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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 10:27:53 AM
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garsyt
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I see this as a way of trying to get teenagers to think beyond themselves! Something many teens simply can't or refuse to do.
I mean think about it - what would a 14 year old boy rather do: Spend the afternoon playing video games or spend the afternoon with a bunch of 9 year old cub scouts setting up for a campout?
Community service - even required community service isn't a bad thing or a "sentence" or even slave labor. It's teaching them to do something for someone else without expecting reward.
There is such rampant selfishness and self-centeredness amongst many young people today that requiring kids to look beyond themselves for a change, might actually do this country some good.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 10:31:50 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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Making kids do something while in school is not going to make them enjoy it and do it more after they get out of school, though. I mean, my sister can read, and she reads whatever her teacher assigns, but I have never seen her read for pleasure. Likewise, I don't see a community service requirements causing more graduates to volunteer.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 10:47:44 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
There is such rampant selfishness and self-centeredness amongst many young people today that requiring kids to look beyond themselves for a change, might actually do this country some good.
I see rampant selfishness among ADULTS much more than young people....
perhaps the law should mandate "community service" for ALL CITIZENS....there, that should take care of it.....it'll do everyone some good....
right?
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 11:49:18 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1909
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quote:
ORIGINAL: garsyt
I see this as a way of trying to get teenagers to think beyond themselves! Something many teens simply can't or refuse to do.
I mean think about it - what would a 14 year old boy rather do: Spend the afternoon playing video games or spend the afternoon with a bunch of 9 year old cub scouts setting up for a campout?
Community service - even required community service isn't a bad thing or a "sentence" or even slave labor. It's teaching them to do something for someone else without expecting reward.
There is such rampant selfishness and self-centeredness amongst many young people today that requiring kids to look beyond themselves for a change, might actually do this country some good.
Blessings,
Garsy
I agree in principle that community service is a way to get kids (and adults) to think beyond themselves and benefit their communities and impact the world.
But making this mandatory, as a function of school, as well as attaching federal funds to it usurps the parents. Character training should be primarily the function of parents, and the school's primary function should be academics.
Let's remember that this thread is not about protesting community service and volunteerism- it is about the concerns that a federal program that rewards schools with money for mandatory community service from students is a far cry from families deciding to unselfishly be involved in serving their community or country.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 11:52:55 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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Well said, Sunnymom!
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 11:57:50 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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I'd be interested in seeing how many schools/districts already have mandatory community service for high school graduation. I would bet it's a good majority.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 12:13:19 PM
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sen10tious
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quote:
ORIGINAL: garsyt
It's teaching them to do something for someone else without expecting reward.
Is it? I am going to need some convincing to accept that. After all, the schools implementing such a program would be getting a reward of sorts. I could believe it more readily if the decision was made locally and no federal funding was involved.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 4:45:56 PM
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10SNE1?
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Our school district ( here is hint for you Sunny Mom  ) now requires 75 hours of community service for graduation. Until last year, it was 100 hours. We have had this requirement for almost 20 years and never had a kid fail to graduate because of it.
Just last year they added a reflection/report/senior project piece to it in which each student is require to make a presentation at an open-to-the-public Community Service Fair. Very cool to see what these young people had done and listen to them share their thoughts on the experience.
Just about any service performed without pay for a non-profit organization counts. Like most everything, the family plays a significant role in what the child actually takes away from the experience. It is possible to get all your community service hours selling hot dogs at your little brother's soccer games ( which your mom was going to make you sit at anyway). However, many kids have found careers and life-long interests from purposefully selecting rewarding and challenging acts of service.
The idea that this is "slave labor" or "forced volunteerism" seems misplaced. Why would required gym class then not be "forced fitness" ? Schools strive to teach students to be productive members of society and "learning" to do your part for the betterment of your community is good.
Interesting thought came to me as I read this thread. As a paid member of a Kids' Ministry staff, we spend a lot of time researching and discussing ways to reach this upcoming generation, what current young parents value in church programs and just general trends in ministry.
One of the biggest sea-changes in the church from the 1980s to today is the focus and value placed on outreach vs. programming. Today's young families want their kids to have practical, hands-on training in what it looks like to be an authentic follower of Christ, serving others and being the church to a dying world. They care very little about " quiz team" and " safe, family friendly movie night" and other inward focused events.
Today's college-age students are flocking to churches which make helping "the least of these" a priority over slick Sunday morning worship productions and "culture wars".
Makes you wonder if God used the schools and CS requirements to get the church back to making a real difference in the community. 
As far as the Federal Mandate: As long as kids can meet the requirement by serving the non-profit organization of their choice, it is fine by me. All in all, this just seems to be falling along the usual home school- public school party lines. 
Edited to say: or maybe political party lines
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 5:17:14 PM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
All in all, this just seems to be falling along the usual home school- public school party lines.
No, it isn't, and I can't imagine why you would think that, as there are alot of people talking about this proposal out there in the big wide world who are in opposition to it who are not homeschoolers. Crosswalk is not the universe, or even a really big country.
