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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 1:26:50 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
In a sense, you are right, but predestination is the prominent doctrine taught in Calvinism, and it belongs in the Calvinism vs Arminianism One Stop Thread. I was simply warning you because I do not wish for the moderators to shut down this thread for discussing what is meant for a different thread.
Total depravity, predestination, and election, are all things that are taught by many mainstream Christian denominations. I am Baptist. They are not topics reserved only for "Calvinists".
This is what you said and as far as I know was the first post of anything relating to Calvinism;
quote:
Now, the Bible does tell us that everyone sins. This is true, but this does not mean everyone was born a sinner, totally depraved, as Calvinists would like you to think. If this were true, my free-will and accountability would be non-existent, because one who is totally depraved can do nothing about it, and would therefor not be held accountable.
Why even mention Calvinists in the first place?
Why dont you say "Baptists"?
I have merely tried to stay on course with the thread and all the things that are brought up in the thread.
As for moderators....they have the right and authority to shut down threads, move threads, delete posts, portions of threads, portions of posts, warn members, or ban members with or without warning as they deem appropriate and at their sole discretion.
I am in full agreement with TOS 17 (the proper way to make a grievance), TOS 19, and Moderator Functions.
I think one main issue is that you do not see mankind as deeply fallen as I do.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 2:39:45 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
evry1needsgod,
quote:
In a sense, you are right, but predestination is the prominent doctrine taught in Calvinism, and it belongs in the Calvinism vs Arminianism One Stop. I was simply warning you because I do not wish for the moderators to shut down this thread for discussing what is meant for a different thread.
Total depravity, predestination, and election, are all things that are taught by many mainstream Christian denominations. I am Baptist. They are not topics reserved only for "Calvinists".
This is what you said and as far as I know was the first post of anything relating to Calvinism;
quote:
Now, the Bible does tell us that everyone sins. This is true, but this does not mean everyone was born a sinner, totally depraved, as Calvinists would like you to think. If this were true, my free-will and accountability would be non-existent, because one who is totally depraved can do nothing about it, and would therefor not be held accountable.
Why even mention Calvinists in the first place?
Why dont you say "Baptists"?
I have merely tried to stay on course with the thread and all the things that are brought up in the thread.
As for moderators....they have the right and authority to shut down threads, move threads, delete posts, portions of threads, portions of posts, warn members, or ban members with or without warning as they deem appropriate and at their sole discretion.
I am in full agreement with TOS 17 (the proper way to make a grievance), TOS 19, and Moderator Functions.
KJB
Fair enough.
quote:
I think one main issue is that you do not see mankind as deeply fallen as I do.
Well, DUH!  And one main issue is that you fail to see the choices God has given you, and you fail to comprehend this amazing, loving blessing bestowed to you by God. You are right, I do fail to see we are completely and totally depraved, void of any choice on out part, because it is not in Scripture. So ya, I fail to see things that are not in Scripture.
However, I do not believe mankind is perfect, and I do not believe any person will live a perfect life EVER. Even infants sin. The Bible says "All have sinned and come short..." and this shows the completely wretched state all mankind is in, and it shows us how wicked and evil we are, and in need of Jesus Christ's salvation. But "All have sinned..." implies an ACTION on our part. WE HAVE A CHOICE. If I was born a sinner by Adam's mistake, then I personally have not sinned. To sin is to ACT in disobedience to God. Sorry, you can't get around this simple truth.
So yes, I do believe we are as deeply fallen as you believe, but I believe this is a consequence of our own sinful choices, not by a force we can not control. If so, I could murder someone, claim "This is how I was made. There is nothing I can do about it" and the courts could not punish me. Punishment is a result of MY CHOICES, not my sin nature. No where in Scripture does God hold anyone accountable for something they CAN NOT do. He hold them accountable for what they WILL NOT, or CHOOSE NOT to do. This is not the person God promised us He would be!
And again, you have not answered my question yet KJB. Are there things God can not do?
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 4:37:51 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
Well, DUH!
LOL.....now that is a good response and one a guy like me can relate to! 
quote:
Are there things God can not do?
Would you please answer it for me out of kindness?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 7:03:33 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Diolectic;
quote:
By what criteria does the Father chooses those which He gives to His Son?
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/original/1689bc.html
Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 ) You did not give criteria, all that you gave were arbitrary reasons. So please, give the criteria that God chooses to elect.
