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RE: Sin Nature - 8/1/2008 11:18:13 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
evry1needsgod,
quote:
And yet, in John 3:16 it says " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So is God a hypocrite?
In one verse, it appears as though God does NOT love everyone, yet the Bible CLEARLY states He does, in not just one verse either.
Thats because you cant figure out in the text that God loves believers out of the world.
The text clarifies itself with.......that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What about un-believers?
All you have to do is look further down in John 3 to see how much God loves them;
36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
That is why Jesus can say in His prayer;
My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
Why can He say that and not be a hypocrite?
Because John 3:16 is clarified to imply believers.
John 3 says this;
For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
So now all you have to figure out is how people out of the world come to believe in Him;
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
It is because God takes people of wrath (those with a sin nature) and makes believers out of them.
He gives people to His Son.
KJB
Did you read the links I posted? If you did, and if you were honest with yourself, you would quickly realize God loves everyone, but most certainly shows his wrath to those who reject Him. When a parent spanks their child, they do not cease to love them. Actually, it is that chastisement that often manifests their love for the child.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 12:33:50 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
No, no, no, no, no!!! I KNEW this would come up. Just because we believe we have a CHOICE (which is supported, again, by TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX VERSES), does not mean we believe God owes us.
Oh, I certainly figured that you dont feel God owes you anything because of your choices. I do believe God owes us.....He owes us just wages.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Why would those that have been saved be told that they were once by nature objects of wrath? For what reason? It is because by nature we are objects of wrath. Naturally that is what we are.
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Why is it that we who were once objects of wrath (like the rest still are) were saved? Do you think it is because we CHOSE to love God? You think that is how and why we were saved? Look at how the text continues;
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
What do you make of that? You think that speaks good of human effort and abililty? Read it in whole;
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
quote:
Did you read the links I posted? If you did, and if you were honest with yourself, you would quickly realize God loves everyone, but most certainly shows his wrath to those who reject Him.
When a parent spanks their child, they do not cease to love them.
Actually, it is that chastisement that often manifests their love for the child.
Nope....did not read the links. The wrath that remains on unbelievers is more than a spank if they end up in everlasting hell. Let me take a wild guess.......you dont believe in hell either?
If you were honest with the text I have given you would know of human inability because human beings are not free but fallen and dead......even though they are living.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 10:01:06 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
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Diolectic,
I am still very interested in knowing what part of Leviticus you wanted me to read. You told me that what I wrote from Mark 7 was unbiblical. Hey...Jesus said it not me. I am not willing to dis-agree with Jesus.
18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 20And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
quote:
That is unbiblical. What makes a man unclean is what he touches. Read Leviticus.
You told me touching unclean things was what makes a man unclean and I should find this source of truth in Leviticus.
quote:
When I say touch it, I mean recieving it into ones heart, choosing to let it stay there.
Can you point me to the part in Leviticus so I can read what was showing your point on all of this?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 3:37:14 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
Of course you wouldn’t because you think that God has a right to act as a tyrant & still remain holy, just & good, just because He is God. You misinterpret Scripture to back what you suppose. God is good if He cast you, myself, and every other person on this planet into everlasting hell. God would not be good if He cast you, myself, and every other person on this planet into everlasting hell, IF they have repented and put their faith in/on HIM and what He says; since God has already made atonement for them.
quote:
quote:
Do you not agree that what you believe seems to be tyranny? Nope. Would you say that any mere b]mortal who sets a standard so high that those who are mandated to reach it, could not, and that one who sets it would condemn all who are un able to reach it?
Would you say that b]mortal is a tyrant?
Would you say that a mortal who will not give that which is needed to meat his requirements, and would condemn for not meeting the requirements? Would you say that mortal is a tyrant?
quote:
I do not see it as MY job or YOUR job to judge God.........period! Would you judge that mortal which I describe above as a tyrant?
quote:
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
I guess people might be able to jump into a live volcano.....people might choose to.
People might choose to commit suicide with a shotgun.
People might choose to have mayo instead of mustard (if they are not living in a land of famine).
........but NO ONE CAN come to Jesus unless it has been granted him from the Father.
No one can come is about human ability and means they can? By what criteria do you think that the Father chooses to give to His Son?
There has been few who will answer this question, I doubt you will, much less answer it correctly.
quote:
quote:
You think that just because no one will choose a certain thing, it means that their nature is contrary to it. Well, ya know what?
