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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 2:14:27 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
For the most part, that is what believers did during the 60s and early 70s, when prayer was removed and abortion became legally protected. Christians stayed away from and out of politics while the extreme left, agnostics, humanists, and atheists had their way. When we got back in, they were not a happy bunch, they thought that religion was a private matter to be kept out of real life. We have lost much ground and some believers would have us again leave the public arena.
IMO, you're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not the fault of the agnostics, humanists or atheists that parents stopped teaching and modeling Christian behaviors and worldviews to their children.
You may have misunderstood my intended point. I was placing the blame on evangelical Christians for our leaving the political arena to non-Christians and liberals.
BTW, I was born in the early 50s and we were taught biblical and family values. But politics was largely considered too worldly and corrupt to become involved if you were sincere about your... religion.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 2:26:57 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
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Absolutely true! We Christians abdicated so many of our rights during the 60s and 70s that, once they are gone, it's awfully hard to get them back. We need to band together, putting aside our minor differences (like what clothes to wear to church  ) and take our country back.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
We don't advocate a theocracy in the US, but the Church of the Un-Godly Secular Humanists advocate the elimination of Christianity from politics and everything else.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
There is a reason why our founding fathers did not establish America as some sort of theocracy. Why would Dobson and the Republicans think legislating faith and obedience to biblical teachings is possible or even practicle?
But a faith that is limited in application to an hour a week within the walls of a building is as worthless as no faith at all - if not more so.
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
For the most part, that is what believers did during the 60s and early 70s, when prayer was removed and abortion became legally protected. Christians stayed away from and out of politics while the extreme left, agnostics, humanists, and atheists had their way. When we got back in, they were not a happy bunch, they thought that religion was a private matter to be kept out of real life. We have lost much ground and some believers would have us again leave the public arena.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 2:43:30 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
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You hit the nail on the head, Jack and I'm glad you brought up the term "Democratic Republic." To be more precise, we are a Constitutional Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic
This is far different from the "democracy" that seems to be in vogue these days. A true democracy would very quickly turn into a "mob-ocracy" and be a totally useless form of government.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
A couple of thoughts.
On one level, Dobson is absolutely right - Christians shouldn't be required to make a 'secular' argument to support certain points of view, particularly when those point of view are intended to influence elections and ultimately the laws that govern us.
In an honest Democratic Republic, Christians should make their arguments and secularists their arguments, and Muslims their arguments, and in the end the faction that most convinces the greatest number of people to vote in favor of their party and proposals rules the day, until the next election. Indeed, that is the purpose of the entirety of the First Amendment.
And secular arguments aren't 'superior' to religious ones - indeed; in many cases they are horribly inferior. There is no secular argument for example demonstrating that people are endowed with certain inalienable rights. Had those writing the Declaration relied on 'secular' arguments, they could never have proffered such a notion. And while some might argue the writers of the Declaration were 'Deists', the point is that they still weren't secularists, and they made a religious argument.
So our country is derived from certain religiously inspired arguments, and Obama is ignorant for not realizing this, and Dobson is right for catching him on it.
That being said, there is no reason for a Christian not to make a non-religious argument if such a thing will convince sufficient numbers of people to support certain positions - there of course exist such arguments against abortion and homosexual marriage, and Christians should know how to employ them or forever be stuck in the political backwaters.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 3:00:56 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:
We Christians abdicated so many of our rights during the 60s and 70s that, once they are gone, it's awfully hard to get them back. We need to band together, putting aside our minor differences (like what clothes to wear to church ) and take our country back.
What rights were abdicated in the 60s and 70? The right to pray?; to come before the Lord? to assemble in worship? the right to live out our faith? Is anyone forcing church members to smoke, drink, engage in sexual immorality, have abortions, become homosexuals, not attend church, not love their neighbor, etc?
We don't need to take our country back (it was never our to begin with); we need to take our FAITH back.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 3:10:09 PM
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Evangel70
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quote:
You may have misunderstood my intended point. I was placing the blame on evangelical Christians for our leaving the political arena to non-Christians and liberals.
BTW, I was born in the early 50s and we were taught biblical and family values. But politics was largely considered too worldly and corrupt to become involved if you were sincere about your... religion.
My apologies for misunderstanding your point. Politics is a rough place for a Christian....it's like going into a bar trying to preach sobriety and not understanding why the bar patrons don't agree with you. What Christians seem to forget is that our the ability to turn our society around through the message of the gospel is so much stronger and much more effective than any legislation a politican can come up with.