Or are you going to let mr be right about you?
quote:
quote:
Man must choose to hear from the Father and not turn a deaf ear.
When thay choose to hear from the Father, not turning a deaf ear, the Father will give them to His son. You are putting the wrong part first. First a person must belong to God. If a person does not belong to God they are unable to hear. John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
It was those that belonged to God that wouldn't hear, But as many as did hear him & receive Him, to them, HE gave he the right to become the children of God, even to them that chose to believe on his name(John 1:12)
quote:
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
The things of God are unclear to the natural man. They are unable to hear (understand). No, the things of the spirit of God are unclear to the natural man. The natural man is able to know the things of God Romans 1:20. Which are clearly seen, that is how they are without excuse.
There is a diference between the things of God verses the things of the Spirit of God 1Corinth 2:14.
quote:
47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The people that belong to God (the elect) hear what He says. Tell me the unarbitrary criteria for election.
quote:
We dont hear and understand first.......then belong to God. It takes the work of God before people will even grasp the truth. A natural man does not even accept things of the Spirit of God. The person must first become un-natural or made alive. Sounds like your saying that one needs to be saved before he will get saved. IOW,
One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can obey.
Or
One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can choose to do that which is evidently the right thing to do.
Why do you think that the unsaved can make moral choices all the time but not one to repent?
Repentance is a moral choice.
quote:
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
The natural man does not choose to turn his ears to God. They naturally choose to turn their ears away because to them it is all nothing but foolishness and he cannot understand such things. It is meaningless.
It would be tantamount to you telling all the ants in a hill containing fire-ants that they should bow down and worship you or you will stomp on them. They have no clue. They dont care. It means nothing. They will probably keep on as rebels and bite your feet and legs but none of them will turn and bow. Those ants would not be rebels if they couldn't understand, they would'n deserve the wrath of my stomping them, what are you talking about.
In order to rebel/disobey, one needs to be able but willingly refuse.
Therefore, you have God condemning invalids for the reason of being invalids by order of creation, not by choice, this is tyranical!!!
You also have this god you discribe, creating b@stards for the sole purpose of tormenting eternaly.
This is sadistic!!!
You also have this god you discribe, arbitrarily being partial on some while hating others for no reason other than He takes plesre in it.
quote:
You could stomp on a few here and there to show you mean exactly what you say and they will more than likely still go about biting your feet and legs. In the end....unless you can change the ants you will end up stomping on them all. What the ants need is pure mercy if they are to survive. And no.....it is not meant to be a perfect analogy. This god you talk about is not merciful, because he refuses to give that which is needed to obey him. This god you talk about is in fact a tyrant because he creates them to go to hell, unless he arbitrarily has prtiality on a few.
quote:
quote:
I agree to the inability of the flesh, which is biblical, however, all mankind is responcible, NOT INVALIDS!
The flesh is invalid, but not the man. The natural man does not accept....he cannot understand. Inability. I said that I agree to this already, why are you pushing the point?
The diference is, unsaved are able to understand he things of God, but not things of the Spirit of God.
Through the things of God, such as creation and all other proofes of God, the unsaved are able to know there is a God which created them.
The unsaved do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.
Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them(Rom 2:14,15)
quote:
Why does He still find fault with people when people cannot resist His will and He hardened them? Why does He blame people for having hard hearts if He made them hard?
That is the point of the questions at hand because the previous statements of loving and hating were not watered down mush.
God chose to love one person over another person before they were born and before they did anything. Romans9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls
This is about Israel, not personal salvation.
The purpose of God is to bring about a liniage for His SEED and a holy remenant.
quote:
It was all according to His election and there is NO injustice with God. Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Gen 25:23
Two nations are in her womb, It's not that God hates Esau personaly, not that God doesn't want to save him.
The reason why the Spirit says this is because it is to Israel the nation, not the person of Israel which is Jacob. Mal 1:1-2
quote:
The question of finding fault is also answered.
Why does He still find fault when no one can resist His will?
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
And that is how I have been answering you.
It is not YOUR job or MY job to judge God and His actions in showing mercy or making hard hearts. This verse is not saying that...
The way to understand this verse is in context with what it's talking about.
16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
This verse is pointing out that man's favorite is not always God's favorite.
Abraham willed or desired that it the promise might be given to Ishmael.
Isaac also willed or desired that the promise might be given to Esau.