It sure would be really NEATO if someone in your clan could demonstrate that your nature is not sinful by doing one simple thing..........never sinning! Still, fact is just because no one will choose a certain thing, it does not mean that their is an inability to it.
quote:
However......it is only a fantasy because the problem with your POV is that you do not see yourself as a fallen creature.
You see yourself as free and not fallen. Where did you get that?
I fell when I first chose to sin as I became accountable.
That is how all mankind falls.
How can it be possible to fall for another person as you imply Adam did?
quote:
You see mankind born upright and ready and willing to choose contrary to what they are.......fallen. Please, quit presuming things which I never revealed.
I see mankind born upright and ready and willing to choose that which they choose to have affections for.
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The point is......why did He have to subject people to death?
He did not have to......but He did. I Already told you in my last post:
Death is not because we are guilty, but only because we are flesh, made with hand.
Paul tells us why In Romans 8. God subjected creation to decay(death) in the hope that one day we will be set free from vanity, futility, temporariness & we will come into the liberty of the glory that the we are waiting for, fullness, fruitfulness, eternity. We are waiting for our adoption, that is, the redemption of our fleshly body. In this hope we are saved. This hope sustains the soul in the midst of trials, and enables us to bear them without a complaint.
quote:
The point is that He can do as He pleases since it happens to be HIS own creation. God pleases to save, forgive, and be rich toward His creation. God please to be kind, be love(agape), He pleases to stay in the bounds of reality which reflects HIM. God pleases to not have double Standards. God pleases to keep the laws of which reflect Him and gave to us to be expected to follow.
You say that God please to create some people for the sole purpose of tormenting in Hell, just because He created them ****s.
You say that God please to create people with sinful natures only to do that which He hates.
You say that God please to create people with sinful natures to make it impossible for His commands to be followed & kept.
You say that God please to set the standard to high so that as He commands us to reach it, He knows it is impossible.
quote:
You post on fearing that man might reach out and live forever? That is what you are saying Romans says is setting people free to do anyways. Yes, but with Glorified Bodies, not made with hands.1Co 15:42, 1Co 15:50, 1Co 15:53, 1Co 15:54
The flesh profits nothing.
So why don’t you tell me all about the flesh and its wonderful ability?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
"But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
So much for the flesh willing and choosing!The flesh does not make choices as you think.
The flesh is only an influencing entity, not the deciding factor.
It ain't the flesh that knows between good and evil.
It ain't the flesh that agrees with Godthat we are sinners needing to repent. It ain't the flesh that repents.
It ain't the flesh that puts faith in/on Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
It ain't the flesh that acknowledges truth and acts upon it.
It ain't the flesh that chooses to walk after the flesh or the spirit.
quote:
quote:
I agree that standard is PERFECTION, God commands it. However, it can not be unattainable in order to be just Go ahead and attain it. All may attain it if the choose to put their faith in Christ so that they may walk after the spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Remember, The flesh does not make choices as you think.
The flesh is only an influencing factor, not the deciding factor.
quote:
Go ahead and attain it.
Who or what is holding YOU back?
Me? God? Satan? George Bush? Co-workers? Obama?
I think you will have only yourself to blame because you are incapable of being perfect. Yes, I blame myself, not my nature as you do.
I don't even blame the flesh, for it can not make me do anything, it can only appeal to my wayward affections as temptations.
The flesh that I give into every once in a while tempts me into sin. This is because I still have small bit of sympathy for those things which are of the flesh.
The ones with out eternal life refuse the spirit so that all they can do is walk after the mindset of the flesh.
quote:
quote:
If we can not reach a standard, it means that it is too high.
Just as reality proves.
When a standard is mandatory to reach, as it is un reachable, it means that is it to high. Either the one who set the standard is a tyrant or it must be set to attain.
Only tyrant would set an unreachable standard, let alone condemning for not reaching the unreachable. I cannot believe you say this sort of stuff! That is because I am attempting to appeal to common since, which seems to be futile in your case.
quote:
I cannot believe you say this sort of stuff!
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The law is great. The law did not come to show us we could do it. It shows us our FALLEN condition. I explained this already too.
Do you just skim over what I have to say only for the sake of arguing?
or are you actually trying to understand?
