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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 9:54:35 AM
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fiat_lux
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I sometimes suspect we don't have a lot of data about the Antarctic, which wouldn't be unsurprising given the shortage of weather stations, etc. That link mentions Bromwich, and there's a more detailed discussion of his work here:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/osu-atd021207.php
As he points out, there's rapid warming in some parts of Antarctica, and cooling in other parts. There appears to be a mix of things going on - climate change trends, stronger wind patterns, ozone depletion, etc, etc.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 10:54:22 AM
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rcjames
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I just really think that all this "Climate change", end of world hyperventilating just ignores the fact that God created this earth, and God maintains this earth, and God will destroy this earth when he is good and ready.
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:08:41 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree.
I don't think there's anyone seriously claiming that we're thwarting God's will. But he appointed us as stewards, or I guess to some extent as rulers, over this part of that creation. If we misuse that authority, presumably there will be worldly consequences of that mismanagement, just as there are frequently worldly consequences when I do other things that God has instructed me not to do. I'm not sure God's maintenance of the earth extends to completely covering over the consequences of willful blunders on our part.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:19:40 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I just really think that all this "Climate change", end of world hyperventilating just ignores the fact that God created this earth, and God maintains this earth, and God will destroy this earth when he is good and ready.
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree.
Thanks
RC
There's an embedded inconsistency in that. On the one hand, we preach personal responsibility, rational consequences for actions, and taking initiative to do the right thing. Then on the other hand, we sometimes act as if our actions have no consequences and that God will either bail us out or take us home. Either our actions have consequences and we have responsibilities to meet, or our actions are irrelevant and life is deterministic. I don't think that both can exist.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:20:17 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree.
I don't think there's anyone seriously claiming that we're thwarting God's will. But he appointed us as stewards, or I guess to some extent as rulers, over this part of that creation. If we misuse that authority, presumably there will be worldly consequences of that mismanagement, just as there are frequently worldly consequences when I do other things that God has instructed me not to do. I'm not sure God's maintenance of the earth extends to completely covering over the consequences of willful blunders on our part.
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:22:37 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree.
I don't think there's anyone seriously claiming that we're thwarting God's will. But he appointed us as stewards, or I guess to some extent as rulers, over this part of that creation. If we misuse that authority, presumably there will be worldly consequences of that mismanagement, just as there are frequently worldly consequences when I do other things that God has instructed me not to do. I'm not sure God's maintenance of the earth extends to completely covering over the consequences of willful blunders on our part.
For man to think he can change what God intends is just arrogance to the Nth degree
Thanks
RC
Then why the great commission? If God will save whom he will save, why bother? Why pray? I think there is ample evidence that God's mind can be changed by the righteous behavior and prayers of the faithful. If that's the case, then good stewardship is a virtue that should be demanded of the faithful. Anything else is an abuse of his creation and sinful.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:27:27 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Then why the great commission? If God will save whom he will save, why bother? Why pray? I think there is ample evidence that God's mind can be changed by the righteous behavior and prayers of the faithful. If that's the case, then good stewardship is a virtue that should be demanded of the faithful. Anything else is an abuse of his creation and sinful.
Well the great commission is to offer the opportunity to whosoever will.
But if one thinks that they can destroy the earth when God does not want it destroyed; or save the earth when God does not want it saved; that is arrogance.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 11:36:57 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well the great commission is to offer the opportunity to whosoever will.
But if one thinks that they can destroy the earth when God does not want it destroyed; or save the earth when God does not want it saved; that is arrogance.
Thanks
RC
There is some evidence that God's mind can be changed when it comes to destruction -
Gen. 18
23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
... and so on
To say that God will destroy the earth or save the earth regardless of our actions doesn't square up. Otherwise, why send Jonah to Ninevah? Why look for a righteous man in Sodom?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 12:37:43 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 225
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
If we misuse that authority, presumably there will be worldly consequences of that mismanagement, just as there are frequently worldly consequences when I do other things that God has instructed me not to do. I'm not sure God's maintenance of the earth extends to completely covering over the consequences of willful blunders on our part.
quote:
Either our actions have consequences and we have responsibilities to meet, or our actions are irrelevant and life is deterministic. I don't think that both can exist.
quote:
then good stewardship is a virtue that should be demanded of the faithful. Anything else is an abuse of his creation and sinful.
