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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 3:15:42 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I am curious…this is a question to the OSAS group. How do you explain Luke 17:29-32? Does this not indicate that Christ is warning not to turn back?Bob
The passage is referring to "the day that the Son of Man is revealed". To me, that speaks of the end of the Tribulation, when Christ returns to earth. And Jesus is comparing that day to the day when fire and brimstone rained on Sodom.
Seems to me the warning is about physical death if one turns back.
What think you?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 5:23:34 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Rack another assumption up to Kelman.
You're post #302 was in regards to one loosing salvation.
My observation was based on that post alone. And here you pull water baptism into it. Yep, and my observation was based on your complaint that you are the recipient of some nefarious "friendly fire".
quote:
I have to say I do remain entertained with my daily installment of "The Gospel According To Kelman".
You'd do far better by getting a daily installment of the Gospel according to Jesus Christ...and, not concern yourself so much with people's theology especially considering your only delight appears to be the flinging about of fiery darts. Again, saying a lot more about you than anyone else.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 5:27:13 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I am curious…this is a question to the OSAS group. How do you explain Luke 17:29-32? Does this not indicate that Christ is warning not to turn back?
Bob
Read in its context we see it refers to the last day when all will be destroyed, i.e., the flood which destroyed everyone and everything and the "fire and brimstone" which destroyed Sodom. We're told that life will continue on essentially the same as always before the world ends(vv 26-27).
Lot's wife had her attention on the things of this world when the end came. We're being warned to learn from her mistake.
Not sure what this has to do with eternal security since Scripture frequently teaches us how we should live. It does this in both a positive and a negative manner.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 6:02:07 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I am curious…this is a question to the OSAS group. How do you explain Luke 17:29-32? Does this not indicate that Christ is warning not to turn back?
Bob
Read in its context we see it refers to the last day when all will be destroyed, i.e., the flood which destroyed
The flood? Where do you get that from Luke 17:29-32? Look closely at v.30. What does "same day that the Son of Man is revealed" mean to you?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 6:55:51 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1788
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From: Kansas
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quote:
I am curious…this is a question to the OSAS group. How do you explain Luke 17:29-32? Does this not indicate that Christ is warning not to turn back?
Bob
Sorry...posted this in the wrong thread.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 11:14:54 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Another assumption you have made Kelman.
I'm not a coCer.
I assure you my brother that I spend ample time in Scripture.
As far as fiery darts go, I suppose you missed the whole part of post #302 and the fact that I agree that it is possible to "loose" salvation. (Or at least that's what I understood you were meaning.)
Kelman, I'm not the enemy, I just don't agree with you on a lot of stuff you post.
Oddly enough if you're ever in Nashville, I'd LOVE to share a cup of coffee with you (You can have your own cup since it's coffee not communion...lol)
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/11/2008 11:37:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4435
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I never said Christ wasn't in the Creation. But Romans 1 isn't about Christ. It is about the initial divine revelation that God makes evident to everyone. Which is the basis for why men would even seek Him.
How is Christ absent in Romans 1 if the TRUTH of God is evident in creation?
When God makes evident to all of mankind "that which is known about God" through creation, ie: His existence, attributes, and divine power and nature, do you think that includes specifically Christ? Why?
How can it not? The bible says they are one....
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 4:16:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3703
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I am curious…this is a question to the OSAS group. How do you explain Luke 17:29-32? Does this not indicate that Christ is warning not to turn back?
Bob
Read in its context we see it refers to the last day when all will be destroyed, i.e., the flood which destroyed
The flood? Where do you get that from Luke 17:29-32? Look closely at v.30. What does "same day that the Son of Man is revealed" mean to you?
I get if from Luke 17:26 "26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."
These passages are referring to judgments. Vs 30 says "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." Seems clear it means that "in the day" Christ returns there will be judgment just as the judgments of Sodom and the Flood. It is connecting the return of Christ with judgment and the Rapture as described in vv 34-36.
I don't think we'll find common ground on this because our eschatological views are very different.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 4:18:10 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Another assumption you have made Kelman.
I'm not a coCer.
I assure you my brother that I spend ample time in Scripture.
As far as fiery darts go, I suppose you missed the whole part of post #302 and the fact that I agree that it is possible to "loose" salvation. (Or at least that's what I understood you were meaning.)
Kelman, I'm not the enemy, I just don't agree with you on a lot of stuff you post.