Imagine what Washington would be like if the majority of Congress were raised with Christian values AND they lived out their faith! We would have a totally different political climate.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 3:52:19 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
We Christians abdicated so many of our rights during the 60s and 70s that, once they are gone, it's awfully hard to get them back. We need to band together, putting aside our minor differences (like what clothes to wear to church ) and take our country back.
What rights were abdicated in the 60s and 70? The right to pray?; to come before the Lord? to assemble in worship? the right to live out our faith? Is anyone forcing church members to smoke, drink, engage in sexual immorality, have abortions, become homosexuals, not attend church, not love their neighbor, etc?
We don't need to take our country back (it was never our to begin with); we need to take our FAITH back.
Just to name a few:
When I went to school through 12th grade, the Bible was read in classes by teachers. Teachers prayed for students out loud without penalty. Every sporting event was opened by prayer by local ministers, teachers, or anyone asked to do so. I could carry a Bible to class - the Gideons even gave away Bibles at school in classes. I even remember discussing creation vs evolution where the evolutionist teacher was in the minority and she was defensive rather than assertive (asking that we accepted her position didn't contradict Genesis, just was a different understanding). Abortion was a felony. Time was divided by BC & AD, not BCE & CE.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 3:58:09 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1587
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice.
In a nutshell, I think Obama is dead-on here. No one religious faith or philosophy should corner the market as the moral or political authority on any issue - for example, evangelical Christians being the last (and loudest) word on abortion rights when not every American is a Christian, much less evangelical.
quote:
So our country is derived from certain religiously inspired arguments, and Obama is ignorant for not realizing this, and Dobson is right for catching him on it.
I must disagree, Jack. Religious beliefs may have indeed played a role in the constitution's ratification, but not exclusively. Despite what Bush thinks, the notion of human liberty is not a divine one. It is a concept that people give to themselves - often after paying a heavy price in bloodshed.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 4:33:09 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:
Just to name a few:
When I went to school through 12th grade, the Bible was read in classes by teachers. Teachers prayed for students out loud without penalty. Every sporting event was opened by prayer by local ministers, teachers, or anyone asked to do so. I could carry a Bible to class - the Gideons even gave away Bibles at school in classes. I even remember discussing creation vs evolution where the evolutionist teacher was in the minority and she was defensive rather than assertive (asking that we accepted her position didn't contradict Genesis, just was a different understanding). Abortion was a felony. Time was divided by BC & AD, not BCE & CE.
Unfortunately, we now live in a global society and not every teacher is a born-again Christian. Would you be comfortable with your child's 3rd grade teacher praying out loud to Allah or Bali or Krishna? Would you like your high schooler to be required to memorize part of the Koran or some Wiccan text? How about going to a baseball game and having the announcer ask the blessings of the moon goddess upon the game?? If you allow one religion access to secular venues, you have to give all sorts of beliefs access.
quote:
Abortion was a felony.
My generation grew up with legal abortion, yet many of us were still taught it is wrong. Were teenage girls routinely thrown in jail for having abortions?
< Message edited by Evangel70 -- 6/24/2008 4:41:02 PM >
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 9:04:23 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
So our country is derived from certain religiously inspired arguments, and Obama is ignorant for not realizing this, and Dobson is right for catching him on it.
...I'm guessing you didn't read the entire speech:
Excerpt:
In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that.
But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 9:16:37 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
This is something that I think captures my views pretty well on religion. I'd like to think this roughly represents the view that most people had back in the 1950s- before liberalism and religious conservatism. Much of our country's morality is derived from the Judeo-Christian religion, and people should be free to wear their faith on their sleeves if they want, but it's difficult to imagine religion directing how our government behaves.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 12:40:22 AM
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scutus
Posts: 352
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
We Christians abdicated so many of our rights during the 60s and 70s that, once they are gone, it's awfully hard to get them back. We need to band together, putting aside our minor differences (like what clothes to wear to church ) and take our country back.
What rights were abdicated in the 60s and 70? The right to pray?; to come before the Lord? to assemble in worship? the right to live out our faith? Is anyone forcing church members to smoke, drink, engage in sexual immorality, have abortions, become homosexuals, not attend church, not love their neighbor, etc?
We don't need to take our country back (it was never our to begin with); we need to take our FAITH back.