This verse is in context with Abraham willing that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves Genesis 17:18
Moreover, in Genesis 27 Isaac is willing for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "running" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.
17 For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God kept his heart hard.
God could have shown His power in Pharaoh, if Pharaoh let Israel go.
It was Pharaoh's choice to harden his heart first, so it was him who choice the way God would show HIS power in him.
18 Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
1Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?
19 You will say then unto me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
20 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
IOW
Why did You make me like this?
The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own stuborn ways.
21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
God would not creat vessles of wrath from birth. He only reformes them as such out of judment.
Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.
The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but use the same.
The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.
Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
quote:
Who are you O man? Are you going to tell God how He is supposed to be running His creation and that if He does not do things your way and have mercy on everybody equally you will consider Him a tyrant?
A lot of good that will do you! No, I do not to tell God how He is supposed to be running His creation, however, I am not questioning GOD, but your theology/doctrine.
quote:
quote:
My friend when first converted just about left his faith because of your kind of theology.
I have another friend who will get angry if you mention "Reformed Theology" & Calvinism.
Do your friends have free-will or not? If his will is so FREE to choose I say he should freely choose not to get angry. He would have to use his spirit part and not his flesh or man part to do that. That is like saying, one is able to choose to love the one who is raping hos wife.
Choose to love a tyrant?
You asked why couldn't they who hate this god which you describe just choose from their free will to love him?
I will ask you, then why? What has this god that you descibe done to be worthy of praise & worship? What has he done to be loved?
quote:
He can also choose to leave the faith or not. I am sure there is something inside of him that will motivate him one way or another. That would be the truth of who God is which will motivate him
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I can promise this.
If your friend has been saved nothing will separate him from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ our Lord......and that would include Reformed Calvinists.
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. True, however, offence will separate him from faith, along with a false gospel which messes with the personhood of Jesus, another gospel.
quote:
Reformed Calvinists are just like your friend............created things.
Remember, your friend is not the standard of truth so if he desires to leave truth that is his issue You are implying that your theology is the truth.
In fact, it don’t even line up with reality, truth does.
How is one suppose to believe anything that does not line up with reality?
quote:
We are to preach the truth and we are never commanded to water it down just so it appeals to all the people that don’t like it as it ruffles their feathers and makes them hate God. There are going to be many people that hate God. It is because they see HIM as you describe.
However, if one describes GOD as HE who holds to justice as reality has it.
If one describes GOD as within commune sense, logic & reality, God that makes sense...ect...
If you describe GOD as one who loves every single being which HE created and has made away for them to be reconciled to HIM...ect...
if you do that, anyone would see HIM as one who is worthy to put ones affections on & to trust.
quote:
If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
I am not going to preach other than what I can see as plain and clear Scripture truth just to appeal to the stinking world in which I was pulled out of. The way you describe God, that which you see as plain and clear Scripture does not line up with reality, justice, logic & commone sence.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 7:35:04 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
Would you please answer it for me out of kindness?
May I ask you why I have to answer my own question? I asked YOU because I want to know what YOU think the answer is. I am not asking because I do not know the answer, I am asking because I want to know what YOUR believe the answer is. I gave you Scripture to read, so the answer should be quite clear. Please answer the question.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 8:30:33 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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Dioletic,
quote:
You did not give criteria, all that you gave were arbitrary reasons. So please, give the criteria that God chooses to elect.
Criteria: a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criteria
Here is what I posted;
according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love
That is the standard on which His decision is based.
quote:
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
It was those that belonged to God that wouldn't hear, But as many as did hear him & receive Him, to them, HE gave he the right to become the children of God, even to them that chose to believe on his name(John 1:12)
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise.......
Please let us continue in John 1. The ones that heard Him are;
.....children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
That is because sinful man is so messed up and fallen he needs to be born again.
quote:
No, the things of the spirit of God are unclear to the natural man. The natural man is able to know the things of God Romans 1:20. Which are clearly seen, that is how they are without excuse.
There is a diference between the things of God verses the things of the Spirit of God 1Corinth 2:14.
How do you imply that they are able when Jesus says they are unable?
The text reads; 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
If they were so able I am sure Jesus could have asked; Why is my language not clear to you when you are so able to hear what I say?
quote:
Tell me the unarbitrary criteria for election.
Sinful man is so lost in sin that he has to be elected, otherwise all would perish.
