RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 6/30/2008 5:04:33 PM
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bgwill3
Posts: 62
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
“Where in Scripture does it say we must refer to theological ideas only in ways that are found in Scripture”?
Answer:
Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Seems very serious to me.
I don't think these passages directly answer MrFribbles' question.
I think we would all agree that the Scriptures plainly teach monotheism. There is no instance of the word "monotheism" in the Bible. I think we would all agree that this doesn't disqualify monotheism as true doctrine.
"The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4, AV). We call such a theological system "monotheism." Paul didn't call it by that word. Certainly, he expounded upon it, explained it, delineated it, preached it, etc. The word is not found in Scripture; but the doctrine is intrinsic to Scripture, and the basis of our faith.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 6/30/2008 5:05:42 PM
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bgwill3
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Should have placed this in the previous post:
So, notmycity, would you object to use of the term "monotheism" ?
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 6/30/2008 7:14:17 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Here's another we won't find in Scripture: "kinsman redeemer".
Thank you.
That sort of depends upon the translation, but in Hebrew the idea of kinsman included redemption under certain circumstances.
גּאל gâ'al gaw-al' found 98 times in the KJV translated as redeem, 24; redeemed, 24; redeemer, 18; kinsman, 11; avenger, 6; revenger, 6; ransomed, 2; deliver, 1; kinsfolks, 1; kinsman’s, 1; kinsmen, 1; purchase, 1; redeemeth, 1; revengers, 1
Easton's Bible Dictionary states:Kinsman
Heb. goel, from root meaning to redeem. The goel among the Hebrews was the nearest male blood relation alive. Certain important obligations devolved upon him toward his next of kin.
(1.) If any one from poverty was unable to redeem his inheritance, it was the duty of the kinsman to redeem it (Lev 25:25, Lev 25:28; Ruth 3:9, Ruth 3:12). He was also required to redeem his relation who had sold himself into slavery (Lev 25:48, Lev 25:49).
God is the Goel of his people because he redeems them (Exo 6:6; Isa 43:1; Isa 41:14; Isa 44:6, Isa 44:22; Isa 48:20; Psa 103:4; Job 19:25, etc.).
(2.) The goel also was the avenger (q.v.) of blood (Num 35:21) in the case of the murder of the next of kin.
Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions:
1) to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman
1a1) to act as kinsman, do the part of next of kin, act as kinsman-redeemer
1a1a) by marrying brother’s widow to beget a child for him, to redeem from slavery, to redeem land, to exact vengeance
1a2) to redeem (by payment)
1a3) to redeem (with God as subject)
1a3a) individuals from death
1a3b) Israel from Egyptian bondage
1a3c) Israel from exile
Looks pretty clear that the idea of Kinsman Redeemer is found in scripture. Though גּאל may only be translated as kinsman, the cultural context decidedly includes the idea of redeemer (and avenger).
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 6/30/2008 7:27:13 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bgwill3
Should have placed this in the previous post:
So, notmycity, would you object to use of the term "monotheism" ?
Let me ask you....
Are all monotheistic religions the same as Christianity?
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 6/30/2008 7:32:49 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1247
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Are all monotheistic religions the same as Christianity?
Out of all the red fish, snapper is my favorite, but if you prefer red herring, that's your choice.
If I may use an overused example of logic - all men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. This in no way suggests all mortal things are Socrates, or that all men are Socrates, or all mortals are men. Your question is trying to draw bgwill3 into something not even hinted at in their question, unless you are misunderstanding the basic concepts of logic.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 10:16:31 AM
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bgwill3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: bgwill3
Should have placed this in the previous post:
So, notmycity, would you object to use of the term "monotheism" ?
Let me ask you....
Are all monotheistic religions the same as Christianity?
Respectfully, I would like to point out that you have side-stepped the question.
Monotheism is defined as "[t]he doctrine or belief that there is only one God."
We believe that there is one God (Deut. 6:4) who revealed himself in his Son Jesus (John 1:1, 14, 18; Hebrews 1:1-3). Thus, the word "monotheism" is used to describe Christianity. I will reiterate my question to you: Do you object to such a use of the word?
Now, as to your question of me, it could also describe other belief systems, to be fair. What point are you making by asking your question?
To cite the source of the definition:
"monotheism." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 01 Jul. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monotheism>
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 1:40:29 PM
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Beanteaser
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The phrase "Personal Relationship with Jesus" is also found nowhere in Scripture but is widely used as a requirement for salvation. Although I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is not why I am saved. I am convinced Satan has personal relationship with Jesus as well. That doesn't make him saved either.
The more biblical term is "fellowship."
< Message edited by Beanteaser -- 7/1/2008 1:46:53 PM >
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 2:40:39 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1247
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The phrase "Personal Relationship with Jesus" is also found nowhere in Scripture but is widely used as a requirement for salvation. Although I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is not why I am saved. I am convinced Satan has personal relationship with Jesus as well. That doesn't make him saved either.
The phrase "Online Christian Forum" isn't found anywhere in Scripture. We had all best get off of here, eh?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 2:43:05 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
The phrase "Personal Relationship with Jesus" is also found nowhere in Scripture but is widely used as a requirement for salvation. Although I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is not why I am saved. I am convinced Satan has personal relationship with Jesus as well. That doesn't make him saved either.
The more biblical term is "fellowship."
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)
Personal relationship can be adversarial (though it usually isn't thought of in that manner), but the context used by those who stress their relationship with Jesus does not really allow that interpretation.
