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Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/18/2008 5:37:05 PM
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loco79
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I was just wondering if anybody knew of any really good versus that say or imply scripture alone. I have been looking for some time and have not been successfull.
Any direction or guidance would be gratefull.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/18/2008 7:52:17 PM
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KickingBird
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Hi loco79,
Welcome, I am new, too. 
Read 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Also, 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Scripture will make us wise unto salvation.
One critical factor to remember is that Jesus himself taught scripture. He also refuted the devil with His own words by saying "It is written." Christ stood very firm on His own words. Doesn't get any better than that.
I do have more if you are interested. I actually did a study on this and found at least 10 pages of scripture where it shows God's word to be infallible and trust worthy.
Will check back later.
God bless,
KB
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/18/2008 10:47:15 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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quote:
was just wondering if anybody knew of any really good versus that say or imply scripture alone. I have been looking for some time and have not been successfull.
This is not surprising because Jesus set up a Church and gave it authority to teach.
It is quite obvious throughout the New Testament that the intention was not to rely solely on scripture.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/18/2008 11:37:12 PM
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Godhead
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Well if you read the New Testament, the scriptures where used frequently to prove the validity and work of Christ. They were good enough for the Apostles and they are good enough for me. We have a more sure word of prophecy in the scriptures 2 Pet 1:19.
if you follow a fool then you will become a fool. If you follow the scriptures then you are learning from God. In that there is no doubt. Better to stick with what is of a surety don’t you think. The Complete Bible has everything that you need to know about Christ, Sin, Salvation, God, Angels, Devils and so forth.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 12:08:21 AM
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Stephanos
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I fully support all Five Solas, including Sola Scripture. However, this does not mean I throw all theologians under the bus because "Scripture is all I need". I look at people like Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Zwingly, Edwards, ect., and while they may get things wrong, they also get a lot right. I do not use their teachings above scripture, but I also do not say their teachings are worthless.
Proverbs talks about the teachings of wise men. Even Paul makes it clear that Elders are leaders who are to "teach" their flock. I may be nieve, but I do not believe that the only elder(s) God has given me are those in charge of my particular church. In a spiritual sense, the great theologians who went before me are my elders. And we can learn alot from them. But just like we dont hold our own personal pastor/elder/reverends teachings above that of Scripture, so also can we listen to and respect our Christian forefathers teachings, while not holding them above scripture.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 1:32:13 AM
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KickingBird
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I find this statement curious: quote:
This is not surprising because Jesus set up a Church and gave it authority to teach.
It is quite obvious throughout the New Testament that the intention was not to rely solely on scripture.
Peace,
DNP
Are you saying that the church has authority over and above scripture? Curious!
To the person who believes in all Five Solas, so do I . Also, I like all the theologians you subscribe to. I read most all of their works. I would add two modern day theologians to that list, RC Sproul and John Piper. My all time favorite is Jonathan Edwards.
< Message edited by KickingBird -- 6/19/2008 1:38:50 AM >
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 1:51:38 AM
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justajerk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
I was just wondering if anybody knew of any really good versus that say or imply scripture alone. I have been looking for some time and have not been successfull.
Any direction or guidance would be gratefull.
Well brother,
Here is some direction to a plethura of useful sources: Click Here
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 2:29:39 AM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KickingBird
I find this statement curious: quote:
This is not surprising because Jesus set up a Church and gave it authority to teach.
It is quite obvious throughout the New Testament that the intention was not to rely solely on scripture.
Peace,
DNP
Are you saying that the church has authority over and above scripture? Curious!
To the person who believes in all Five Solas, so do I . Also, I like all the theologians you subscribe to. I read most all of their works. I would add two modern day theologians to that list, RC Sproul and John Piper. My all time favorite is Jonathan Edwards.
I differ with Pastor Piper on only one topic (that I know of). Other than that, while he is baptist, he is BGC...Well...if you have to be baptist and not SBC I "guess" BGC is the way to go...I wont hold it against him...lol...