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
The criteria is all according to God and it depends on Him showing mercy to whom He wills. That IS the criteria. My answer is not going to change the more times you ask me.
quote:
Sounds like your saying that one needs to be saved before he will get saved. IOW,
One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can obey.
Here is that term "sinful nature" again;
6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
The sinful mind is death and does not submit because it is hostile......and nor can it submit. That is inability.
Why do you think Ephesians 2 says you were dead?
"Dead" is not trying to promote the will of man as if he powerfully turns to God.
You think that it implies you submitted your mind to God of your own will and were not hostile and just started believing?
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
So what controlled the sinful mind and caused it to submit to the gospel if turning to the gospel pleases God?
quote:
or;
One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can choose to do that which is evidently the right thing to do.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Now.....you were either a sinful man or you were something very special and different than the rest of us?
Which is it?
It is in a nut shell the same thing that Ephesians is telling us;
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
We were not choosing God....we were not submitting to God....we were not choosing the right things....we were not believing....we were not alive....we were not pleasing God....we were not friendly to God if we were hostile....and we were disobedient which is totally opposite of being obedient.
So, I think I get the picture!
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
So yes! I think the human will stinks and NEEDS to be CONTROLLED by the Spirit of God if the human will is going to please God and turn to God.
quote:
Why do you think that the unsaved can make moral choices all the time but not one to repent?
Repentance is a moral choice.
Making all sorts of moral choices has nothing to do with the ability of turning to Jesus Christ.
quote:
Those ants would not be rebels if they couldn't understand, they would'n deserve the wrath of my stomping them, what are you talking about.
In order to rebel/disobey, one needs to be able but willingly refuse.
Therefore, you have God condemning invalids for the reason of being invalids by order of creation, not by choice, this is tyranical!!!
You also have this god you discribe, creating b@stards for the sole purpose of tormenting eternaly.
This is sadistic!!!
You also have this god you discribe, arbitrarily being partial on some while hating others for no reason other than He takes plesre in it.
"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
And God was involved in the creation of both.
quote:
This god you talk about is not merciful, because he refuses to give that which is needed to obey him. This god you talk about is in fact a tyrant because he creates them to go to hell, unless he arbitrarily has prtiality on a few.
I think you should pull yourself together. Love the truth.
It says it does not depend on men and their desires or efforts.
I take that to mean His mercy is not dependent on man and what man does or does not do in any way.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort...but on God's mercy.
quote:
Romans9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls
This is about Israel, not personal salvation.
The purpose of God is to bring about a liniage for His SEED and a holy remenant.
If it is all about Israel why are we told;
it does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort
It is in regard to individual men just like the king of Egypt was an individual man.
quote:
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Gen 25:23
Two nations are in her womb, It's not that God hates Esau personaly, not that God doesn't want to save him.
The reason why the Spirit says this is because it is to Israel the nation, not the person of Israel which is Jacob. Mal 1:1-2
Oh...so it is ok for God to hate an entire nation as long as He does not hate one individual of a nation? 
It is about individuals. Individuals make up groups.
Jesus laid His life down for the sheep. The sheep consist of individuals that make up a group.
All are sinners and have turned away.
That is because of the sin nature you keep avoiding.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 8:40:15 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
May I ask you why I have to answer my own question?
I asked YOU because I want to know what YOU think the answer is.
I am not asking because I do not know the answer, I am asking because I want to know what YOUR believe the answer is.
I gave you Scripture to read, so the answer should be quite clear.
Please answer the question.
May I ask you why I have to answer your own question? I dont think you really want my answers to be honest. If the answer is so clear and you have it......just answer it and get it off your chest! Post it in large font if you wish. Make whatever point you have known as you tell me what you want me to know.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 9:10:56 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
May I ask you why I have to answer your own question? I dont think you really want my answers to be honest.
I'm laughing hysterically! Are you serious?! I want you to answer my question because that is what people do when they debate. It is an honest question of which I would like an honest answer.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 10:56:04 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1681
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
I'm laughing hysterically!
Glad you are having fun. It is nice when we can have fun in these forums.
While you are thinking of an answer to give here are some wonderful verses to ponder;
9Who [is so blind as] not to recognize in all these [that good and evil are promiscuously scattered throughout nature and human life] that it is God's hand which does it [and God's way]?
10In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.
