Protecting Our Children (Full Version)

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pablobee -> Protecting Our Children (6/24/2008 11:21:59 PM)

Many public school districts and systems are being influenced by homosexual activism. If you, as parents, are concerned about what your children are being taught in school the following link may be of help.

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Kath -> RE: Protecting Our Children (6/25/2008 12:10:48 AM)

Moving from Public/Private School to Parenting.

PPS is to discuss issues in your own community.

Sincerely
Kath
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maverickmom -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 9:38:31 AM)

wow
thats really radical
I may live to regret this, but what do you allow schools to teach children.
My main concern is that no matter how school officials may respond to this, you do not have a clause for things that can happen that the school may not have any control over.
I guess in that case you should add a clause to this paper that gives you permission to sue the solar system.




shadowspring -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 2:08:10 PM)

I didn't see anything radical about it at all. It's very issue-specific. I would definitely sign it if my kids were in elementary/middle public school.

By the time they are in high school they should be well-versed in God's righteous and loving plan for human sexuality, and able to recognize and resist erroneous arguments to the contrary.




Jenny-Fair -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 2:15:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maverickmom

wow
thats really radical
I may live to regret this, but what do you allow schools to teach children.
My main concern is that no matter how school officials may respond to this, you do not have a clause for things that can happen that the school may not have any control over.
I guess in that case you should add a clause to this paper that gives you permission to sue the solar system.

Radical is extrapolating 'I want to avoid this single thing' into 'I want to sue the solar system if anyone does anything I may choose to disapprove of in the future'.

Maverickmom, do you believe parents have the right to say no to school services?




stampinlady -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 5:56:48 PM)

quote:

By the time they are in high school they should be well-versed in God's righteous and loving plan for human sexuality, and able to recognize and resist erroneous arguments to the contrary.


Very true.




Jenny-Fair -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 6:01:13 PM)

Just because they 'should be' doesn't mean all of them are. Children aren't all the same, and for some, the guidance has to last a bit longer.

Besides, it's like swearing--you may not swear, but the longer you are around it, the more likely you will be surprised by what comes out of your mouth one of these days.




zoebob -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/18/2008 6:56:22 PM)

I like the form although they misspelled heterosexuality




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 1:14:18 PM)

Anyone who thinks they have any parental rights regarding what their children are being taught or exposed to in school ought to read the federal court ruling partially quoted here. If you think you have a right to direct the education of your children, that right only applies if the child is not in public school. The document that is linked in the op would not be worth the paper it is printed on.

For the complete document from which the following quotes have been taken Click Link here. This is from a ruling from the 9 th circuit court regarding parental lack of rights and the right of the school to teach anything they think children ought to know, whether it goes against parents religious beliefs or not.


quote:

Indeed parents “do not have a fundamental [due process] right generally to direct how a public school teaches their child.” Id.(quoting Blau v. Fort Thomas Pub. Sch. Dist., 401 F.3d381, 395 (6th Cir. 2005)). That is the central holding of our opinion and no party interested in this case, including Appellants and amici, has cited any authority holding otherwise.


AND

quote:

Our opinion is straightforward and dutifully applies Supreme Court and circuit court precedent. It holds simply, as other courts have held, that parents of public school children are not possessed of a constitutional right, either under the Substantive Due Process Clause or the related right to privacy, to restrict the public schools from providing information on the subject of sex. No federal court has ever found such a right in the Substantive Due Process Clause of the Constitution or in the right to privacy. To hold otherwise would misperceive the nature of the constitutional right at issue.


AND

quote:


Making intimate decisions and controlling the state’s dissemination of information regarding intimate matters are two entirely different subjects. With respect to the latter, no information of a private nature – indeed no information at all – regarding any individual was disseminated. Moreover, no constitutional provision prohibits the dissemination of general information on subject of public interest to children or to adults (unless it is the Establishment or the Treason Clause). Thus the right of the parents “to control the upbringing of their children by introducing them to matters of and relating to sex in accordance with their personal and religious values and beliefs” – the right to privacy here asserted – does not entitle them to prohibit public schools from providing students with information that the schools deem to be educationally appropriate.



In other words, the public school can teach anything they want to the children under their authority, including any kind of sexual information, at any age and the parents cannot do a thing about it. It doesn’t matter if you send the school a document telling not to teach your child about sex. They may keep the document on file, just to be aware of the religious fanatics in their midst, but it won’t give your child any protection. When a parent puts a child into the public school, the parents give their children over to the school to be taught whatever the schools deem appropriate, as long as they don’t teach the children anything religious or treasonous.

If you don’t want your children learning this stuff in their school either don’t send them to the public school or make sure you have them in a school that has policies in place prohibiting the teaching of sexual matters in the school, then be vigilant in watching to make sure it isn’t happening. Unfortunately, you probably wouldn’t find out about it until after the fact.




