just because your church is doing it doesn't mean it's not illegal. I think you need a little more of a basis than that.
We also belong to our local association that provides free legal advise for the area churches. It's pretty common for our churches to have legal workshops from time to time just to insure the churches are on top of the legal issues. We also have a couple of CPA's in our congregation who are sticklers about these sorts of issues.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/28/2008 3:58:22 PM >
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 5:01:56 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10743
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Random
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
In my church if someone gives money to say the "cemetary" fund. They have designated the funds to it and we discover we cannot pay our light bill our church has already decided and voted at a business meeting to take funds from whatever group and put it into the general fund. So what they are doing is not necessarily illegal.
Just because your church is doing it doesn't mean it's not illegal. I think you need a little more of a basis than that.
Actually if the church had a business meeting and the minutes of that meeting are recorded that says what she said then that does make it legal. Those minutes mean the donors voted for the money to be used for other purposes in an emergency.
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 9:47:33 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5964
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I've decided not to ask for my money back at this time, however if they change their mind and not go through with the project, then I'll reconsider asking them for my money back.
I know this is a tough decision for you and I will keep you in my prayers. ((((hugs))))
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 10:26:51 PM
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casalys
Posts: 6
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From: The Florida Space Coast
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We should pray over everything we do, including where God wants us to use His money that He has put into our care. If He has told me to give in a certain situation, and the situation changes, does that mean I didn't hear Him or He was wrong? Last week, a similar situation happened with me. I knew clearly that I was to give $80 towards something and now it may not happen. We do not have much money and this was big deal to give this much and I really stepped out in faith to do so. At first I was upset and confused, but God clearly told me that I obeyed Him and gave to Him. It's His money to do what He wants with and sometimes, it is only important that we give, not exactly what it's for. It's our heart that matters, not the money.
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Wife to Jack, Mother to Alyssa, Cassandra, Brian, and Lydia
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 10:37:42 PM
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Random
Posts: 1103
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Actually if the church had a business meeting and the minutes of that meeting are recorded that says what she said then that does make it legal. Those minutes mean the donors voted for the money to be used for other purposes in an emergency.
That is not entirely correct. The members of the church can't vote for something that is contrary to law. They also can't vote away someone else's rights.
For example, if you are a donor, but not a member of the church, that vote is not binding on you.
There was actually an article in the WSJ today about this exact topic. I would like to it, but it is behind the paywall. It said exactly what phosadaud said, that charitable organizations must use donations for the specific thing they were donated for (unless they were not directed donations). It even listed some examples, including a school that got a donation that was contingent on them remaining a women-only school. When they decided to admit men, they had to disclaim the gift.
The law seems to be very clear -- if a donation is made to a specific project, it can only be used for that, unless the donor agrees to the change. And that means the specific donor, it is not "majority rules."
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Asking For Your Offering Back - 5/28/2008 10:47:12 PM
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karlie
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Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
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If it were me in this situation, instead | | |
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