11Is it not the task of the ear to discriminate between [wise and unwise] words, just as the mouth distinguishes [between desirable and undesirable] food?
12With the aged [you say] is wisdom, and with length of days comes understanding.
13But [only] with [God] are [perfect] wisdom and might; He [alone] has [true] counsel and understanding.
14Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be built again; He shuts a man in, and none can open.
15He withholds the waters, and the land dries up; again, He sends forth [rains], and they overwhelm the land or transform it.
16With Him are might and wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are His [and in His power].
17He leads [great and scheming] counselors away stripped and barefoot and makes the judges fools [in human estimation, by overthrowing their plans].
18He looses the fetters [ordered] by kings and has [the] waistcloth [of a slave] bound about their [own] loins.
19He leads away priests as spoil, and men firmly seated He overturns.
20He deprives of speech those who are trusted and takes away the discernment and discretion of the aged.
21He pours contempt on princes and loosens the belt of the strong [disabling them, bringing low the pride of the learned].
22He uncovers deep things out of darkness and brings into light black gloom and the shadow of death.
23He makes nations great, and He destroys them; He enlarges nations [and then straitens and shrinks them again], and leads them [away captive].
24He takes away understanding from the leaders of the people of the land and of the earth, and causes them to wander in a wilderness where there is no path.
25They grope in the dark without light, and He makes them to stagger and wander like a drunken man.
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/3/2008 11:07:51 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
evry1needsgod,
quote:
I'm laughing hysterically!
Glad you are having fun. It is nice when we can have fun in these forums.
While you are thinking of an answer to give here are some wonderful verses to ponder;
9Who [is so blind as] not to recognize in all these [that good and evil are promiscuously scattered throughout nature and human life] that it is God's hand which does it [and God's way]?
10In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.
11Is it not the task of the ear to discriminate between [wise and unwise] words, just as the mouth distinguishes [between desirable and undesirable] food?
12With the aged [you say] is wisdom, and with length of days comes understanding.
13But [only] with [God] are [perfect] wisdom and might; He [alone] has [true] counsel and understanding.
14Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be built again; He shuts a man in, and none can open.
15He withholds the waters, and the land dries up; again, He sends forth [rains], and they overwhelm the land or transform it.
16With Him are might and wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are His [and in His power].
17He leads [great and scheming] counselors away stripped and barefoot and makes the judges fools [in human estimation, by overthrowing their plans].
18He looses the fetters [ordered] by kings and has [the] waistcloth [of a slave] bound about their [own] loins.
19He leads away priests as spoil, and men firmly seated He overturns.
20He deprives of speech those who are trusted and takes away the discernment and discretion of the aged.
21He pours contempt on princes and loosens the belt of the strong [disabling them, bringing low the pride of the learned].
22He uncovers deep things out of darkness and brings into light black gloom and the shadow of death.
23He makes nations great, and He destroys them; He enlarges nations [and then straitens and shrinks them again], and leads them [away captive].
24He takes away understanding from the leaders of the people of the land and of the earth, and causes them to wander in a wilderness where there is no path.
25They grope in the dark without light, and He makes them to stagger and wander like a drunken man.
KJB
I want an answer from you! Why is that so hard?! I don't get it. Just say yes or no. Either will do. OR, if you explain the point you are trying to make with the Scripture you provide, perhaps your explanation will in turn answer my question. PLEASE stop ignoring my question. It has everything to do with the topic, and I'm slowly becoming impatient. Kindly answer my question, and we can move on. Ok?
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/4/2008 9:27:00 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Diolectic,
I know we both do not agree with each other on many issues but I still think this is a kool thread you started.
I know people are divided on the extent of mans fallen condition.
The sin nature and things related to it is a neat topic.
KJB I'm glad you think do too.
Are you actually trying to understand, or just defending your stance?
I am actually trying to unbderstand how this god you discribe can not be a tyrant in real life.
Because if a mere mortal man was to to as you discribe God doing, all mankind would deem him as I do.
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What is the "Sin nature" if natures are to serve purpose.
If ones nature is what someone is suposed to be used for, what is the so called sin nauter? I am not sure what you mean by natures to serve a purpose? The nature of a plant or the purpose of the plant is to grow(mature) & to bear fruit.
Knowing this, our sin nature or our purpose is to sin.
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Rom 1:26b ...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against [the] natureal [use]:
It says here that they were going against their "sin" nature. I dont think the text is trying to say it is natural for women to be with women.
