RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/08) in Nevada.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 11:23:21 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
In Rev, the Church is not mentioned after Ch 4 Rev (till all is fulfilled). In Rev, John is told to write what is (Ch 2, 3), what was (Ch 1), and what is to come (Ch 4 - 22).
Going on a one word interpretation,quote:
What's a one word interpretation? you will miss that the whole Church is IN the Great Multitude, but you won't see it because you are looking so myopically on a single word quote:
I 'DIVIDE' the word II Tim 2 15.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
The first thing that is described Rev ch4 v 1, is the trumpet (also I Cor 15:52 'last trump, trumpet'; I Thes 4:16 trump of God) [Rapture].
Your first statement is incorrect.quote:
I'm in good company being incorrect.See Schofield
The "trumpet" of chapter 4 is figurative. quote:
Anything else figurative in the bible? (You're focusing too closely quote:
TOO CLOSELY??? I 'DIVIDE' the word II Tim 2 15. on every single word here and missing the forest for the trees.)
Furthermore, you have a non sequitur. quote:
So does Schofield It does not follow that the single word "trumpet" in Ch 4 is the Last Trumpet.
In addition to that - IF John was intimating that this is the Church being called up - THEN why did he use the SINGLE form of "you?" quote:
Maybe cause He's talking to John? The saints are in heaven at this time - none of which are worthy to perform a particular task. ch 5 vv1-4
In Revelation chapter 7, we find with the sixth Seal that it begins the Day of the Lord with its signature Sun/moon/star event. AFTER that - a Great Multitude shows up in Heaven. quote:
Yes we do! The saints of the GREAT TRIBULATION!!! Rev 7 v 14.
Focusing too closely on a single word you say huh?
You know changing one single word - an article, from definite [the] to indefinite [a] is what condemns JW's to hell.
One CANNOT focus TOO CLOSELY on single words. You should keep that in mind. Instead of fringe insults - myopic, laughable, etc...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 12:20:43 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
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Let's see, you rebut my arguments in circular fashion by saying John Darby and the Schofield Bible support the position when you get your position from them.
I.E., myopic just describes putting a single word like "church" under the microscope and saying because that same word is not used later in the book of Revelation, that the Church is not in the one 'seven.'
It is on the flimsiest grounds that you say the Church is already in Heaven based on Rev 5:4. Nothing of the sort is proved. John enumerates all he sees in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence, and he does not describe the Church as being present until after the sixth Seal is broken.
Pointing to Rev 5:4, and 4:1 are some of the examples Pre-Trib uses to "show" the Church is in Heaven before the one 'seven.' However, all their examples are tentative and a stretch of the original language. Pre-Trib ignores the Olivet Discourse's literal and plain order which is key to sequencing the Seals of Revelation to the seventy-sevens of Daniel and instead grasps for straws to support its belief.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 7/6/2008 2:30:05 PM >
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 12:04:01 AM
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5times
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The false christ is not here on earth at this time, he is held in heaven until God gives the command for him and his angels to be kicked out upon the earth at the 5th & 6th trump to decieve the ones that haven't studied his word .See scriptures below
Revelation 12
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 9
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
If you have Gods truth in your forehead you don't have to worry about getting stung with the lies from satan and his followers.Study God's word, it will save your life!
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 12:37:52 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
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From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Important Message
Some one claims to know antiChrist is in Nevada, and you post up a troll reference?
Shame...
God created the OP, and everyone else for that matter, in His/God's own image, and you call him a troll?
Isn't that the same as calling God a troll?
Shame...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 1:04:25 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Let's see, you rebut my arguments in circular fashion by saying John Darby and the Schofield Bible support the position when you get your position from them.
quote:
[Me] No let's DON'T see. I have no 'position'. I have conviction from the Holy Spirit. I get nothing from ANY man, except what man can verify with other Scripture. Some men's iron sharpens my own iron Ps 27. And you have surely sharpened mine (and when it's already sharp, as is mine, it's tough to make it sharper)
at same word is not used later in the book of Revelation, that the Church is not in the one 'seven.'
It is on the flimsiest grounds that you say the Church is already in Heaven based on Rev 5:4. quote:
[ME] Who are the 'men' (not the elders, but the MEN) in heaven, not fit to open the book??? Be VERY careful how you answer that, for the Greek word (Strong's index 3762) is inclusive of FEMININE. Of all the [raptured] men [and women saints in heaven at that moment], none were worthy to open the book.
Nothing of the sort is proved. quote:
[ME] Nah - that's not proof either is it? Again... be VERY careful how you answer.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 8:53:55 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 186
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From: The Land of Graham
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CWB
I am so glad you and sinner-saint had this discussion. But...