Scripture speaks several times about how sin breaks our fellowship with God.
Fellowship is always marked by a personal relationship.
Fellowship and congenial personal relationships are always characterized by behaviors that reflect the regard one party has for the other. If I say that I love my wife, as an example, and then intentionally do things that I know upset her without cause, she certainly has reason to doubt the sincerity of my profession of love.
In like manner, no matter whether I call it a personal relationship, or fellowship with Jesus, if it is not accompanied by changes in my attitudes and actions based upon it, my protestations of love and relationship ring hollow.
Does it truly matter if you call it relationship or fellowship? More important is how much it has changed the life of the person.
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? (James 2:20)
Relationship or fellowship, like faith, without "works" in keeping with the profession is merely hot air.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 3:01:41 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Thanks...For some reason the copy and paste did not work from my Bible Study Software. Oh well..
It doesn't on mine either. I hate that.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 3:10:30 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Thanks...For some reason the copy and paste did not work from my Bible Study Software. Oh well..
It doesn't on mine either. I hate that.
What do you use? I use e-sword, but when I use the "copy verse" when I am citing something in Hebrew or Greek, it doesn't copy the fonts...but highlight and control C does...you might try that.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 3:35:11 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 287
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The phrase "Personal Relationship with Jesus" is also found nowhere in Scripture but is widely used as a requirement for salvation. Although I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is not why I am saved. I am convinced Satan has personal relationship with Jesus as well. That doesn't make him saved either.
The phrase "Online Christian Forum" isn't found anywhere in Scripture. We had all best get off of here, eh?
What is your point?
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 3:50:17 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 287
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
The phrase "Personal Relationship with Jesus" is also found nowhere in Scripture but is widely used as a requirement for salvation. Although I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is not why I am saved. I am convinced Satan has personal relationship with Jesus as well. That doesn't make him saved either.
The more biblical term is "fellowship."
Fellowship is always marked by a personal relationship.
Agreed! However personal relationship isn't always marked by fellowship.
quote:
Does it truly matter if you call it relationship or fellowship?
Tim
I think so because I think there is a distinction between the two.
We are called to be in the fellowship of His Son (1 Corinthians 1:9). We are never called (In Scripture) to have a personal relationship with him, although I do agree with your first point.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/1/2008 10:37:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1247
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
What is your point?
My point is, you seem to think anything not found in Scripture, word-for-word, is suspect. If that perception is incorrect, please let me know.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 11:34:08 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
What is your point?
My point is, you seem to think anything not found in Scripture, word-for-word, is suspect. If that perception is incorrect, please let me know.
For my part, ANY TEACHING of so-called “Christian” doctrine not found in Scripture is in error.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 12:07:23 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1121
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
What is your point?
My point is, you seem to think anything not found in Scripture, word-for-word, is suspect. If that perception is incorrect, please let me know.
For my part, ANY TEACHING of so-called “Christian” doctrine not found in Scripture is in error.
So you need to answer the question, in light of this statement and the OP. Do you reject the idea of the Trinity? If anything not found in scripture is in error, and your OP says that the idea of the Trinity is not in the bible, I have to ask. Do you reject the Trinity? Your two statements leads me to assume you do.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 12:51:31 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
So you need to answer the question, in light of this statement and the OP. Do you reject the idea of the Trinity? If anything not found in scripture is in error, and your OP says that the idea of the Trinity is not in the bible, I have to ask. Do you reject the Trinity? Your two statements leads me to assume you do.
The definition of a trinity is as follows:
trin i ty (trin i te) n. , pl. -ties [[ME trinite < OFr trinite < L trinitas, triad, in LL(Ec), the Trinity (infl. by Gr trias ) < trinus: see TRINE & -ITY]] 1 the condition of being three or threefold 2 a set of three persons or things that form a unit 3 [T-] Christian Theol. TRINITY SUNDAY the Trinity Christian Theol. the union of the three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead...
Scripture says this:
I Jn 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Deut 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
I simply accept the Scripture, not some [attempt] (miss-spelled originally) at anthropomorphics to use an inaccuarate term such as trinity.
"These three are One" has a different meaning than "three in one".
Hope that helps.
< Message edited by notmycity -- 7/2/2008 2:02:33 PM >
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 1:28:58 PM
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Ps103
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Tread carefully, Topher. Re-read the TOS, ROD and SOF.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 4:12:04 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1247
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
For my part, ANY TEACHING of so-called “Christian” doctrine not found in Scripture is in error.
notmycity, what liquid do you consume during communion?
Also, do you forbid women to wear jewelry and braid their hair?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 4:28:58 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2435
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From: California
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quote:
"These three are One" has a different meaning than "three in one".
Hope that helps.
That is about as clear as mud, what exactly do you believe is wrong with how the Christian church teaches the Trinity? Is it simply a disagreement about using the word 'Trinity' or are you trying to say that there is a significant doctrinal error? If it is the latter, please clearly explain what you believe in error.
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RE: Trinity, rapture and other unscriptural terminology. - 7/2/2008 6:14:34 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
notmycity, what liquid do you consume during communion?
Also, do you forbid women to wear jewelry and braid their hair?
Sounds like another thread for each to me.
We do our best to follow the Scriptures for both.
Please see:
Matt 26:29
Mark 14:25
Luke 22:18
1 Tim 2:9-10
1 Pet 3:1-6
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no co | | |
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