I dont know how we could read that into it. So, you mean to say that it is natural for man to sin, because sin is our nature.
For women to be with a women is sin & un natural.
But you say it is natural for us to sin but sin is un natural.
I don't get it.
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I am thinking it is speaking more about the idea that God abandoned these people. Why? If our nature is sin & sin is natural, then they were only doing what was
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Although it is natural for man to be with woman (as God intended) the people were doing un-natural things because they were pleasing the sinful desires of their hearts.
I think that is the point being made How is following our sin nature un-natural?
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It started from the bad desires which were in the heart Bad desires are natural, because we have a sin nature.
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God just left them be with no restraint.
People do not engage in sexual perversions unless the outward act originated somewhere first.
The acts originate first in the sinful desires of the heart (because the heart has sinful desires). But, all along, you were saying that the sinful desires of the heart are from a sin nature.
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What if I as a mere mortal was to go to some African country and take some young boy under my wing with the sole intent to raise this boy up to be very strong, very powerful, very brave, and a leader of a gigantic nation, just so I could destroy him?
What if my purpose to raise the boy up to be a powerful king was just so I could show my mighty power to people of the earth as I destroyed the same one I raised up?
What would you think of me, a mere mortal if I was to really to go out and do such a thing. I would say that your sick in the head.
Realy.
ANy one with that kind of point to prove would not use sentiant beloved creations as pawns(pee on)
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And yet God did a similar thing with the Pharaoh of Egypt and also hardened his heart.
That means that even if his heart was getting softer because of the mighty and powerful actions that God had displayed outwardly...........God hardened it. For the Pharaoh there was simply no escape.
The text certainly claims the Pharaoh hardened his heart. That is because it is actually his heart.
The thing is, there are causes as to him hardening his own heart. The cause is God. Think of it this way:
Say that I did something to offend you & you hardened your heart against me because of my act.
One may say that I was the one who offended you & hardened your heart, however, it was you who actualy chose to be offended because of my act.
So it was for God & Pharaoh, God didn't super naturaly turn Pharaoh into an offende person with a heard heart. It was the actions of God against a proud man that influence Pharaoh yo harden his hart.
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1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Just like saying that God is going to offend him & He knows this because Pharaoh is proud.
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"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
God raised this king up for a set purpose.
The purpose was to display HIS power in the Pharaoh.
That means God actually worked with a real and tangible power INSIDE the Pharoah. How does it mean that?
God could have displayed HIS power if Pharaoh obeyed the voice of moses.
God didn'r need to make Pharoah to not be able to obey.
Tell me, why would God do anything against His own commands?
Like God saying, Obey me, but I won't let you & I'll condemn you because I won't let you.
This is lunicy.
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What then shall we say?
Is God unjust?
Not at all!
For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh:
"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me:
"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
"Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'
"Does not the potter have the right......................
It is a real and tangible power and force that God uses. Your theology don't make sence, it don't line up with reality, makes God into a sadistic tyrant.
Again, like God saying, Obey me, but I won't let you & I'll condemn you because I won't let you.
Please explain this. with commone sence & reason, not with Scripture that I interpret another way.
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He raised up a human being (the king of Egypt) with the sole purpose of showing people that HE has power over and above some earthly human being even if he is a mighty king.
The heart of the most majestic and powerful king on the planet is nothing in the hands of the God that made human beings.
Now you have to answer to yourself.
Why is it if the king could not do other than what controlled his heart he is blamed? Is this a correct rephrase of the question:
If the king could not do other than what controlled his heart, why is he blamed?
The answer is that he shouldn't be blaimed in reality.
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"Then why does God still blame us?
For who resists his will?"
It is something we just have to deal with No, God would not be so nonsensical and make us to just have to deal with it.
Unreality can not be delt with!
God does not want us to check our brains at the door.
There is nothing that we just have to deal with accept for the truth which allways makes sence and line up with reality.
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I would certainly hope people do not see God as a tyrant and hate Him for working His power in His creature. Any level headed person who is not yet indoctrinated with this trash would recognize the tyrrany.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/4/2008 12:50:14 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
You did not give criteria, all that you gave were arbitrary reasons. So please, give the criteria that God chooses to elect.
Criteria: a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criteria
Here is what I posted;
according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love
That is the standard on which His decision is based. All your saying is that God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".
This is arbitrary and you know it.