Anyway, you are right, there are some great thinkers alive today other than Sproul and Piper...I originally did not want to say so because naming great forefathers is bad enough. But thinkers and theologians like Ravi Zacharias, Albert Mohler, John MacArthur, DA Carson, ect, are great as well. Again, the teachings and thoughts of these men are not greater or even close to equal to scripture (and I am sure that every single one of them would agree). And none of them are right on every single subject (again, I am sure they all would honestly tell you that they could be wrong on some of what they say). But what they say is valuable because it helps the average Christian understand.
It is like the Nicene-Constaninoplian Creed. It is not greater than scripture, or should scripture be interpreted through it, but rather it is a tool to help us understand and formulate what scripture says in a way many people can understand. Whether they like Creeds or not, nearly every single Christian (Catholic AND Protestant) agree with the basic ideas that this creed puts forth. Like wise, for the most part, the great theologians and thinkers today, and throughout Christian history, have great ideas that we today can use to help us in our understanding of scripture.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 8:43:34 AM
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endless_night
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The only thing I know is this, if someone only read scripture for the rest of their life, they have all they need for salvation and all that is needed to teach others. The word of God is a double-edged sword, it's able to break the hearts of any man.
_____________________________
The Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praises endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 9:50:26 AM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KickingBird
I find this statement curious: quote:
This is not surprising because Jesus set up a Church and gave it authority to teach.
It is quite obvious throughout the New Testament that the intention was not to rely solely on scripture.
Peace,
DNP
Are you saying that the church has authority over and above scripture? Curious!
DNP is Catholic. That might give you an idea as to what he's saying.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 11:18:55 AM
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loco79
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Thanks for your replies. I was curious on the subject because i was going over some of my past notes that i take, in an effort to consolidate and realised i never answered a question i wrote down. The question I had asked myself was "How come Peter knew who jesus was and none of the others did? I am referring to Mt 16:14 or around that verse number, To me having the OT there, should have been more then enough evidence for all of the apostles to figure out who he was. And then i followed it up and realised that Paul was revealed to in the same manner Peter was:
Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Gal 1:11-12 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man: nor did I learn it but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
And how come when Paul had the scripture and was against christianity he could not see the light. It was only when God came to him directly. And finally how come the pharises had the scripture yet still did not know that Jesus was God."
I guess now comes the point when I answer my own question. Funny how things come to you the second time around. I realise that scripture is not the begining and nor is it the end, to me it as tool given to us, but it can only be helpfull if we are taught by the correct people. I used to think at one time all you need is the scripture, but i cant find that anywhere in the bible, nor does Jesus teach it. I am about to get off topic here a little bit, but it seems that we need more than scripture or Jesus wouldnt have instituted baptism, after all the bible cant baptise us, and even the need for Jesus himself to get baptised. If you really think about why would the saviour of the world need a man to baptise him. There are many directions we could go, but sometimes it seems so limiting to bind my understanding of christ and christianity to the bible. I know that he even says in the bible that all of the things he has done are too numerous to write down.
I think one thing that has opened my eyes to tradition along with scripture is ; one day my mother was cooking something, and I really wanted to learn how to make it and so i asked for the ingredients and she didnt know them. she told me she knew them when she started cooking, i replied and asked had anyone in her family ever written down the recipe and she said no. Soon after my grandfather died and I was just alone with my thoughts and was going over one of several volumes of picture albums and realised that these only give me a small glimpse into what an incredible life my grandfather had lived. And it really dawned on me when we were at my grandfathers wake and so many of his brothers and sisters were telling stories that i had never heard, or seen through the pictures. After these two moments in my life I asked myself if the same could be said for Jesus? And to me personally i say yes, and after finding scripture that backs up the importance of keeping tradition, it really hit home to me what tradition really was and why it is so important. To me sometimes just going off of what is written or documented about someone, doesnt really give the full picture of who or what the person was, and the documentation with tradition gives a clear and meaningfull picture that might otherwise be overlooked.
