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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 4:38:48 PM
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phosadaud
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I am severely condensing this because it's getting way too long, but if I missed anything important, please let me know.
quote:
(theo) Excuse me! What do you think all those little identifying names are for? They are DESIGNED to help in identifying DIFFERENCES between each other. And naming one's group "nondenominational" is no more help than those of whom Paul said "some say I am of Christ." And the REASON those who said "I am of Christ" were lumped with all the others who divided the body is BECAUSE they did not separate themselves, but thought it was an o.k. standard of Christianity.
That's funny too. So what? I'm from Washington state as opposed to Oregon. That's not divisive. It's descriptive. Again, you completely missed the entire point in my post about how the Body is working together and the "name" of the denomination means diddly to most of us. Again, you are making division where there is none.
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Christianity has been likened to an army, and considered to be "at war" with spiritual enemies. We CANNOT hope to engage the enemy and come away victorious with divided local militias, and leaderships that come from different understandings of what the General (Christ) expects of his warriors. That is precisely what denominationalism is, by virtue of its existence.
But that's just it! Most of us aren't divided. We are different branches, different units, different squads but we are all part of the same army - God's army. I don't understand why you don't get that. My friend Qtman is a different denomination than I am - but I really could care less because I know he is a man of God and is serving the Lord. Hallelujah! THAT'S what matters - not what style of worship is in his church or if we agree on every single thing.
You say so why denominations? I'm saying differences between denominations ONLY matter if you make them matter. We don't make them matter - so why are you? The churches in my area work TOGETHER (you seemed to completely gloss over that) for God's Kingdom. Denomination is nothing more than a description - it is not a divider.
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You need to rethink that motive labeled "simply because" for it is faulted. "Accountability to a group of believers" has nothing to do with it. I am accountable to a group of believers, but we are not divisive. Division is not allowed. It is not a standard approved by Jesus. And it is not practiced within our group.
You are divisive because you will only "play" with those you agree with. How is that ANY different from what you are so vehemently against? Any one who doesn't fit your idea of what the Body is supposed to look like, you cast off and reject. Where do you see that in Scripture? Where does Paul tell groups of believers to reject other believers because they don't walk in lock-step with you? That's not even what denominations (most) do. We embrace other denominations and work together with our fellow believers - we just have a little difference in style and how we operate. That's it. End of story. That's not sin. Look it up in the Bible. You won't find it.
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It is not accountability to a group of believers, it is accountability to a group that establishes what others are to believe and practice based upon the understanding of those who have attained power over others. THAT is wrong and I will have no part of such a scheme.
What is your opinion of the Jerusalem Council in Acts? Or how the early church operated? You do understand that Jesus himself instituted leadership in the Body and that the Apostles set up the guidelines for said leadership? Do you know who leaders are? Believers - believers who are mature in their faith and walk, knowledgeable about the Kingdom and followers of Scripture?
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(theo) You may perceive them as non-essential beliefs and styles, but tell me which is essential in scripture; "That ye all speak the same thing" or "that ye agree in all but the non-essentials?" Which is scriptural? In fact, which is actually believable? If those non-essentials are not essential, why cling to them, why use them to identify the body separately from other differently identified bodies that claim to be the "same body having different non-essentials?"
Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
I think you will find that even within denominations, there are wide ranges of beliefs on these disputable matters. I've yet to go to a single church where everyone walked in lock-step. I don't even agree 100% with everything in my denomination and I WORK for the church and that's OK! Why is it ok? Because the disputable matters are not the big deal you think they are. It's also the reason that the church my church most often joins together with and works with is a Conservative Baptist church (we're AG). What is it to you that we worship in different buildings on Sunday and maybe have a little different flavor and hang a different sign out front? We don't think it's a big deal, so why do you?
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(theo) According to scripture, separation from schism is not schism. Separation from sin is not sin. Separation from power hungry hierarchies is not power hungry hierarchiness. YOU do the math. No matter how you add it up, or what standards you use, it is not the same. If you are divided, and I separate myself from that division, I am not divided and condemned, I am separated and redeemed.
You say po-tay-to
I say po-tah-to
No matter how you state it, you are not separating yourself from division. You are separating yourself from the Body of believers. I am not division. I am part of the Body.
Oh, and you do realize why many denominations started right?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 4:40:12 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3868
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
My question is really addressed to those who think to question my right to assemble where and when I want to, with whom I want to, to worship the Father in the name of the son.
I don't think anyone is questioning your rights to do this. It's not about form, it's about function.
I think the attitude behind your posts is what is being questioned. The heart attitude that implies (but of course never directly states) that members of denominational churches are somehow less spiritual than those in homes or house gatherings. That somehow meeting in a "church" in the traditional sense is somehow not quite good enough.
The form of church should never be as important as the function of church. You and others (myself included) are trying to make the form by which we fellowship/worship more important than the function of teaching, preaching and sharing the gospel with one another, with others and making more disciples.