Your reason for the law is not the one which the Bible gives:
Galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the descendant should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
The law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made separation from God to be evident to us by that which is good(the law);
In other words, the commandment exists so that my unlawful affections would be evidently wicked in contrast to the specific commandment. Romans 7:13
The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ '(Galatians 3:24-25).
''People refuse(not unable to) to have faith, but they will only do works of Law' through the flesh trying to earn Salvation.
People refuse(not unable to) to see that the law should lead them to faith as a ''schoolmaster' '(Galatians 3:24-25)
So that those who choose to follow after the law of righteousness, the spirit of the law by faith, they may receive it by seeking it by faith(Rom 9:30-31 & Heb 4:2) so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:4)
Fallen does not boast of human ability.To be more exact, Fallen does not boast of the flesh.
There is nothing against "human ability in the Scriptures.
quote:
Fallen human beings are seen as HELPLESS and UNGODLY. Helpless in the sense of through the flesh, but not any other way.
Fallen human beings are seen as REBELS, DISOBEDIANT and UNGODLY. To rebel AND DISOBEDIANCE implies ability and refusal.
If you agree that we are rebels and disobedient, how so if we are unable, and incapable.
quote:
All of your other tyranny jumbo is not even worth responding to. Then why do many people hate the god you describe:quote:
Basically, I have been Christian for around 4 years now and I find myself in a troubling situation.
I am questioning the authenticity of my conversion because I could never love the God that Calvinism presents. Therefore, I am starting to feel like I am a reprobate and God just decided to arbitrarily pass me by and bestow His amazing grace upon another.
This is causing my faith to be somewhat shipwreck because currently I am extremely hostile towards a God like that. I guess the Calvinist's would assume God obviously hasn't worked in my life yet. However, I would disagree from my conversion experience, dedication, and love for Christ. It was not until I discovered Calvinism that I began to doubt my salvation, because like I said, I will not (because I am unable, I suppose) worship a God like that.
You see, If Calvinism is true then I will definitely walk away from Christianity and await my "just", eternal punishment according to God's decree.
However, if I believe Calvinism is not true and I willfully persevere in dedication to the Biblical God my entire life, only to find that Calvinism is true and I am indeed not the elect, well I don't want to waste my time/life worshiping a God that hasn't chosen me.
So, I am assuming that since I cannot stand Calvinism's God, Calvinist's clearly see this as evidence that I am not a Christian. That is scary, but if Calvinism is a reality then it is a truth nonetheless.
I wonder how many Arminian's/Molinist's feel the same way as me, or is it more of a hope that Calvinism is untrue, but if it turns out to be true, it would have no affect on your love for God. This was the position I had before, but now I simply cannot take a neutral ground on Calvin's view of God. I am opposed to such a God, and if it is the Biblical God, then I must not be a Christian.
I hope this makes sense, and any feedback would be greatly appreciated. quote:
Thank-you so much for your message and posts in the thread. Indeed, Calvinism has troubled me to the extent that I almost gave up on Christianity. I haven't read through the entire thread, as I have been very busy lately. However, I do look forward to reading your contributions.
Thanks again for the message and prayers, please continue and I shall do likewise.
God bless you. My friend when first converted just about left his faith because of your kind of theology.
I have another friend who will get angry if you mention "Reformed Theology" & Calvinism.
Why is it mumbo "jumbo" if a mere mortal man would act as you portray God as acting, he would be called a tyrant?
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 8/2/2008 10:41:59 PM >
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 4:25:37 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
Nope....did not read the links. The wrath that remains on unbelievers is more than a spank if they end up in everlasting hell. Let me take a wild guess.......you dont believe in hell either?
Great, then now I know you choose to be ignorant. You choose to create doctrine on lack of Scripture, and when one offers a different explanation, you stick your head in the sand. If this is how you operate, I have little left to say.
Oh, and btw, why would you think I don't believe in Hell? When someone disagrees with you, you think they are a member of a cult? Hell is mentioned in 54 different verses throughout Scripture, so yes, of course I believe it. But, of course, you could care less how much Scriptural evidence there is supporting a certain doctrine, because you choose to stick to about 3 passages that you have taken completely out of context to prove an ideology that makes God out to be who He PROMISES NOT TO BE!.