Oddly enough if you're ever in Nashville, I'd LOVE to share a cup of coffee with you (You can have your own cup since it's coffee not communion...lol)
I'd be delighted to share that cup of coffee with you, though, we'd probably be better off if we just discussed the weather or country music... and not theology :)
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 9:09:00 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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lol @ Kelman!
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 10:31:56 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I never said Christ wasn't in the Creation. But Romans 1 isn't about Christ. It is about the initial divine revelation that God makes evident to everyone. Which is the basis for why men would even seek Him.
How is Christ absent in Romans 1 if the TRUTH of God is evident in creation?
When God makes evident to all of mankind "that which is known about God" through creation, ie: His existence, attributes, and divine power and nature, do you think that includes specifically Christ? Why?
How can it not? The bible says they are one....
When you first became aware of the existence of God as Creator, were you also aware of His Son, Jesus Christ at that time?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 3:24:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4435
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I never said Christ wasn't in the Creation. But Romans 1 isn't about Christ. It is about the initial divine revelation that God makes evident to everyone. Which is the basis for why men would even seek Him.
How is Christ absent in Romans 1 if the TRUTH of God is evident in creation?
When God makes evident to all of mankind "that which is known about God" through creation, ie: His existence, attributes, and divine power and nature, do you think that includes specifically Christ? Why?
How can it not? The bible says they are one....
When you first became aware of the existence of God as Creator, were you also aware of His Son, Jesus Christ at that time?
Yes... And by all means please continue to paint a picture of God without Jesus...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 3:28:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I never said Christ wasn't in the Creation. But Romans 1 isn't about Christ. It is about the initial divine revelation that God makes evident to everyone. Which is the basis for why men would even seek Him.
How is Christ absent in Romans 1 if the TRUTH of God is evident in creation?
When God makes evident to all of mankind "that which is known about God" through creation, ie: His existence, attributes, and divine power and nature, do you think that includes specifically Christ? Why?
How can it not? The bible says they are one....
When you first became aware of the existence of God as Creator, were you also aware of His Son, Jesus Christ at that time?
Yes...
Wow! How old were you when you recall your first thoughts about God?
quote:
And by all means please continue to paint a picture of God without Jesus...
I haven't been doing that. From the life of Cornelius we know that he had no knowledge of Christ even though he was reverencing God and praying to Him. That's why Peter was sent with the gospel. So he would hear the message.
Romans 1 is about initial concept about God, so that man will know there is a God, and "perhaps he will seek Him" as Acts 17:27 notes.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 7:45:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4435
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Wow! How old were you when you recall your first thoughts about God?
I would say about 10...
quote:
I haven't been doing that.
Yes you have... You denied Christ is evident in Creation...
quote:
From the life of Cornelius we know that he had no knowledge of Christ even though he was reverencing God and praying to Him.
What verse says Cornelius had no knowledge of Christ? The bible says the way to the Father is through the Son...
quote:
Romans 1 is about initial concept about God, so that man will know there is a God, and "perhaps he will seek Him" as Acts 17:27 notes.
It says the truth of God... Without Christ there is no truth... You are again downplaying...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/12/2008 8:01:07 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
You denied Christ is evident in Creation...
The Person of Christ is not evident in creation, just as the Person of the Holy Spirit isn't. All three members of the Godhead are involved with creation, but what God has made evident through creation is His essence, not His Persons. There is no further point in arguing this. We will just have to agree to disagree.
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quote:
From the life of Cornelius we know that he had no knowledge of Christ even though he was reverencing God and praying to Him.
What verse says Cornelius had no knowledge of Christ? The bible says the way to the Father is through the Son...
That is true ultimately. But one must first believe in the existence of God, as Heb 11:6 says. otoh, why don't you show me from Scripture where we read that he did have knowledge of Christ prior to Peter's message?
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 is about initial concept about God, so that man will know there is a God, and "perhaps he will seek Him" as Acts 17:27 notes.
It says the truth of God... Without Christ there is no truth... You are again downplaying...
You can think so if you want. But since you apparently don't see the fact that there are levels of divine revelation, all of which lead up to Jesus Christ, there is no further point of this discussion.
Cornelius believed what God made evident to him from Romans 1.
Cornelius believed the angel that God sent.
Cornelius believed the gospel from Peter who was sent from God.
3 different times Cornelius was given divine truth. All 3 times he believed what was presented.