There are principles in place in our country that have allowed us to prosper and enjoy many freedoms. Such ideas as required community service sound wonderful- "Let's make these kids grateful for what they have!" But is that a legitimate function of a school, of the gov't?
As for other things that are required in schools- I can understand having some physical education/recess, as you can't expect kids to sit for 6-8 hours a day without exercise. And it really isn't forced fitness, judging from the kids I see on the neighborhood that look like walking heart attacks, and exercise and nutrition are IMO legitimate academic subjects. I never said I opposed a school having a community service program as part of the educational process.
If communities in local elections or meetings with school boards decide that they want their school to provide a program of community service for their kids, then that's terrific. My only opposition is when the power of choice is taken from parents and given to politicians and educrats. Many parents can't afford a private school or cannot homeschool, and they often feel trapped in their unresponsive and overburdened public schools. My heart goes out to them, and I will do what I can to affect the system in any way that I believe truly benefits families.
Community service for the child is an exercise in unselfishness, gratitude, compassion... but for the gov't it's free labor. If schools can receive federal funds by creating community service programs (that are going to be regulated by the federal gov't and impacted by every special interest group coming down the pike), it becomes a whole different ballgame.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 5:20:12 PM
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thisistheday
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Yep, what Sunnymom said in post 54.
I'd have less problem with it if there was local control/administration.
When my daughter was a freshman and sophomore a few hours of community service were part of the grade each quarter for one of her classes. Not doing it would have hurt her grade, but not kept her from graduating. Unless she never passed that class.
Up until this past school year a senior project was required for graduation. It wasn't a community service project requirement, but many if not most of the projects were community service. Kids did things like paint play equipment at a park, help direct VBS, direct the Christmas program at church, make a quilt to donate to an organization that could put it to use, etc.
How the program would be administered would make a big difference. For example, my oldest spends weeks volunteering at a Bible camp. If this would count, great! Because she spends her summers at camp for the most part, she works more during the school year. If she was required to do additional hours during the school year that wouldn't work so well for us.
If volunteerism isn't valued, encouraged, and modeled at home requiring it of students makes it just another thing to check off their to do list.
Dee
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 8:52:19 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10233
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
using the phrase "give back" mean I took something and I took nothing.
If you had a need, you would be thankful for those who filled it. If you had a house fire, you might be thankful for a volunteer fire department. If you had a car accident, you might be thankful for a volunteer ambulance crew. If you unexpectedly needed a blood transfusion, you might be thankful for someone who gave blood.
All of these things have been used by my family, with no warning. If you haven't used any of these services, chances are you will someday, or someone close to you will. We all take SOMEthing (unless you are a hermit who never deals with people) and we should all give back in some way. It's part of being human. I happen to think it is a good thing to teach kids and not all parents will do it, so if the schools decide to...GREAT! Requiring it will mean more will do it, at least to fill the requirement, and many may decide they ENJOY giving to their community and continue it even after the requirement is met. I'm sure that's the goal.
I personally just disagree with the government program aspect. Yeah, like we need another one of those... 
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 9:55:02 PM
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myka
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One of the reasons for public school (it isn't just an academic thing) is to develop children into productive members of society. Helping others is important. My ds was required to do about 20 hours in middle school (easily fulfilled with youth group activities and other thing he was already doing). I suppose it would be more difficult if a child wasn't involved in organizations that serve the community, but certainly not impossible. Honestly, 20-30 hours a year is quite low.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 10:08:40 PM
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IonMoon
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I am a homeschooler who is fine with this (in fact I strongly support it).
Many of the concerns expressed are exaggerations. It is not free labor for the government unless the community service has to be for government programs, and as I understand Obama's proposal, this is not the case in any way. I would be against that, too.
But I am totally supportive of having kids perform an average of an hour a week in a community service project of their choice. I believe flexibility and support needs to be in place to help kids/families who have obstacles like transportation/financial/time constraints, whatever.
If you don't like the public schools, don't use them.
Tara P
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/11/2008 10:21:01 PM
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JuliaHop
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I think that the following gives a little insight as to how Obama would love to damage the freedoms in churches and it reaffirms that I would never trust him and a community service proposal (particularly when he is asking children to earn money for the school districts...money that their parents already turned over to the government to provide funding to their schools):
quote:
He was two-thirds of the way through his remarks when he inserted the six words with the potential to put his whole effort at risk. Speaking “as someone who used to teach constitutional law,” he spelled out “a few basic principles” to reassure listeners that such partnerships between religious groups and the government would not endanger the separation of church and state.
“First,” he said, “if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help, and you can’t discriminate against them — or against the people you hire — on the basis of their religion.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/us/05beliefs.html
So...he will let churches provide federal services...as long as they lose their freedom to hire like minded believers as employees in their churches.
Sigh...
When I was researching schools concerning mandatory community service, I did note a school that indicates that children could serve at their church...as long as it did not involve religious training (Sunday School teacher, etc...). They could work at a soup kitchen, but, nothing involving training people in religious beliefs.