Please be honest and give an un-arbitrary answer for the criteria that God uses to choose whom He elects.
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John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
It was those that belonged to God that wouldn't hear, But as many as did hear him & receive Him, to them, HE gave he the right to become the children of God, even to them that chose to believe on his name(John 1:12) 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise.......
Please let us continue in John 1. The ones that heard Him are;
.....children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
That is because sinful man is so messed up and fallen he needs to be born again. But, still, those who are the elect (his own) does not reciev HIM. John 1:11. How do you get by this?
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No, the things of the spirit of God are unclear to the natural man. The natural man is able to know the things of God Romans 1:20. Which are clearly seen, that is how they are without excuse.
There is a diference between the things of God verses the things of the Spirit of God 1Corinth 2:14. How do you imply that they are able when Jesus says they are unable? I guess you didnt see the diference.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him(God) are clearly seen from the creation of the world...
1Corinth2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God:
See the diference?
All man kind are able to see the things of God, but not the things of the Spirit of God.
The Things of God influence and persuade those in the flesh to submit to God.
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The text reads; 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
If they were so able I am sure Jesus could have asked; Why is my language not clear to you when you are so able to hear what I say? They were not able to hear His words because they refuse Him.
If they didn't refuse HIM the would be able to here His words.
The reason they cant hear his words is because they reject the One who Speakes the words.
It is like you can not hear someone you hate, his words can not efrect you.
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Tell me the unarbitrary criteria for election. Sinful man is so lost in sin that he has to be elected, otherwise all would perish. Were His own not elected?
If they are, then why did they not recieve Him? John 1:11
Or do you think that they still received eternal life?
Tell me the unarbitrary criteria for election.
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11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls-she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Do you know the diference berween corporate election & personal election?
The Scripture you quoted is about corperate election.
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The criteria is all according to God and it depends on Him showing mercy to whom He wills. That IS the criteria. My answer is not going to change the more times you ask me. Do you know what arbitrary means?
Is your answer going to stay arbitrary?
Do you actualy think that God elects arbitrarily?
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Sounds like your saying that one needs to be saved before he will get saved. IOW,
One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can obey.
Here is that term "sinful nature" again;
6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
The sinful mind is death and does not submit because it is hostile......and nor can it submit. That is inability. However, all mankind is able to submit to truth, no matter what.
BTW,What translation are you using?
That is more of a paraphrase.
Don't use quotes from a paraphrase just so uou can make a point.
The verse actualy says:
6 For the mind-set [disposition] of the flesh is death, but the mind-set [disposition] of the Spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind-set [disposition]of the flesh is hostile towards God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed is it able [to be].
8 Now the ones being in [the] flesh are not able to please God.
Why are the not able to please God?
Because they refuse the truth. All mankind are able to subit to truth, you can't deny that.
Even those who are of the mind-set [disposition] of the flesh can know and love truth. The truth shall set them free.
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Why do you think Ephesians 2 says you were dead?
"Dead" is not trying to promote the will of man as if he powerfully turns to God.
You think that it implies you submitted your mind to God of your own will and were not hostile and just started believing? Being dead in trespasses and sins; actualy means that we were without a relationship with God because of trespasses and sins.
Do you not know that spiritual death is only a severed relationship with God?
Don't forget this, for it is key in this subject. We need to have the same definitions if we are to understand each other.
Just as the phrase you use as sin nature, we both know that it is realy the fesh, Sarx.
We both know that those who walk in the flesh can not pleas God, however, they can still love truth. For we all know the unsaved may love truth, it is a fact.
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9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. IfYou know the Greek in the least sence, you know that the term sinful nature is actualy the word Sarx, which means flesh.
I do not disagree to that Scripture you just quoted.
Furthermore, there is realy no controling in any Scripture use quote. It is actualy an influencing factor, not a controling one.
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So what controlled the sinful mind and caused it to submit to the gospel if turning to the gospel pleases God? It's not realy a control, but an influence.
That which influenced our mind was the flesh. That which influenced to submit to the Gospel was the truth of it, the conviction of sin in it, the destination of hell because of sin, the love of God in it, the freedom of sin in the gospel.
All the above influenced me to submit to God so that I may walk after the spirit. By faith.
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One needs the Holy Spirit, before he can choose to do that which is evidently the right thing to do. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6The mind of sinful man is death, but th | | |
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