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 1:53:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maverickmom

wow
thats really radical
I may live to regret this, but what do you allow schools to teach children.
My main concern is that no matter how school officials may respond to this, you do not have a clause for things that can happen that the school may not have any control over.
I guess in that case you should add a clause to this paper that gives you permission to sue the solar system.

What is radical about it?
The document is not regarding what a student hears in school from other children. It is about what is being taught in the school.
Sue the solar system? That is off topic and ridiculous, but from your statement "I may live to regret this" you already know that and didn't think it important enough to not post things that you deem inflammatory.
From what you have written here and in other threads, it appears that you think the schools know what is best for the children and should be allowed free reign in teaching whatever they want. You must be very pleased with the ruling by the 9th circuit court.




Auben -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:06:43 PM)

quote:

In other words, the public school can teach anything they want to the children under their authority, including any kind of sexual information, at any age and the parents cannot do a thing about it.


The bolded statement is not supported by the above quotes. You make a leap or supposition.

The public school system has control over how children are taught. The method, the means. The public school system is in control of passing out sexual information without being open to litigous action from parents.

However, when and how sex is taught is fair game through the school board, superintendent, teachers and other proper channels. There's also another law (or at least there was in the '90s in my state) which allows parents to remove their children from health/sex education classes and gym classes if their church deems those inappropriate. My father chose to opt us out of those classes and the principal resisted so he had to take it to the superintendant who approved it.

These laws protect the school system from 'after the fact' lawsuits from parents. Most schools go out of their way to inform parents of sexual information being addressed (signed forms, school meetings), if only because sex is a hot topic which can lead to many complaints and disruption of staff schedules to handle it.




bzirk -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:11:09 PM)

Thank you, Cynthia. I was about to post Fields v. Palmdale before I read the whole thread. [8D]

Although that ruling is in the ninth, it is now a precedent along with some other lovely laws that abrogate parental rights, and it's just waiting for someone to use it to further erode those rights.

What we forget is that people in power tend to seize more power. It's human frailty (a euphemism for sin nature), and no matter how well written the Constitution may be, it's not God and therefore can't overcome the human failty of the inclination for power/control. Oh of course the schools would only exercise that power in the best interests of the children. [&:] Frankly, that "for the children" demeanor is the most self-righteous thing going in this country. Bible thumpers you say? No, it's schools with this idea of righting all wrongs or a lot of them anyway. That is so entrenched in the public schools that teachers can't teach as much as they should. Too many of them spend time on social engineering.




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:11:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auben

quote:

In other words, the public school can teach anything they want to the children under their authority, including any kind of sexual information, at any age and the parents cannot do a thing about it.


The bolded statement is not supported by the above quotes. You make a leap or supposition.

The public school system has control over how children are taught. The method, the means. The public school system is in control of passing out sexual information without being open to litigous action from parents.

quote:

Moreover, no constitutional provision prohibits the dissemination of general information on subject of public interest to children or to adults (unless it is the Establishment or the Treason Clause).

As long as it's not religious or treasonous, the school can disseminate anything they think may be of public interest to children. I didn't make this up. That's what the ruling says. If the schools want to pass out sexual information to the children, they can do that without (or against) parental wishes.




Auben -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:25:13 PM)

After reading the apellate decision my conclusion is not that parents are denied the right to choose their child's education but that parents are denied the right to change, subtract, or otherwise manipulate the school's curriculum through the court system or through complaint. In order to do so they must go through the proper channels.

Furthermore, the plaintives were informed beforehand and signed permission slips for the survey. They were not uninformed, nor were the students forced to read them. Their was always an ability to opt out and the decision does not take away the parents' ability to refuse certain services for their child.




shadowspring -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:32:12 PM)

quote:

After reading the apellate decision my conclusion is not that parents are denied the right to choose their child's education


No, they could home school or choose a private school, but other that that they have no choice.

Parents have NO say in what their children will be taught while said children are on school property.




zoebob -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:34:27 PM)

the last quote Cynthia posted sure seems to say to me that the school can teach what they want and the parents can't complain or object




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 2:56:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auben

After reading the apellate decision my conclusion is not that parents are denied the right to choose their child's education but that parents are denied the right to change, subtract, or otherwise manipulate the school's curriculum through the court system or through complaint. In order to do so they must go through the proper channels.

Furthermore, the plaintives were informed beforehand and signed permission slips for the survey. They were not uninformed, nor were the students forced to read them. Their was always an ability to opt out and the decision does not take away the parents' ability to refuse certain services for their child.

Are we reading the same decision? That is not what it states at all.

Again from the court document:
quote:

Moreover, no constitutional provision prohibits the dissemination of general information on subject of public interest to children or to adults (unless it is the Establishment or the Treason Clause). Thus the right of the parents “to control the upbringing of their children by introducing them to matters of and relating to sex in accordance with their personal and religious values and beliefs” – the right to privacy here asserted – does not entitle them to prohibit public schools from providing students with information that the schools deem to be educationally appropriate.