Do you want to deny any of this?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/29/2008 5:46:41 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I would have to agree with FreeGrace.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "evident" in creation as God (the Father/Creator) is.
The only testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit we have is held in the pages of the Bible.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/30/2008 9:23:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4435
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I would have to agree with FreeGrace.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "evident" in creation as God (the Father/Creator) is.
The only testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit we have is held in the pages of the Bible.
Any testment of God is a testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit... Creation wasn't hatched by God alone in the context that Christ and the Holy Spirit took a day off...
Romans 1 speaks to creation showing God's divinity... How can that be without Christ in the picture? When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"
Is not Jesus declared the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end?
John
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 3:45:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3703
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I would have to agree with FreeGrace.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "evident" in creation as God (the Father/Creator) is.
The only testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit we have is held in the pages of the Bible.
Any testment of God is a testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit... Creation wasn't hatched by God alone in the context that Christ and the Holy Spirit took a day off...
Romans 1 speaks to creation showing God's divinity... How can that be without Christ in the picture? When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"
Is not Jesus declared the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end?
John
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And we see in Gen 1:2 "the spirit of God".... so all three Persons of the Godhead are seen in creation.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 7:27:11 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 517
Joined: 1/11/2006
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Let me clarify.
There is NO OTHER PLACE that we are taught about the Holy Spirit or God's Son (Jesus) than in the Bible.
We know that the Holy Spirit and Jesus was part of the creative process only because the Bible tells us so.
Although the creation bears testament to God, a creative designer if you will, the Bible is the ONLY place where "who" God is is clarified.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 9:02:53 AM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LXX
I was in a chat room with a fellow believer and we got on the subject of infant salvation. He seem to believe in a black and white version of born into sin. Meaning, if you die at any age without the belief in Christ then you are lost. I responded that infants and children that are not at the age of accountability fall under a special grace by God. He responded by "show me the verse". He was not, to my understanding, having an attitude but was inquisitive.
So I explained first that in 1Co 13:12, (For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.), that understanding a few subjects might fall under this scripture. Meaning, there are some scriptures that will allude to it and some mysteries will not be fully known by us.
With that said I used, 2Sa 12:23 (And now he has died. Why this, that I should fast? Am I able to bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) This is David's 1st child and God said David's first will die because of David's sin and his responce was that he can't bring the child back but he will meet him in heaven.
Now this is an example of a child that is not accountable due to his understanding and the punishment from God was the death of this child. But God's grace gave David the insight to make a statement like he did that he would be with him in the after life.
I am not a calvinist but this website has a very knowledgable opinion on this subject.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.xi.html?highlight=infant,salvation#highlight
In conclusion using 1co 13:12 as our format of this subject and 2Sa 12:23 as a reference text I can without any doubt know that infants and children before the age of accountability are under God's special grace and will be in heaven if the pass away because of the neverending love of God toward this world during this grace we fall under.
So where does the bible talk about an age of accountability? Nowhere. 1 Corinthians 7:14 also talks about children who are unclean. Also Romans 9:11 explains that it's God's election that determines who will be saved, not man's decisions, superstitions, or rituals. "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." That means that God wasn't going to save Esau at any age.
So infant baptism is a superstitious ritual that began precisely because people know that infants are not saved just because they're infants. But since nowhere does the bible talk about baptizing unbelievers, then the myth that infant baptism saves is as meaningless as any other ritual.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 10:06:28 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
So where does the bible talk about an age of accountability? Nowhere.
While the Bible does not use the term "age of accountability" the Bible clearly teaches that children discern between good and evil at a certain age (Isa. 7:16; Jonah 4:11).
Infants and very young children can neither understand nor respond to the Gospel. Unless a person understands that he or she is a sinner, they cannot repent and turn to the Savior.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 10:12:04 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So infant baptism is a superstitious ritual that began precisely because people know that infants are not saved just because they're infants.
So, if people know that infants are not saved, whose sin do they think these infants are being held accountable for that puts them in an unsaved state?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/31/2008 11:11:32 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I would have to agree with FreeGrace.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "evident" in creation as God (the Father/Creator) is.
The only testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit we have is held in the pages of the Bible.
Any testment of God is a testament of Christ and the Holy Spirit... Creation wasn't hatched by God alone in the context that Christ and the Holy Spirit took a day off...
Please don't be silly.
quote:
Romans 1 speaks to creation showing God's divinity... How can that be without Christ in the picture? When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am" | | |
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