Oh...and my child has been raised to serve and will continue to serve...but forced community service to receive funding is not serving...it is child labor.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/12/2008 8:48:17 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1909
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quote:
How the program would be administered would make a big difference. For example, my oldest spends weeks volunteering at a Bible camp. If this would count, great! Because she spends her summers at camp for the most part, she works more during the school year. If she was required to do additional hours during the school year that wouldn't work so well for us.
quote:
... It is not free labor for the government unless the community service has to be for government programs, and as I understand Obama's proposal, this is not the case in any way. I would be against that, too.
As it stands now, with a few schools here and there implementing community service programs, this does not yet appear to be an issue. But to federalize the program will make a huge difference in what is and isn't accepted as community service. There are already little brouhahas all over because of public building being used by Christian organizations and religion being 'taught' in schools. How long do you really think it'll be before a school will not be able to receive federal funds for students performing community service through their churches?
I also believe that if a school has a community service program, it should be an elective and not a requirement for one's GPA or for graduation. I think participation is totally a parental choice, just as other classes are electives and parents opt in/opt out without the child's grades being affected.
This program would also greatly affect inner city schools and rural districts. Attaching federal funding is going to make some schools feel penalized, and it'll be the poorer schools that suffer the most, ifn' ya' ask me.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/12/2008 9:31:29 AM
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Sunnymom
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I was looking for some statistics about mandatory community service, and came across this article in the NYT from 2003-
The Logic of 'Mandatory Volunteerism'
quote:
The Great Neck school district declined to mandate community service, believing that volunteerism is the ''purest form of community service,'' said William A. Shine, the district superintendent.
''It has been talked about by school administrators, but it has never risen to a board discussion,'' he said. ''The high school principals and faculty feel as though the youngsters are participating, especially as they get into their junior and senior years. The list of things they do is heartwarming. It just seemed to the faculty that when you mandate it, you lose the joy of volunteering.''...
...''If you say to kids they have to go to an old age home or have a coat drive, they will do it but it is not self-directed, and teaching kids to self-direct and make good decisions is important,'' said Geoffrey N. Gordon, the Port Washington superintendent. ''I don't believe in mandatory community service, I believe in volunteerism.''
Here we have some school officials who have the right idea. Send that man a Big Mac. 
It is also pointed out in this article that some districts used community service as punishment, and of course our justice system often uses community service as punishment for misdemeanors and such. Does this send mixed messages to kids?
This is like using the Bible to punish kids- by making them memorize or write out verses 100 times. Is that the association we want them to have?
quote:
''It is historically ingrained in the culture and is part of our mission statement,'' said James H. Hunderfund, the Commack superintendent. ''The value of altruism is something we want in our value system. Our primary mission is academic, but we want the kids to acquire not only skills but attitudes and values to become a contributing member of the community and the greater society.''
Asked about those who object to the coercion of students to perform volunteer activities, Dr. Hunderfund replied: ''How many students would do homework if we didn't require it? I don't think a lot of kids would read all the books and do their assignments. We think it's up to the professionals to decide what is important to learn, and to do that, you have to have them experience it.''
Richard J. Hawkins, the William Floyd superintendent, said the requirement had been ''institutionalized for such a long time, that the students know this is an expectation the district has of them.
Institutionalized is exactly the correct term for this. Folks get so used to gov't making decisions for them that they forget all about self-motivation and inspiration, things that are sadly lacking in our society.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/12/2008 12:19:40 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1764
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
quote:
using the phrase "give back" mean I took something and I took nothing.
If you had a need, you would be thankful for those who filled it. If you had a house fire, you might be thankful for a volunteer fire department. If you had a car accident, you might be thankful for a volunteer ambulance crew. If you unexpectedly needed a blood transfusion, you might be thankful for someone who gave blood.
All of these things have been used by my family, with no warning. If you haven't used any of these services, chances are you will someday, or someone close to you will. We all take SOMEthing (unless you are a hermit who never deals with people) and we should all give back in some way. It's part of being human. I happen to think it is a good thing to teach kids and not all parents will do it, so if the schools decide to...GREAT! Requiring it will mean more will do it, at least to fill the requirement, and many may decide they ENJOY giving to their community and continue it even after the requirement is met. I'm sure that's the goal.
I personally just disagree with the government program aspect. Yeah, like we need another one of those...
And what does that have to do with the phrase, 'Give back?" "Giving back means that I took something and is a very socialistic term, imo. I give out of obedience to God and not because I feel I should. I don't think we're arguing whether or not it's good to give, but making it mandatory, right.
dd is entering high schoo this year and I haven't seen anything in writing that states she has to do community service so I'll be looking into it.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/12/2008 12:22:33 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1764
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From: Northern IL
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quote:
It is also pointed out in this article that some districts used community service as punishment, and of course our justice system often uses community service as punishment for misdemeanors and such. Does this send mixed messages to kids?
This is like using the Bible to punish kids- by making them memorize or write out verses 100 times. Is that the association we want them to have?
Very good points.
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Deb
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/13/2008 3:36:03 AM
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relady
Posts: 1049
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
So no one really has a problem with the gov't requiring volunteerism of children? It just spoils the whole idea of voluntar | | |
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