Oh, and that reminds me. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION YET. So far you have showed me nothing but ignorance in this debate, and I am waiting for an explanation to justify your position. Are there things God can not do? If so, can God act like a tyrant, forcing men to do something they are incapable of doing, and then punishing them? Can He do this even after the promises to give us a choice? If these questions are too much of a burden for you, could you AT LEAST answer the first?
quote:
If you were honest with the text I have given you would know of human inability because human beings are not free but fallen and dead......even though they are living.
No, the Scriptures you have provided so far, including the Jacob and Esau passage, has been completely taken out of context. Diolectic has covered many of them, the rest I provided links for you to read, to show you where you have faulted, and you chose to stick your head in the sand. I do not have time to write a book on all the misinterpretations of Scripture you have listed throughout this post, which is why I provided links, and I even copied and pasted a section from one of those links, in case it was too hard for you to click on the link. I was honest with the texts you gave me by researching them. You, however, have not, even after the information WAS PROVIDED FOR YOU. You are so biased toward your beliefs, no one could possibly convince you otherwise. This is extremely dangerous my friend!
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 4:32:37 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
Helpless in the sense of through the flesh, but not any other way.
Fallen human beings are seen as REBELS, DISOBEDIANT and UNGODLY. To rebel AND DISOBEDIANCE implies ability and refusal.
If you agree that we are rebels and disobedient, how so if we are unable, and incapable.
Diolectic, you are brilliant. This is something I wish I had thought of earlier, and if so, I would have asked y ou (KJB) the following questions...
1. Do you believe we are rebellious?
2. Do you believe we fail?
3. Do you believe we are disobedient?
4. Do you believe we sin?
I think it is a safe bet to assume you (KJB) would have answered yes to all the following.
How could "yes" be true if we are forced by God or our sin nature to do those things? How could We rebel, disobey, fail, and/or sin if we have no choice? So really, if I am completely depraved by my sin nature, then I had absolutely no choice to rebel. Having only 1 option is not a choice. If you can only do 1 certain thing, you have no choice whatsoever. You (KJB) say we have only one option, and that is to sin, but that is not what God says.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 4:40:33 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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Diolectic,
quote:
Please, quit presuming things which I never revealed.
Good point.
So enough is enough with the tyrant garbage. 
quote:
By what criteria do you think that the Father chooses to give to His Son?
There has been few who will answer this question, I doubt you will, much less answer it correctly.
Well, why do you ask me if you already suppose my answer will be incorrect?
No one comes to Jesus first so that the Father can give them to His Son after they already came.
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
You can sit there and preach about human ability till the cows come home.......but......NO ONE CAN COME TO ME is human INABILITY.
Why would Jesus say NO ONE CAN COME if people are so full of the ability to come?
There are some people that do come to Him. That is because there is an exception.
No one can come UNLESS. All the Father gives Me will come. You seem to think that all those that are coming are those that the Father will give. What sort of sense would that make? None.
quote:
Still, fact is just because no one will choose a certain thing, it does not mean that their is an inability to it.
"For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Pure and profound human inability.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Step by step.......no one can come.....unless....AND....all.....the Father gives.....will come.
It is not complex.
quote:
Then why do many people hate the god you describe:
Well, I am glad you asked.
Because people NATURALLY hate God as He is. People cannot stand a God that is actually in control of everything. A God that is in control of everything goes against human pride and the natural fallen creature hates that. People naturally like to think of themselves as independent when in reality they are dependent. People would rather worship idols even if they make them up in their heads. When People read Romans 9 for exacty what it says without trying to distort words like "hate", "harden", etc, they hate a God like that. They will try to make the text say all kinds of other things because they have no desire of conforming their minds to plain Scripture. They would rather do anything they possibly can to make plain Scripture conform to their minds and the way they think God should be.
quote:
My friend when first converted just about left his faith because of your kind of theology.
I have another friend who will get angry if you mention "Reformed Theology" & Calvinism.
Why is it mumbo "jumbo" if a mere mortal man would act as you portray God as acting, he would be called a tyrant?
Your friend is not the STANDARD of TRUTH so if he desires to leave TRUTH that is his problem.
We are to preach the TRUTH and we are not commanded to water it down just so it appeals to all the people of the world.
If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
It goes along with this;
Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.
On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 4:51:43 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
Great, then now I know you choose to be ignorant. You choose to create doctrine on lack of Scripture, and when one offers a different explanation, you stick your head in the sand. If this is how you operate, I have little left to say.