Well this came out longer than i expected and I really dont plan on going verse for verse on the topic of tradition and the bible alone, but i would like to thank you for responses and helping me answer my own question. Any furter comments about whatever are appreciated and will always be read with an open mind.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 1:23:58 PM
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Bluethread
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I lean toward the sola scritura camp, but what we have are a written representation of Adonai and His expectaions of us. This is not the totality of Adonai and His revelation. The written word tells us that we are use the whole council of Adonai. This includes personal revelation, discussion with others, experience, reason, and possibly othger factors alnog wityh the written word. I believe, the important thing is priority. One should follow the best verifiable source of revelation, knowing that we are going to be held personally responsible for our choices. Therefore, as an absolute, I do not think sola scriptura is supported by the Scriptures themselves.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 2:33:40 PM
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DougHorton
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There is plenty of scriptural support. It is the standard by which we test all teaching.
Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Revelation 2:2
`I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false...'
You may be interested in this article:
Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Really Biblical? by Tony Warren
This is one of the articles found under Sola Scriptura at monergism.com
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 4:10:22 PM
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colliefan
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For those of you who are Sola Scriptura, how do you treat verses to non-cannonical books (Book of Jasher, Book of Enoch, etc.)
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 5:00:46 PM
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DougHorton
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To follow the principle of sola scriptura does not mean that we do not recognize authority outside of the scripture, but that all authority is measured by the supreme authority, the Bible.
As for the non-canonical books, they are treated like any other literature outside of the Bible. Like modern books, some of them are very good with much we can learn. They simply are not scripture.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 6:02:31 PM
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Lurker
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This likely will end up being directed to a Catholic thread, but keep in mind that the Bible itself says that proper authority resides in the Church. It is the Church which is called the "pillar and foundation of the Truth."
Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to Peter, the one He founded His Church on. It seems to me that one should focus your efforts on figuring out which Church is the Church mentioned in the scriptures and then follow it's teachings as they are the pillar and foundation of the Truth. In my view that is the Catholic Church, however the Eastern Orthodox Church also has a strong compelling claim, as do the Oriental Orthodox. But there's several threads already devoted to discussing the intricacies of such views. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 6:09:25 PM
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DougHorton
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This thread is to provide scriptural support for sola scriptura, not to debate other issues.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 10:35:52 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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quote:
Are you saying that the church has authority over and above scripture? Curious!
Well, there was a Church before there was a Bible.
I hope this will help explain the relationship better than I can in my own words, it is from the Compendium CCC.
Compendium CCC
The Transmission of Divine Revelation
11. Why and in what way is divine revelation transmitted?
God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), that is, of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Christ must be proclaimed to all according to his own command, “Go forth and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19). And this is brought about by Apostolic Tradition.
12. What is Apostolic Tradition?Apostolic Tradition is the transmission of the message of Christ, brought about from the very beginnings of Christianity by means of preaching, bearing witness, institutions, worship, and inspired writings. The apostles transmitted all they received from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit to their successors, the bishops, and through them to all generations until the end of the world.
13. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.
14. What is the relationship between Tradition and Sacred Scripture?
Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ. They flow out of the same divine well-spring and together make up one sacred deposit of faith from which the Church derives her certainty about revelation.
15. To whom is the deposit of faith entrusted?
The Apostles entrusted the deposit of faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine revelation.
16. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?
The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.
17. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.
Sacred Scripture
18. Why does Sacred Scripture teach the truth?Because God himself is the author of Sacred Scripture. For this reason it is said to be inspired and to teach without error those truths which are necessary for our salvation. The Holy Spirit inspired the human authors who wrote what he wanted to teach us. The Christian faith, however, is not a “religion of the Book”, but of the Word of God – “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living” (Saint Bernard of Clairvaux).
19. How is Sacred Scripture to be read?
Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted with the help of the Holy Spirit and under the guidance of the Magisterium of the Church according to three criteria: 1) it must be read with attention to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture; 2) it must be read within the living Tradition of the Church; 3) it must be read with attention to the analogy of faith, that is, the inner harmony which exists among the truths of the faith themselves.
20. What is the Canon of Scripture?The Canon of Scripture is the complete list of the sacred writings which the Church has come to recognize through Apostolic Tradition. The Canon consists of 46 books of the Old Testament and 27 of the New.