You two are much too proud. I have been on the fence over pre- mid- post Trib this for some years. I am most convinced by sinner-saint though. Do not be so proud to think you are so sharp! The point to sharpening is that we are DULL. Dull could mean dumb. When we all get home I think we are all going to be doing the V8 forehead slap first thing! LOL We are all brute beasts saved by a gracious God. You know that, I know. God bless you.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 8:56:49 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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I happen to agree, Dan. I think the point to which prophecy is argued is disappointing to God.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 9:01:18 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
Joined: 10/5/2006
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cwb: Learn how to use the quote function. Your posts are nearly unreadable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Let's see, you rebut my arguments in circular fashion by saying John Darby and the Schofield Bible support the position when you get your position from them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
No let's DON'T see. I have no 'position'. I have conviction from the Holy Spirit.
THIS is the "I am right because the Holy Spirit told me..." argument.
Sorry, it doesn't hold. Of all the Christians out there and all the varied beliefs about the end-times - we ALL have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we are right.
Howsomevercomma - our positions are all mutually exclusive! So we all can't be right! Indeed, we can all be wrong, but only one of the various ways to order the Rapture can be right, or, as others think - there might not even BE a Rapture!
You are a John Darby, Schofield Bible, Pre-Trib, Dispensationalist. That is not an insult, it's just where you're coming from and what you have openly espoused. Some Christians insist that some or all of these attributes are heretical. I don't. But you are part of a known group.
So you're a John Darby kind-of-guy and you rebut my argument by saying you have the Schofield Bible and you say that's not circular? Please...
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
And you have surely sharpened mine (and when it's already sharp, as is mine, it's tough to make it sharper)
Puh-lease! 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
It is on the flimsiest grounds that you say the Church is already in Heaven based on Rev 5:4.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Who are the 'men' (not the elders, but the MEN) in heaven, not fit to open the book??? Be VERY careful how you answer that, for the Greek word (Strong's index 3762) is inclusive of FEMININE. Of all the [raptured] men [and women saints in heaven at that moment], none were worthy to open the book.
This is where, if I let your argument stand, some would think you were right - but you're making a very grave error here with the Word.
Your one-word interpretation based on oudeis, which while in the masculine, singular, nominative can include the feminine, references NOT the Elders (whom Pre-Trib tries to say "represents" the Church... another time their literal interpretations have to be stretched from 24 to billions...) but oudeis in 5:4 is in reference to EVERYBODY from 5:3!
3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.
And you tell me to be VERY careful? My friend, we should take better care of God's Word and not be so quick to try and make it say what we want it to say that we take things out of context, ignore other passages and stretch the Bible to fit our eschatology.
So you have very little evidence to go by, and while scoffing that it is "not proof" which is a MUCH higher standard that perhaps none of us will attain in arguing about eschatology straight from the Bible, you have demonstrated the weakness of the Pre-Trib position yet again.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 9:34:07 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 7:28:54 PM
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naomigo
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quote:
Paul concludes his sequence of: rebellion - anti-Christ revealed - Christ’s coming - gathering; as having an end where the anti-Christ is destroyed. This is same ultimate consequence is indicated in Daniel 9:27 and 11:45. Jesus speaks the same way assuring His audience of the end in Matthew 24:14. And like Jesus’ continuation in the Olivet Discourse with the very next verse, Paul expounds on the nature of the anti-Christ’s actions
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 7:35:28 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Why must we insist that caring compassionate Christians who come to different conclusions are swayed by spirits?
If we turn our minds, which God gave us and implores us to use to read and understand, and by our limited understanding come to think one way or another - is it really a matter of being led or misled by the Holy Spirit?
God gave us free will to decide on how we would be. I see no reason why God doesn't let us flounder along trying to discern wisdom from prophecy. I think God will answer prayer, but not all prayers get answered.
In addition, each of us has gifts we received from God. We are not all equal in our gifts. That does not affect our salvation, but it may have an impact upon how well we approach the hardest subject of all in the Bible: end-time prophecy.
I am analytical. I use a new paradigm in Bible interpretation: a sequence-of-events approach which has yielded a consistent picture of the end-times which comes under the Pre-Wrath category of eschatology.
I think I am on the right track. I know I have some mistakes in my eschatology, but I don't know where they are. I am not going to base my life upon my eschatology, but I will act upon it when I am convinced the one 'seven' has begun.
The important part for each of us in leading a Christian life is to live each day as if it were going to be our last. All we have is today. Tomorrow will take care of itself as Jesus said, and that is wisdom indeed.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 7:36:36 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Welcome to the perpetual debate naomigo!
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/7/2008 7:56:09 PM
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naomigo
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thank you. and i liked what you just wrote..
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/10/2008 2:10:44 AM
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MrFribbles
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cwb, I don't think that's an insult... The fact is, certain Christians believe the same things, and to make things easier, these groups receive names. Nobody implied you weren't a Christian, they just tried to associate your particular Christian belief with a certain title. By way of example, if I say someone is a brain surgeon, I am not saying they're not a doctor - I'm just saying they're a certain type of doctor.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/10/2008 3:18:05 AM
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TheBibleTRUTH
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I'm going to tackle this and try to explain this to you as easily and as plain as I possibly can.
First, there is a big misconception about anti-christs.
I John 2:18
18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Wow, this verse says that even now there are many antichrists. There can't be just one antichrist because this verse states clearly that there are many and that they are already on this Earth. Then what is an antichrist? Just keep reading down in verse 22.