Good points, assuming we are not being good stewards of the Earth. I just don't believe that we aren't. How much environmental legislation, conservation education, endangered species acts, recycling, etc. is enough for y'all? Forty + years of impending doom and calls to action, and still the beat goes on. If what we've already done to save the planet isn't enough, then either the planet is not save-able or (more likely) it was never in peril. Judgement for our stewardship of the planet is low on God's priority list, I suspect.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 12:58:11 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Good points, assuming we are not being good stewards of the Earth. I just don't believe that we aren't. How much environmental legislation, conservation education, endangered species acts, recycling, etc. is enough for y'all? Forty + years of impending doom and calls to action, and still the beat goes on. If what we've already done to save the planet isn't enough, then either the planet is not save-able or (more likely) it was never in peril. Judgement for our stewardship of the planet is low on God's priority list, I suspect.
And there is the crux of the matter - do you believe we've done as much as we should do, or can and should we do more. Pretty much a matter of opinion. To me, I think we can do better. Reasonable people can and will disagree.
For me, it's not as much a matter of "saving the planet from doom" as it is creating a healthier one. We're probably out of "doom" territory (i.e. the Ohio River is no longer catching fire LOL), but not as far down the road toward health as I would like to see.
Again, reasonable people such as you are welcome disagree with me on that.
I agree with you that we're light years ahead of where we would have been if our growth had continued but our policies had remained stuck in the 1960's. Quite a lot has already been done.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 1:09:01 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Artic Sea Ice News & Analysis
Perhaps you missed this the first time I posted it.
New Record for Antarctic Total Ice Extent
Oh, I read it. 
Nice try Sophie -
quote:
The Web site domain name for ICECAP was registered on October 20, 2006 by Science and Public Policy Institute Meteorology Adviser: Joe D'Aleo
quote:
Science and Public Policy Institute(SPPI), formerly the Frontiers of Freedom's Center for Science and Public Policy promotes the views of global warming skeptics. The website links to two other skeptic websites - the Heartland Institute's global warming page and the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change.
The SPPI website also lists a number of other prominent climate change skeptics who are involved with one or more other anti-Kyoto treaty groups.
quote:
Frontiers of Freedom calls itself the "antithesis" of the green movement. In 1996, former Senator Malcolm Wallop (R-WY) started Frontiers of Freedom to fight environmental regulations, particularly the Endangered Species Act and any law seen as infringing on "property rights." But increasingly, it has focussed on the issue of global warming.
After a $100,000 grant from ExxonMobil in 2002, FoF set up the Center for Science and Public Policy in 2003. The CSPP concentrates on two areas: trashing global warming science, and also questioning the scientific evidence on the dangers of mercury emitted from coal-fired power plants.
I'll give you credit Sophie, it was a hard trail to follow!
How about NASA's take on the increase in Antarctic ice?
quote:
A new NASA-funded study finds that predicted increases in precipitation due to warmer air temperatures from greenhouse gas emissions may actually increase sea ice volume in the Antarctic’s Southern Ocean. This adds new evidence of potential asymmetry between the two poles, and may be an indication that climate change processes may have different impact on different areas of the globe.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 1:09:18 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
To say that God will destroy the earth or save the earth regardless of our actions doesn't square up. Otherwise, why send Jonah to Ninevah? Why look for a righteous man in Sodom?
I really think you are making a strawman argument in relatioship to being green.
But if you want to think that God will change his mind about bringing all this to and end and sending Jesus to set up His Kingdon because someone drivea a Yugo instead of a Hummer; then just have at it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 1:27:01 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2129
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
To say that God will destroy the earth or save the earth regardless of our actions doesn't square up. Otherwise, why send Jonah to Ninevah? Why look for a righteous man in Sodom?
I really think you are making a straw-man argument in relationship to being green.
But if you want to think that God will change his mind about bringing all this to and end and sending Jesus to set up His Kingdom because someone drivea a Yugo instead of a Hummer; then just have at it.
Thanks
RC
Maybe, maybe not. In the meantime, though, should we have a cleaner planet and exercise good stewardship as commanded or not? I don't think it's a total straw man (little bit of one, granted) The fundamental point stands though. God takes account of our actions. Ninevah was eventually destroyed, for example. It just happened later after Jonah's visit and after the people returned to their old ways. God does take account of our actions - for better AND for worse - and that's the key point.
We shouldn't let the end result drive our decision of whether or not to do the right thing.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 3:01:23 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1802
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated
Not just documented proof, but proof that is based on real-time, and not modeled data. But studies that were done using the scientific method: that being observable, measureable, and repeatable. Come on greenies if global warming is such a truth I know you can provide this type of evidence. Is it provable beyond a reasonable doubt; I think not.