It's just form...we would be wiser to spend our time on the function.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 4:42:39 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9263
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
My question is really addressed to those who think to question my right to assemble where and when I want to, with whom I want to, to worship the Father in the name of the son.
Like earthless I have not questioned this right. But going back over all the posts it seems you are the only one questioning someone's right to worship as they see fit. I can't count the time you have pointed out the rest of us are participating in evil, pagan ways etc. No one would have a problem with you worshipping as you see fit if it were not for this.
Absolutely! What we are arguing is with your idea that denominations are evil and hence we are participating in evil.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 5:12:02 PM
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modu
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See the Church
"In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature...
And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the begining, the first-born from the dead"
See the Church
"Christ in me, the hope of glory. Whom we preach..."
See the Church
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effective working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."
See the Church
"In whom after ye believed, ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise."
See the Church
In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit."
See the Church
"For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."
See the Church
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation)...Now then we are ambassadors of Christ."
And many more...
This is the Church commission, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Conclusion: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit of Christ.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 5:47:30 PM
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loco79
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Mt 18:15-17
But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican
If the body of believers is the true church, then why be forced to go to "the church?"
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 9:32:43 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5402
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
My question is really addressed to those who think to question my right to assemble where and when I want to, with whom I want to, to worship the Father in the name of the son.
As long as you're not one of those that says if anyone (other than themselves) attend a local church/fellowship they are wrong, not saved, etc.. because if you are.. that is dead wrong of you to do. Because we're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 6:59:52 AM
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Qtman
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Theo let me give you an example.
I mentioned I had traveled for years with a Southern Gospel Quartet. The last group consisted of 1 Methodist, 2 baptist, 1 Pentecostal Holiness, and 1 Assembly of God. Three of these were licensed/ordained ministers. We were on a stage somewhere about 100 nights a year. We closed every concert with an altar call. One of the ministers in the group would do this in conjunction with the pastor of the church we were singing in, if it was a church, or we would invite all ministers to the front if it was not a church. Part of the altar call was telling the people we were not interested in increasing the membership of that particular church but we were sure if that was someone's choice they would be welcomed. If not, they should join the church of their choice. The main thing was their salvation and if anyone present had not accepter Jesus as their personal savior the invitation was extended to them to do so. We would also leave the stage and pray with anyone of any denomination that came forward.
Deviding? I think not.
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Everybody has Eternal Life. But only two Addresses to chose from.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 9:19:20 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
Theo let me give you an example.
The last group consisted of 1 Methodist, 2 baptist, 1 Pentecostal Holiness, and 1 Assembly of God.
Dividing? I think not.
_____________________________
Yes, thank you, I think I see the problem.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 9:30:20 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As long as you're not one of those that says if anyone (other than themselves) attend a local church/fellowship they are wrong, not saved, etc.. because if you are.. that is dead wrong of you to do.
I am not your judge, just one who warns those who may have forgotten.
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" [I Cor 1:10-13]
The first reminder seems to have been inadequate, for Paul reiterates it yet again, calling those who abide in division CARNAL: "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Paul says that the minister by whom you believe is nothing, because it is GOD who gives the increase. Why then do you name yourselves after men's imaginings? "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." [I Cor 3:1-7]
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 9:38:58 AM
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earthless
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Theo,
We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
Hello pot....
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 11:12:42 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9263
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
Theo let me give you an example.
The last group consisted of 1 Methodist, 2 baptist, 1 Pentecostal Holiness, and 1 Assembly of God.
Dividing? I think not.
_____________________________
Yes, thank you, I think I see the problem.
You have a problem with believers working together for the Kingdom of God? Yes, I see the problem as well...
And it's with you.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 11:28:54 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
If you are referencing my remark in post #69 you need to read it again.
It you are referenicng any other souce please note the post number.
In Post # 69 I stated "Then why is it right for you and wrong for me, if we are all doing the same thing?" This in no way is an admission, but rather is a question about equal application of standards.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 3:11:23 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
Theo let me give you an example.
The last group consisted of 1 Methodist, 2 baptist, 1 Pentecostal Holiness, and 1 Assembly of God.
Dividing? I think not.
_____________________________
Yes, thank you, I think I see the problem.
Then for goodness sake please point it out. You have a habit of taking only the part of of a post, scripture too for that matter, and coming to some kind of sick judgement. You totally ignore the part about us working together to reach the lost for Jesus. Surely you can find no fault with that. But then again I somehow think you will.
Do you honestly believe God only talks to you and those who think like you. Do you think/believe He does not talk to the rest of us. If so that is rather arrogant and presumptive on your part.
_____________________________
Everybody has Eternal Life. But only two Addresses to chose from.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/12/2008 4:22:31 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
If you are referencing my remark in post #69 you need to read it again.
It you are referenicng any other souce please note the post number.