PrincessDonna -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 3:05:59 PM)

I've seen it in action and it disgusts me. Our district public school truly does feel the kids belong to the government if/when the parents send them to government property. I have a good friend who is a teacher in that district, and she will tell you she is there for the kids and parents who don't have a viable option (or at least think they don't) other than sending them there.

It may not be law (by that, I mean that everyone may not read the law in the same way), but it is true in probably most public schools. If it's true here (conservative rural upstate NY), it's gonna be true a lot of places. The government thinks they know better than parents. All parents.




Jenny-Fair -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 3:09:52 PM)

I agree with your assessment, Donna. After finding out about the grade school Nate would have gone to locking his friend in a room by himself for an hour or more nearly every day and not feeling like they needed to talk to the parents or even inform them of it, your opinion is the only conclusion I can come to.




MrsTracy72 -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 3:24:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair

I agree with your assessment, Donna. After finding out about the grade school Nate would have gone to locking his friend in a room by himself for an hour or more nearly every day and not feeling like they needed to talk to the parents or even inform them of it, your opinion is the only conclusion I can come to.


I have actually had more feedback from the public school that I sent my kids to this last year than the private "Christian" schools they have gone to for the 6 years before that. I also asked the questions about sex ed and what is taught and was told right then and there if I didn't agree with the material or the way in which the material was taught that I could release my child/children from those types of classes. I don't know if my public school system is just that good, but they didn't give me a hard time and they were more informative than our other schools, and we did try out three different schools.

I did have to be proactive and go to the school BEFORE the year started and ask the questions and find out their timeline so that I could do what I needed or wanted to do, but I was given no resistance.




Jenny-Fair -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 3:28:33 PM)

I think what they are saying is that opting out of that class is not going to keep the school from giving the kids materials that you would disapprove of. It doesn't only happen during that one week.




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 3:57:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
I have actually had more feedback from the public school that I sent my kids to this last year than the private "Christian" schools they have gone to for the 6 years before that. I also asked the questions about sex ed and what is taught and was told right then and there if I didn't agree with the material or the way in which the material was taught that I could release my child/children from those types of classes. I don't know if my public school system is just that good, but they didn't give me a hard time and they were more informative than our other schools, and we did try out three different schools.

I did have to be proactive and go to the school BEFORE the year started and ask the questions and find out their timeline so that I could do what I needed or wanted to do, but I was given no resistance.

That's good and how it ought to be, but the fact remains that they don't legally have to do that, based on federal court rulings. However, the laws do vary from state to state. I am not aware of what states have what laws. I known in our state, the schools can teach whatever they deem to be appropriate. In our local schools, they have been teaching a lot of things that I would not want my children subjected to.

ETA:
I don’t think that all schools are going to teach such things. I also think a lot of schools will allow parents to opt out. However, there are also a lot of schools that would only keep such a document as the op linked to in order to be aware of the crazy religious person in their midst. The 9 th circuit court has ruled that federal law allows the school the right of “dissemination of general information on subjects of public interest to children” regardless of what the parents want. Parents have no more rights than what the schools are willing to give them, unless there are other state laws protecting the ability of parents to opt out of certain teaching. This doesn’t mean that schools must disregard parental wishes. It simply means they can if they deem their teaching to be of public interest to children.




cynthia -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 6:44:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auben

After reading the apellate decision my conclusion is not that parents are denied the right to choose their child's education but that parents are denied the right to change, subtract, or otherwise manipulate the school's curriculum through the court system or through complaint. In order to do so they must go through the proper channels.

Furthermore, the plaintives were informed beforehand and signed permission slips for the survey. They were not uninformed, nor were the students forced to read them. Their was always an ability to opt out and the decision does not take away the parents' ability to refuse certain services for their child.

I went back and read your post again to try to understand where you are coming from. I don't think anyone said a parent cannot choose their child's education. A parent doesn't have to use the public school. What I said was that a parent cannot decide what to take and what to leave as far as what the school is teaching, unless the school is okay with that. It is up to the school, unless there are other laws in place, in that state. However, there is a such a law in Massechussets, but a school there still disregarded the parent's wishes and when the parent demanded that they follow the law, the school had him arrested for trespassing. The man then sued the school over the right to not have his son (who was six by this time) taught that homosexual relationships are normal. The man lost. The man sued in federal, not state court, so the ruling is a federal ruling. I haven't been able to find out why he didn't file in state court. It does seem that the state law should protect him.

Also, even if a parent goes through the "proper channels," that doesn't mean they will be able to opt out of teaching the parent deems unacceptable. Under federal law, the school has the right to make the decision on what will be taught based on what the school deems appropriate.




DougHorton -> RE: Protecting Our Children (7/19/2008 6:56:08 PM)

Don't think that you cannot fight the public schools. We sat down with our lawyer and school reps and they panicked.

We have done private schools, home school and public school. By far the better education came from the public school, they just needed to be reigned in.

As for protecting our children, we make it a point to teach controversial points of view at home first. When they get exposed to other ideas at school, it's old news. Our goal is to raise missionaries.




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