I like the idea of having an open mind.....but not so open that truth falls out and all sorts of junk comes in.
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
You were dead.
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
By NATURE we were objects of wrath? I thought you kept pushing the idea that by nature all humans were objects His love? It says "by nature". That means we have a nature. By nature we were not objects of love. By nature we were objects of wrath...like the rest.
How do people come out of this fallen and sorry condition? I suppose you say they CHOOSE to love God because there are just so many choices to choose from?
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
quote:
If this is how you operate, I have little left to say.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 5:08:27 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
I like the idea of having an open mind.....but not so open that truth falls out and all sorts of junk comes in.
So 226 different verses is junk??? Hmm...
BTW, still waiting on that answer. If you wish not to answer, could you at least tell me why? I'm sure there are others here, including lurkers, that would like an answer on your part. The ball is in your court now buddy. Don't run away.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 7:56:11 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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evry1needsgod,
The question you ask has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand which is in regard to the matter of people having a sin nature and what a sin nature has or has not done. This topic goes to the heart of human ability/inability and has to do with how much fallen is fallen.
If you like, post one verse at a time and go through them all one by one with a commentary. 
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
It says we have a sinful nature. This text alone goes totally against the POV that Diolectic preaches which is the one you claim to hold so dear as you constantly agree with him.
By this sin nature we were objects of wrath. Why are we not objects of wrath anymore? You think it is because we chose to love God? You think it was because of our choices? The text earlier shows how we acted in regard to this sin nature.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Notice the text does not say we were free-willed and obedient? How exactly did we live? Read it over again and see how much it preaches on glorious human ability.
Is it that we chose to love God? I can find other text showing you that; "it was not that we loved God.......but that God loved us"....
Here is the how and why we were made alive;
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It is simple. He had unmerited favor on objects that by nature were deserving of His wrath. It is because of His great love for "us" (those that have been saved) and it was all of His "grace" (unmerited favor).
It stabs right to the heart of human will, effort, or ability.....and knocks all the wind out of the free-will sails.
The wind may be knocked out of free-will sails but people still dont give up. They start up their free-will motors to keep the free-will POV running. One day the gas will run out and truth will be laid bare.
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 8:53:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
evry1needsgod,
The question you ask has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand which is in regard to the matter of people having a sin nature and what a sin nature has or has not done. This topic goes to the heart of human ability/inability and has to do with how much fallen is fallen.
If you like, post one verse at a time and go through them all one by one with a commentary.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
It says we have a sinful nature. This text alone goes totally against the POV that Diolectic preaches which is the one you claim to hold so dear as you constantly agree with him.
By this sin nature we were objects of wrath. Why are we not objects of wrath anymore? You think it is because we chose to love God? You think it was because of our choices? The text earlier shows how we acted in regard to this sin nature.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Notice the text does not say we were free-willed and obedient? How exactly did we live? Read it over again and see how much it preaches on glorious human ability.
Is it that we chose to love God? I can find other text showing you that; "it was not that we loved God.......but that God loved us"....
Here is the how and why we were made alive;
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It is simple. He had unmerited favor on objects that by nature were deserving of His wrath. It is because of His great love for "us" (those that have been saved) and it was all of His "grace" (unmerited favor).
It stabs right to the heart of human will, effort, or ability.....and knocks all the wind out of the free-will sails.
The wind may be knocked out of free-will sails but people still dont give up. They start up their free-will motors to keep the free-will POV running. One day the gas will run out and truth will be laid bare.
KJB
The question has everything to do with the topic. If there are things God can not do, then we can study Scriptures with that in mind, realizing God will be fair and not tyranical. I still need an answer...
And btw. I've stated at least once, for sure, that I do believe we have a sin nature. I have said that that sin nature is an overwhelming predisposition, or tendency, to do wrong. This is one thing Diolectic and I disagree on, He does not believe we were born with a sin nature, I do however. You need to read my posts carefully so you do not understand my position. I feel you are skimming and not reading. BUT, what you and I DO NOT agree on is to what extent our sin nature affects us. Your view is, IMO, not Scriptural, because it would go against God's Nature and the promises He has made with us. Hence my question! So yes, I still need an answer, and it is completely on topic.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 9:35:34 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
The question has everything to do with the topic. If there are things God can not do, then we can study Scriptures with that in mind, realizing God will be fair and not tyranical. I still need an answer...