Just to name a few:
When I went to school through 12th grade, the Bible was read in classes by teachers. Teachers prayed for students out loud without penalty. Every sporting event was opened by prayer by local ministers, teachers, or anyone asked to do so. I could carry a Bible to class - the Gideons even gave away Bibles at school in classes. I even remember discussing creation vs evolution where the evolutionist teacher was in the minority and she was defensive rather than assertive (asking that we accepted her position didn't contradict Genesis, just was a different understanding). Abortion was a felony. Time was divided by BC & AD, not BCE & CE.
There's a very good reason why some of these are no longer done.
_____________________________
Suo enim quisque studio maxime ducitur.
—Cicero, De Finibus, 5.5
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 5:04:40 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 711
Joined: 4/15/2005
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So basically, here's our choices as Christians who want others to support our views and adopt our values:
We can take the position that America is a Christian nation, period. While Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, etc. are "welcome" here, we have no obligation to appease them, and our bible, old testament and new, is a legitimate authoritative document which can be used to justify whatever position we choose to take on an issue. Thus, since we have declared ourselves a Christian nation, not a theocracy, mind you, but a Christian nation, we have no obligation to consider any tenet of any other religion in making legislative decisions, nor are we obligated to justify to other religions and "cults" the reasoning behind these decisions other than, "thus sayeth the Lord." OUR Lord.
In other words, if they don't choose to be Christians, while they're in our country, we want laws passed that will make them behave like Christians, or else. If they don't like it, they can leave. Of course these people, being lost, will split hell wide open when they die, but that's not the priority right now. In order to be a Christian nation, we must LOOK like a Christian nation and that means our laws must reflect Christian values.
We can depend on our politcal system and work hard to elect politicians who support our views and have our values, and hope they won't compromise these once elected for the sake of political expediency. We can hope they appoint judges, once the more liberal (i.e. non-Christian) judges die or resign, that will support our views.
Or...
We can
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:18)
Witness.
Lead the lost to the Lord.
Invite them to church.
Disciple them.
Attend to their other needs if you're able.
Be a friend. Show love.
If every Christian did their Christian duty as outlined in the Great Commission and throughout God's Word, maybe one day we'll truly be a Christian nation. And not just a country of people who are forced to act like Christians.
- Julius
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 9:43:06 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 220
Status: offline
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quote:
Witness.
Lead the lost to the Lord.
Invite them to church.
Disciple them.
Attend to their other needs if you're able.
Be a friend. Show love.
If every Christian did their Christian duty as outlined in the Great Commission and throughout God's Word, maybe one day we'll truly be a Christian nation. And not just a country of people who are forced to act like Christians.
...wow, you forgot how high you dress should be, what internet sites you should see, whether to play cards, dance,smoke, drink,chew, etc., or not. Isn't that in the Great Comission, too?  (hey that rhymes!)
This is what happens when we drift from the foundation(for the US, it's The Constitution, for me individually, it's the Bible). Next we begin to decide what's important(depending on who's ox is being gored), and bumper-sticker-slogan our way thru life.
I seen Dobson on FOX last night. I shuddered every time the caption below the screen read "Christian Leader"(yikes!)
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 10:30:12 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1524
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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Excellent post Julius.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 11:00:30 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scutus
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
We Christians abdicated so many of our rights during the 60s and 70s that, once they are gone, it's awfully hard to get them back. We need to band together, putting aside our minor differences (like what clothes to wear to church ) and take our country back.
What rights were abdicated in the 60s and 70? The right to pray?; to come before the Lord? to assemble in worship? the right to live out our faith? Is anyone forcing church members to smoke, drink, engage in sexual immorality, have abortions, become homosexuals, not attend church, not love their neighbor, etc?
We don't need to take our country back (it was never our to begin with); we need to take our FAITH back.
Just to name a few:
When I went to school through 12th grade, the Bible was read in classes by teachers. Teachers prayed for students out loud without penalty. Every sporting event was opened by prayer by local ministers, teachers, or anyone asked to do so. I could carry a Bible to class - the Gideons even gave away Bibles at school in classes. I even remember discussing creation vs evolution where the evolutionist teacher was in the minority and she was defensive rather than assertive (asking that we accepted her position didn't contradict Genesis, just was a different understanding). Abortion was a felony. Time was divided by BC & AD, not BCE & CE.
There's a very good reason why some of these are no longer done.