I John 2:22
22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Anyone who denies the Christ is an antichrist! That explains it very plainly and simply.
Now there is something that resembles "the antichrist", but what it's actually called is the Son of Perdition in Thessalonians.
II Thessalonians 2:3-4
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This is the closest thing to "the antichrist" we have. But there is another truth in verse 3 that should be of comfort.
3) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,..."
Now what does this mean, a falling away first? A better translation for "a falling away" is a departure. And the departure it is talking about is all the believers meeting Christ in the air. Notice the time also in verse 3. Because it says, "... a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed..." There is time between the falling away and that the man of sin be revealed. So the Son of Perdition will not be revealed until after the departure of the believers on this Earth.
I can also say this for certain because if there was a Son of Perdition on this Earth now, he would have no power against believers. I will back this up!
Romans 8:28-32
28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, th\em he also glorified.
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
If God is behind us who can be against us?
Romans 8:37
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
II Corinthians 1:10
10) Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
He will and does deliver us.
Ephesians 1:19-23
19) And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Christ's name is above all names, principalities, powers, mights, and dominions. This includes Satan himself.
Philippians 1:28
28) And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Do not be afraid of your adversaries, for they are already conquered by Christ and what he did for us.
Philippians 2:9-11
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Everything bows to the name of Jesus Christ. Anything under the Earth must bow to his name. So if there was a Son of Perdition on Earth. He would be utterly powerless to the believer who use the name of Jesus Christ against him. He must come after we are gone, or it would be pretty bad for him.
Colossians 1:13
13) Who (God) hat delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
II Timothy 4:18
18) And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Wow! You are delivered from every, every, every, all, every, evil work. This includes the things that the Son of Perdition would bring. Also you are preserved until the heavenly kingdom. You have complete dominion over him!
James 4:7
7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he WILL flee from you.
It doesn't say he will hang around and bug you further. It says he will flee from you. This is the same for the Son of Perdition as well. The devil would not send his Son of Perdition into a world where he would be defeated when he tried to do his dirty work. The devil is cunning and knows he must send him after we are gone. This is the only way he would be able to spread his darkness.
There are many many more verses I could bring up. But I feel I've done this topic justice. I know this is contrary to what a lot of people teach about "the antichrist," but I challenge you to keep an open mind and to think about it. Go to God and seek out the truth. You must understand that you have more power than you give yourself.
God Bless!
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/10/2008 9:28:04 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
cwb, I don't think that's an insult... The fact is, certain Christians believe the same things, and to make things easier, these groups receive names. Nobody implied you weren't a Christian, they just tried to associate your particular Christian belief with a certain title. By way of example, if I say someone is a brain surgeon, I am not saying they're not a doctor - I'm just saying they're a certain type of doctor.
If you're not insulted by such phrases, that's fine. Normally, I wouldn't be either, by such 'compartmentalizations'.
But when it's a pattern, accompanied with borderline insults in addition, I don't care for that. Jesus doesn't do it, I don't do it, and none should do it. You may call YOURSELF anything you want. Paul (the Holy Spirit) criticized the Corinthians for it. If you don't agree with someone's doctrine, you ASK what their interpretation of particular verses is - you don't alienate. Read my posts carefully, and you'll notice that's how I engage. And, you'll notice 'alienation' of others' doctrine on another's part.
ss - you said the trumpet was figurative. I asked if you'd give some examples of other things in the Word that are figurative.
I asked you also if Paul's 2nd letter to Thess was only for those Christians, and not for us Christians today. Do you believe any other parts of the bible are not directed at us today? No books of the NT have my (or your) name at the beginning!!! Remember Jesus' words: Man shall live by every Word from the mouth of God (maybe that's figurative to you?).
@bibletruth: are you believing there is no specific antiChrist? (to get back on thread topic)
I'm not seeing your explanation of who the Wicked One is. I do see your references to 'an' antiChrist. Changing or omitting an article from definite to indefinite (not necessarily THAT one can in the wrong spot condemn one to Hell. For example, JW's change John 1:1 to read "... the Word was with [a] God. VERY bad! The Holy Spirit within would reveal that error. Another example is 'an' angel of the Lord, vs 'the' angel of the Lord (Lord himself). Yet another that we discuss in this thread is tribulations', vs. 'the Great Tribulation'.
Some errors I do not believe carry the same penalty as others, but you must focus on EVERY single word in the bible. Some one else here said to not do that. NOT good! Jesus said EVERY Word! Mt 4:4. Just as protein, molecules, and atoms are incorporated into our flesh, so is every single little word of the Word of God incorporated into our corporeal spirit - it feeds it from a seed; first milk, then meat (1/2 dozen NT spiritual milk/meat references). Divide the Word II Tim 2 v 15.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/10/2008 | | | |
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), about Scriptural interpretation - NEVER. You should be convinced by the Spirit within. Man can point you to verses, and cross-reference verses for confirmation, but you must not allow yourself to be swayed by ANY man's words. 