Here is your answer;
Everyone who lives on earth is nothing compared to him.
He does whatever he wishes with the army of heaven and with those who live on earth.
There is no one who can oppose him or ask him, "What are you doing?"
And.....He is not a tyrant.
quote:
And btw. I've stated at least once, for sure, that I do believe we have a sin nature.
I have noticed that.
quote:
I have said that that sin nature is an overwhelming predisposition, or tendency, to do wrong.
I have also noticed that. Do you suppose that since human beings have a sin nature they also have the nature to do NO wrong?
quote:
This is one thing Diolectic and I disagree on, He does not believe we were born with a sin nature, I do however. You need to read my posts carefully so you do not understand my position.
I have been reading your posts and understanding them. I already know you do not agree with Diolectic on the sin nature even though you say things like;
quote:
Diolectic:
My respect for you is increasing daily. This statment is absolutely profound. I thought about how to elaborate on this, but I do not believe any amount of "elaboration" would do justice. I pray all here ponder on this. Guilt does not exist with an inability, for inability nullifies accountability.
quote:
Diolectic, you are brilliant. This is something I wish I had thought of earlier, and if so, I would have asked y ou (KJB) the following questions...
I notice you say nothing about his POV on the human sin nature.
quote:
I feel you are skimming and not reading. BUT, what you and I DO NOT agree on is to what extent our sin nature affects us. Your view is, IMO, not Scriptural, because it would go against God's Nature and the promises He has made with us. Hence my question! So yes, I still need an answer, and it is completely on topic.
I understand your position and you know it. That is why we have such blatant dis-agreement.
I have read your first post on "brain candy" and when I take that entire post in context of the entire message in that post I agree with NONE of it. There is ONE reason why people will be held accountable. It is because God has the power to hold people accountable and He says He will. None will escape Him and none will have any excuse as to all the causes of their sin.
Adam tried to pass the buck and it did not work then....and it will not work later.
Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Instead of just saying; "Yes I am guilty"........Its like he tries to blah blah blah; "Well, it had a lot to do with You putting that woman here".
You are right though. I dont think you understand and know about the extent of the sin nature. You feel that if people are not able to be perfect they should not be condemned for not being perfect. You feel that if God was to condemn people for what they are incapable of doing, He would be a tyrant.
You feel that if God was to condemn all of creation for sin even though they cant help but sin, and then He chose to save some out of what He condemned by His own choice irregardless of the creature and its inability, He would be a tyrant.
I do not agree. The basis of your POV has to do with that thing you brought up and try to promote...free-will! The only reason why people promote free-will is because it always says something good about their will.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/2/2008 11:23:38 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
quote:
Please, quit presuming things which I never revealed. Good point.
So enough is enough with the tyrant garbage. It's not that I'm presuming that you describe God as a tyrant. it is a fact that you do.
Why do you describe &/or prtrya Him as one?
quote:
quote:
By what criteria do you think that the Father chooses to give to His Son?
There has been few who will answer this question, I doubt you will, much less answer it correctly. Well, why do you ask me if you already suppose my answer will be incorrect?
I was hoping thgat you would suprise me.
Pleas, answer the question.
By what criteria does the Father chooses those which He gives to His Son?
quote:
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." I don't disagree to this, However, it is them who
hear from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Christ(John 6:45)
Man must choose to hear from the Father and not turn a deaf ear.
When thay choose to hear from the Father, not turning a deaf ear, the Father will give them to His son.
quote:
You can sit there and preach about human ability till the cows come home.......but......NO ONE CAN COME TO ME is human INABILITY You can sit there and preach about human inability till the cows come home.
However, you think that the fleash is the descideing factor in the mind and will of man.
You are in error in this.
I sgree to the inability of the flesh, which is biblical, however, all mankind is responcible, NOT INVALIDS!
The flesh is invalid, but not the man.
You have not answered these questions:
There is no way in reality, why do you say there is with God?
Does God work within the bound of reality?
Is sin not a choice?
Why would God give us a nature that would cause us to do the opposite of which HE commands us?
Why would God be angry with anyone for not obeying, if HE knew they couldn't in the first place?(that would actualy not be disobediance, nor rebelion, nothing to be angry about)
How is man is accountable for that which he does not choose?
Where is mans responcibilty, our guilt, our choice in the matter if we are pre-condemed?