21. What is the importance of the Old Testament for Christians?Christians venerate the Old Testament as the true word of God. All of the books of the Old Testament are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value. They bear witness to the divine pedagogy of God's saving love. They are written, above all, to prepare for the coming of Christ the Savior of the universe.
22. What importance does the New Testament have for Christians?The New Testament, whose central object is Jesus Christ, conveys to us the ultimate truth of divine Revelation. Within the New Testament the four Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are the heart of all the Scriptures because they are the principle witness to the life and teaching of Jesus. As such, they hold a unique place in the Church.
23. What is the unity that exists between the Old and the New Testaments?Scripture is one insofar as the Word of God is one. God’s plan of salvation is one, and the divine inspiration of both Testaments is one. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other.
24. What role does Sacred Scripture play in the life of the Church? Sacred Scripture gives support and vigor to the life of the Church. For the children of the Church, it is a confirmation of the faith, food for the soul and the fount of the spiritual life. Sacred Scripture is the soul of theology and of pastoral preaching. The Psalmist says that it is “a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105). The Church, therefore, exhorts all to read Sacred Scripture frequently because “ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” (Saint Jerome).
Peace,
DNP
< Message edited by Dona Nobis Pacem -- 6/19/2008 10:54:36 PM >
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 10:48:58 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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I see some verses posted here which are supposed to support the scripture alone argument, however I do not see a single one which does that.
Claiming that the Bible alone is the sole authority ironically is an un-Biblical concept.
What does the Bible itself call "the pillar and foundation of truth" ?
If the Bible were meant to be the sole authority;
Why didn't Jesus write any scripture?
Why did He commission the apostles to teach instead of writing scripture?
There is much more to discuss but I am getting ready to go oot for the weekend.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/19/2008 10:52:03 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
To follow the principle of sola scriptura does not mean that we do not recognize authority outside of the scripture, but that all authority is measured by the supreme authority, the Bible.
With this I agree. Some one explain sola scriptura to me as there is no authority outside of scripture.
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/20/2008 1:55:21 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
If the Bible were meant to be the sole authority;
God is the "sole" authority. The Bible -- the written Word of God -- is the "supreme" authority is all matters of Christian faith and practice. The description of "the church" as "the pillar and ground of truth" does not detract from this but rather establishes it, since the Scriptures must be the foundation of every church's teaching, and only when this is so does that church's teaching become authoritative. "Thus saith the LORD" is the fundamental principle.
quote:
Why didn't Jesus write any scripture?
As a matter of fact He did. Jesus is the eternal Word of God who is God (Jn. 1:1-3), and all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:16). All Scripture is theopneustos -- God-breathed -- and Christ revealed His truth to His prophets and apostles by the Holy Spirit. So Jesus "wrote" Scripture through men, but He also wrote the Ten Commandments on those stone tablets. And the complete Godhead is involved with Divine revelation.
quote:
Why did He commission the apostles to teach instead of writing scripture?
Actually He did commission the apostles to write Scripture (as well as speak it and teach it). See 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 3:15,16.
The issue is not whether there are "verses that support Sola Scriptura" (there are plenty). The entire Bible supports this concept.
The real issues are (a) Did God give us a written Divine revelation? (b) Did Christ recognize it at the Word of God and use it as such? (c) Did the apostles base their teaching and preaching on the OT Scriptures exclusively or did they also rely on rabbinic oral tradition or the apocryphal books? (d) Did Christ reject "the tradition of the elders" which is currently enshrined in the Talmud? (e) Did the early "Church Fathers" quote Scripture extensively in their writings, and did they recognize and acknowledge that the authority of the Scriptures was not comparable with their own writings? The answer to all of the above is "Yes".
Scripture is God's Word to mankind. Therefore nothing else on earth can equal its power, its authority, and its sufficiency (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Scripture versus that support Sola Scriptura - 6/20/2008 4:53:55 PM
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Bluethread
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The problem that appears to be arising is definitional. Each poster seems to be defining Sola Scriptura in a different way. Maybe we should get concensus on the defintion before proceeding.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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