Artic Sea Ice News & Analysis
Could it be that the Artic Ice Cap is melting due to volcanoes?
quote:
Volcanic eruptions reshape Arctic ocean floor: study
Wed Jun 25, 4:13 PM ET
PARIS (AFP) - Recent massive volcanoes have risen from the ocean floor deep under the Arctic ice cap, spewing plumes of fragmented magma into the sea, scientists who filmed the aftermath reported Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENT
The eruptions -- as big as the one that buried Pompei -- took place in 1999 along the Gakkel Ridge, an underwater mountain chain snaking 1,800 kilometres (1,100 miles) from the northern tip of Greenland to Siberia.
Scientists suspected even at the time that a simultaneous series of earthquakes were linked to these volcanic spasms.
But when a team led of scientists led by Robert Sohn of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts finally got a first-ever glimpse of the ocean floor 4,000 meters (13,000 feet) beneath the Arctic pack ice, they were astonished.
What they saw was unmistakable evidence of explosive eruptions rather than the gradual secretion of lava bubbling up from Earth's mantle onto the ocean floor.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 3:29:51 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 225
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
And there is the crux of the matter - do you believe we've done as much as we should do, or can and should we do more. Pretty much a matter of opinion. To me, I think we can do better. Reasonable people can and will disagree.
I'd say the crux of the matter is truth.
The unreasonable voices are prevailing right now, with people of faith buying into it. Christianity has been so 'dumbed down' and emotionalized that we have lost our ability to think critically. We are to love God with all our heart, soul and MIND. Too many christians have abandoned the third aspect of faith, and the Enemy WILL capitalize.
quote:
We're probably out of "doom" territory (i.e. the Ohio River is no longer catching fire LOL), but not as far down the road toward health as I would like to see.
I don't believe we were ever in 'doom' territory. There's never been such thing as a totally healthy planet. All living things make a mess, and God creatednthe Earth with robust systems for dealing with them. Again, what degree of health would be adequate?
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 3:43:49 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 317
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated
Not just documented proof, but proof that is based on real-time, and not modeled data. But studies that were done using the scientific method: that being observable, measureable, and repeatable. Come on greenies if global warming is such a truth I know you can provide this type of evidence. Is it provable beyond a reasonable doubt; I think not.
Artic Sea Ice News & Analysis
Could it be that the Artic Ice Cap is melting due to volcanoes?
quote:
Volcanic eruptions reshape Arctic ocean floor: study
Wed Jun 25, 4:13 PM ET
PARIS (AFP) - Recent massive volcanoes have risen from the ocean floor deep under the Arctic ice cap, spewing plumes of fragmented magma into the sea, scientists who filmed the aftermath reported Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENT
The eruptions -- as big as the one that buried Pompei -- took place in 1999 along the Gakkel Ridge, an underwater mountain chain snaking 1,800 kilometres (1,100 miles) from the northern tip of Greenland to Siberia.
Scientists suspected even at the time that a simultaneous series of earthquakes were linked to these volcanic spasms.
But when a team led of scientists led by Robert Sohn of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts finally got a first-ever glimpse of the ocean floor 4,000 meters (13,000 feet) beneath the Arctic pack ice, they were astonished.
What they saw was unmistakable evidence of explosive eruptions rather than the gradual secretion of lava bubbling up from Earth's mantle onto the ocean floor.
Don't know, it could just be the lack of fur seals & polar bears insulating the ice. 
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 4:01:03 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3187
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
Is God green? -
Nope...but, I have a sneaking suspicion the Anti-Christ will be!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 4:45:18 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1081
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
Status: offline
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quote:
Nope...but, I have a sneaking suspicion the Anti-Christ will be!
Yep! I'm betting you're correct.
_____________________________
Lutefisk--The Piece Of Cod That Passeth All Understanding
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 9:15:45 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Nope...but, I have a sneaking suspicion the Anti-Christ will be!
I agree as well!
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 9:38:51 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 308
Joined: 7/14/2005
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Is God green? Well, He certainly did NOT pollute the air, land, and water. When He made the Earth, it was clean and abundant. I'd say as stewards of HIS planet, we are rather incompetent. We created pollution, have driven thousands of species of plants and animals to extinction, and have created famines which have caused the starvation of millions(and yes nearly all famines are created by humans mostly thru poor farming and soil conservation practices). To say that God doesn't care what we do to His planet or that we will not be held to account for our "caretaking" is just plain ignorant.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/3/2008 9:45:54 PM
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Sophie11
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