How is sin our own fault if it is unavoidable?
How is guilt ever from an inability?
How does something unavoidable merit condemnation?
If something is not right in reality, how is it right with God?
Why would God subject His beloved creation to that which He hates for it to work against Him?
Would anyone be good for condemning someone for that which can not be avoided?
Would you say that any mere mortal who sets a standard so high that those who are mandated to reach it, could not, and that one who sets it would condemn all who are un able to reach it?
Would you say that mortal is a tyrant?
Would you say that a mortal who will not give that which is needed to meat his requirements, and would condemn for not meeting the requirements?
Would you say that mortal is a tyrant?
quote:
quote:
quote:
All of your other tyranny jumbo is not even worth responding to. Then why do many people hate the god you describe Well, I am glad you asked.
Because people NATURALLY hate God as He is. They are christian who hate this God you describe.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 1:54:45 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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Diolectic;
quote:
By what criteria does the Father chooses those which He gives to His Son?
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/original/1689bc.html
Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
quote:
Man must choose to hear from the Father and not turn a deaf ear.
When thay choose to hear from the Father, not turning a deaf ear, the Father will give them to His son.
You are putting the wrong part first. First a person must belong to God. If a person does not belong to God they are unable to hear.
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
The things of God are unclear to the natural man. They are unable to hear (understand).
47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The people that belong to God (the elect) hear what He says.
We dont hear and understand first.......then belong to God. It takes the work of God before people will even grasp the truth. A natural man does not even accept things of the Spirit of God. The person must first become un-natural or made alive.
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
The natural man does not choose to turn his ears to God. They naturally choose to turn their ears away because to them it is all nothing but foolishness and he cannot understand such things. It is meaningless.
It would be tantamount to you telling all the ants in a hill containing fire-ants that they should bow down and worship you or you will stomp on them. They have no clue. They dont care. It means nothing. They will probably keep on as rebels and bite your feet and legs but none of them will turn and bow.
You could stomp on a few here and there to show you mean exactly what you say and they will more than likely still go about biting your feet and legs. In the end....unless you can change the ants you will end up stomping on them all. What the ants need is pure mercy if they are to survive. And no.....it is not meant to be a perfect analogy.
quote:
I sgree to the inability of the flesh, which is biblical, however, all mankind is responcible, NOT INVALIDS!
The flesh is invalid, but not the man.
The natural man does not accept....he cannot understand. Inability.
quote:
You have not answered these questions:
There is no way in reality, why do you say there is with God?
Does God work within the bound of reality?
Is sin not a choice?
Why would God give us a nature that would cause us to do the opposite of which HE commands us?
Why would God be angry with anyone for not obeying, if HE knew they couldn't in the first place?(that would actualy not be disobediance, nor rebelion, nothing to be angry about)
How is man is accountable for that which he does not choose?
Where is mans responcibilty, our guilt, our choice in the matter if we are pre-condemed?
How is sin our own fault if it is unavoidable?
How is guilt ever from an inability?
How does something unavoidable merit condemnation?
If something is not right in reality, how is it right with God?
Why would God subject His beloved creation to that which He hates for it to work against Him?
Would anyone be good for condemning someone for that which can not be avoided?
Would you say that any mere mortal who sets a standard so high that those who are mandated to reach it, could not, and that one who sets it would condemn all who are un able to reach it?
Would you say that mortal is a tyrant?
Would you say that a mortal who will not give that which is needed to meat his requirements, and would condemn for not meeting the requirements?
Would you say that mortal is a tyrant?
I think I have answered them;
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Many people would think that a statement like that shows a tyranical God and that is we have the following question asked;
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Why does He still find fault with people when people cannot resist His will and He hardened them? Why does He blame people for having hard hearts if He made them hard?
That is the point of the questions at hand because the previous statements of loving and hating were not watered down mush.
God chose to love one person over another person before they were born and before they did anything.
It was all according to His election and there is NO injustice with God.
The question of finding fault is also answered.
Why does He still find fault when no one can resist His will?
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
And that is how I have been answering you.
It is not YOUR job or MY job to judge God and His actions in showing mercy or making hard hearts.
Who are you O man? Are you going to tell God how He is supposed to be running His creation and that if He does not do things your way and have mercy on everybody equally you will consider Him a tyrant?
A lot of good that will do you!
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