Yeah, Christians backed down to the intimidating few who claim morality cannot be legislated - and their morality was then legislated.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 11:08:20 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
So basically, here's our choices as Christians who want others to support our views and adopt our values:
We can take the position that America is a Christian nation, period. While Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, etc. are "welcome" here, we have no obligation to appease them, and our bible, old testament and new, is a legitimate authoritative document which can be used to justify whatever position we choose to take on an issue. Thus, since we have declared ourselves a Christian nation, not a theocracy, mind you, but a Christian nation, we have no obligation to consider any tenet of any other religion in making legislative decisions, nor are we obligated to justify to other religions and "cults" the reasoning behind these decisions other than, "thus sayeth the Lord." OUR Lord.
In other words, if they don't choose to be Christians, while they're in our country, we want laws passed that will make them behave like Christians, or else. If they don't like it, they can leave. Of course these people, being lost, will split hell wide open when they die, but that's not the priority right now. In order to be a Christian nation, we must LOOK like a Christian nation and that means our laws must reflect Christian values.
We can depend on our politcal system and work hard to elect politicians who support our views and have our values, and hope they won't compromise these once elected for the sake of political expediency. We can hope they appoint judges, once the more liberal (i.e. non-Christian) judges die or resign, that will support our views.
Or...
We can
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:18)
Witness.
Lead the lost to the Lord.
Invite them to church.
Disciple them.
Attend to their other needs if you're able.
Be a friend. Show love.
If every Christian did their Christian duty as outlined in the Great Commission and throughout God's Word, maybe one day we'll truly be a Christian nation. And not just a country of people who are forced to act like Christians.
- Julius
Just for my edification, are you saying we should aim our laws to the lowest common denominator and hope that we'll eventually win all the Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, etc. and... what, change the laws to fit the new reality?
Sounds sweet and oh so PC, but its an awful lot like what happened when Christians abdicated our role in American politics.
We either steer the morality via law toward Christian values or we capitulate and let the lost steer the laws the way of the world. We simply become unsalty salt and hide our light under a bushel.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 11:52:34 AM
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Evangel70
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Yeah, Christians backed down to the intimidating few who claim morality cannot be legislated - and their morality was then legislated.
Perhaps, I'm simply not getting your point. How exactly are the lost legislating morality? For example, smoking, drinking, pornography, engaging in sexual immorality, abortion, adultery, etc. are all legal in this country, yet I, as a Christian, don't feel COMPELLED to engage in any of this behavior simply because the government allows me to. We all know things like murder and rape and stealing are inherently wrong, even if we didn't have laws on the books "legislating" such behavior. Are you claiming that without laws to tell us how to ACT like Christians, we would not have the ability to LIVE as Christians?
quote:
We either steer the morality via law toward Christian values or we capitulate and let the lost steer the laws the way of the world. We simply become unsalty salt and hide our light under a bushel.
How exactly would we go about legislating obedience to the Word of God; love for one's neighbor; thinking of others as bether than yourself; turning away from pride and selfishness, etc.....or are those not the Christian "values" you had in mind? Who gets to decide what parts of the bible to legislate or not?
< Message edited by Evangel70 -- 6/25/2008 12:01:57 PM >
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 12:06:29 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Are you claiming that without laws to tell us how to ACT like Christians, we would not have the ability to LIVE as Christians?
No. I'm saying that Christians (some, anyway) are being restricted in the free exercise of our faith and that some things have become legal that once wasn't. In fat, some of your list includes things that were illegal when I was growing up: pornography, engaging in sexual immorality, abortion, adultery. Also sodomy.
Why is that a problem with me?
For one thing, it exposes many people to debilitating sin with the government's approval. That makes us spiritually culpable. Unlike the days of kings, this country is governed by "we the people," so when God holds it accountable, He is hold each of us to the point we participate in the process.
I guess it's hard to appreciate a clean home if you grow up in a cesspool. But there are a lot of things accepted as normal today that was not the case just a few decades ago. I prefer to not be exposed to or have others exposed to moral filth when it can be controlled.
And despite the PC claims to the contrary, morality is always legislated by someone, either by the morally upright or the morally corrupt. I happen to think that nobody suffers when the morally upright write the laws.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 12:09:18 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
How exactly would we go about legislating obedience to the Word of God; love for one's neighbor; thinking of others as bether than yourself; turning away from pride and selfishness, etc.....or are those not the Christian "values" you had in mind? Who gets to decide what parts of the bible to legislate or not?
Tell me, does making it illegal to hold up a bank at gunpoint prevent all armed robberies of banks?
If the answer is no, then why bother legislating that people should not do so? The answer to that applies to all laws.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 12:15:26 PM
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