In Post # 69 I stated "Then why is it right for you and wrong for me, if we are all doing the same thing?" This in no way is an admission, but rather is a question about equal application of standards.
So then you do not have a problem with me (for example) attending a local church? You don't view that as being unbiblical or against the Lord?
Yes or no answers will suffice.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 7:13:12 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
If you are referencing my remark in post #69 you need to read it again.
It you are referenicng any other souce please note the post number.
In Post # 69 I stated "Then why is it right for you and wrong for me, if we are all doing the same thing?" This in no way is an admission, but rather is a question about equal application of standards.
So then you do not have a problem with me (for example) attending a local church? You don't view that as being unbiblical or against the Lord?
Yes or no answers will suffice.
I am not your judge. I cannot absolve your for your decisions. I cannot approve or disapprove your actions in my lord's name. It is HE you must appease, not me. That should cover it.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 8:09:16 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5402
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference.
If you are referencing my remark in post #69 you need to read it again.
It you are referenicng any other souce please note the post number.
In Post # 69 I stated "Then why is it right for you and wrong for me, if we are all doing the same thing?" This in no way is an admission, but rather is a question about equal application of standards.
So then you do not have a problem with me (for example) attending a local church? You don't view that as being unbiblical or against the Lord?
Yes or no answers will suffice.
I am not your judge. I cannot absolve your for your decisions. I cannot approve or disapprove your actions in my lord's name. It is HE you must appease, not me. That should cover it.
It does. It shows you're answer is contradictory and that your stance is incorrect, does that cover it? You're saying it is wrong for a Christian to, obey the Word, and congregate with other believers. Yet you do the same and say it is OK.
The height of hypocrisy clothed in religious fanaticism.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 1:18:27 PM
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theo_book
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To your post [Post #64]quote:
(earthless) The point is that your house church is just like the church I attend.. just like the church a Pentecostal attends.. just like the church a Lutheran attends, etc..
(theo) I responded[Post # 66] - Then why do all those "churches just like" differ so much? Why divide over names?
to which (earthless) responded[Post # 67] - Because humans are fickle creatures - emotions ebb and flow.
That is why what matters are the core essentials of Christianity. We can disagree on secondary issues (where Christian denominations come from) but we are not divided by them in the sense where we are not all brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.
In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity...
What your fellowship of believers do is church - just like I do on Sunday mornings - just like someone else does on Friday night, Wednesday night, etc..
In post # 69 I responded to your post #67 with "Then why is it right for you and wrong for me, if we are all doing the same thing?"
I DID NOT SAY I AGREED. I said IF WE ARE ALL DOING THE SAME THING, WHY IS IT RIGHT FOR YOU AND WRONG FOR ME?
IT WAS A QUESTION.
In POST # 81 and again in Post # 85 (earthless) STATED "We're attending a local group of born-again believers just like you admitted you also do and you admitted there is no difference."
In post #91 (earthless) states - It does. It shows you're answer is contradictory and that your stance is incorrect, does that cover it? You're saying it is wrong for a Christian to, obey the Word, and congregate with other believers. Yet you do the same and say it is OK.
The height of hypocrisy clothed in religious fanaticism.
You have misstated what I said, and then tried to defeat a strawman argument. I did not say we are doing the same thing, I said (because YOU claimed it was so in post #67) IF we are doing the same thing (YOUR assertion, not mine) why is it right for you and wrong for me?
You still don't get it do you?
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 5:14:35 PM
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Qtman
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Out of all the people who have posted on this thread there does indeed seem to be one that still does not get it. Stand in front of a mirror and take a look at him theo.
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Everybody has Eternal Life. But only two Addresses to chose from.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 6:31:27 PM
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earthless
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Theo - why can't you (in ANY thread) ever just answer direct and simple questions? We're not sitting around in a theological round table. Speak to me like you would to your spouse, to your child, to your mother.
You attend a local church.
So do I.
No difference.
YET you say I am wrong for doing so. That makes absolutely no sense.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 8:06:41 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo - why can't you (in ANY thread) ever just answer direct and simple questions? We're not sitting around in a theological round table. Speak to me like you would to your spouse, to your child, to your mother.
You attend a local church.
So do I.
No difference.
YET you say I am wrong for doing so. That makes absolutely no sense.
I do not say you are wrong for attending a local congregation. I say it is wrong to join in their divisive practices that directly flout Paul's instruction to the contrary. "That there be NO DIVISIONS" among you. He idd not say "That there be no glaring divisions," or "That there be no IMPORTANT divisions," he said that there be NO divisions.
Here, read it for yourself and point out to me where I have misrepresented what Pau said, OR tell me where it does not apply to the divisions of denominationalism.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? [I Cor 1:10-13]
"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" [I Cor 3:1-4]
Please explain to me why division of the type exhibited in denominationalism is not carnal. How can it possibly be right?
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/14/2008 8:10:28 PM
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earthless
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