|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 1:22:17 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 425
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
I believe Dave W has really got a handle on it.
Eph 2 teaches.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
What we see in the text is the Gentile 'grafting in'. The saints and fellow citizens are those elect Jews who by faith obtained the promises of God and believed God unto salvation. WE Gentiles that have done the same are now apart of what was primarily a Jewish tree.
We are in the time of the Gentiles, but that time will come to an end and God will bring Israel, those whom he determined to exist in these last days, to save them and bring a fulfillment of the promises.
The Church is the congregation of the righteous Jew and Gentile.
God has made promises distinctive to the bloodline Jew and therefore must needs be fulfilled.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Paul noted that Gods word cannot fail and has not failed even though the Jew for a time has largely fell into unbelief. But we see written clearly in the new testament the "and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. "
To the Jew....belong....adoption, glory, covenants the law....the worship....promises...patriarchs.....and Christ.
Therefore Paul is making it to be clearly understood that the Jews were still an entity that were under Gods provision as an entity.
Yet we know that Christ has made both Jew and Gentile one 'body'. But that body consists of bloodline Jews who are the original intended recipients of Gods word and promises, even Christ himself.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 1:27:28 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5661
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
However I do not think that every individual who does not repent can be included in "all."
Wow DaveW, that seems a bit of a "Fish-crawl" answer for you (someone who nearly always answeres with complete certainty)..
Please explain how God (after Christ) will allow some who do not accept Christ to enter into Heaven with those that do?
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 1:47:32 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 425
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi RC:
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
The trouble with this word "all" is we try and fit the definition of "every single person without exception" into the context and the context as well as the remainder of the bible just wont carry it.
"all Israel" can only mean one thing after the biblical study has been done. "all" means "All that God determined to save". We know many fell into unbelief and died in their sins. Jesus tells us in John 8 to the Jews..he said....Joh 8:22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
Jesus was sent to the Jews, yet some did not believe and therefore they are not included in "all" that will be saved. Afterwhich many more under Pauls preaching rejected the gospel and they too, cannot be included in the "all" that will be saved. All is limited to God's election. Calvy or no calvy, the bible is clear on the issue.
This same thing is evident today, Jews and Gentiles some believe some do not. They cannot be the recipients of mercy or of salvation because Jesus tells us specifically If they believe not they will die in their sins. To say "all Israel will be saved" and to say "that he may have mercy upon all" must be understood in the light of Gods election that Paul explained in numerous other books, as well as Romans itself.
All can only be understood evangelistically as "to both Jew and Gentile"
All can only be understood soteriologically as "Whom God has chosen in Christ"
Other definitions of 'all' that seek to mean "every single person without exception" will not fit without creating contradictions within scripture. Since the scripture cannot contradict, we must reexamine our definitions and obtain the biblical ones that sustain a coherent biblical message.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 1:48:58 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
|
quote:
You are looking at this from too western a perspective. Jewish perspective does not seperate physical and spiritual like that. Greek gnosticism does. Paul wrote from a Jewish perspective.
This is why we have so much misunderstanding and
the various doctrines we have developed in the West.
I yest wuv it......lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 1:52:13 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Wow DaveW, that seems a bit of a "Fish-crawl" answer for you (someone who nearly always answeres with complete certainty)..
Please explain how God (after Christ) will allow some who do not accept Christ to enter into Heaven with those that do? Perhaps you did not understand what I said with all the negatives in there.
stated more plainly: If someone does not repent, they are not part of the "All Israel" that will be saved.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 2:24:17 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Those saved will be the remnant of the tribes of Israel and Judah whom receive the full effect of the new covenant of Jer 31:31 and thus come to know Christ. I believe we have to understand the context of both Zec 13:9 and Jer 31:31 in conjunction with Rom 11:26 to fully under the term “and so all Israel will be saved.
Just my opinion for what its worth.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 3:18:10 PM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Hi RC:
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
The trouble with this word "all" is we try and fit the definition of "every single person without exception" into the context and the context as well as the remainder of the bible just wont carry it.
"all Israel" can only mean one thing after the biblical study has been done. "all" means "All that God determined to save". We know many fell into unbelief and died in their sins. Jesus tells us in John 8 to the Jews..he said....Joh 8:22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
Jesus was sent to the Jews, yet some did not believe and therefore they are not included in "all" that will be saved. Afterwhich many more under Pauls preaching rejected the gospel and they too, cannot be included in the "all" that will be saved. All is limited to God's election. Calvy or no calvy, the bible is clear on the issue.
This same thing is evident today, Jews and Gentiles some believe some do not. They cannot be the recipients of mercy or of salvation because Jesus tells us specifically If they believe not they will die in their sins. To say "all Israel will be saved" and to say "that he may have mercy upon all" must be understood in the light of Gods election that Paul explained in numerous other books, as well as Romans itself.
All can only be understood evangelistically as "to both Jew and Gentile"
All can only be understood soteriologically as "Whom God has chosen in Christ"
Other definitions of 'all' that seek to mean "every single person without exception" will not fit without creating contradictions within scripture. Since the scripture cannot contradict, we must reexamine our definitions and obtain the biblical ones that sustain a coherent biblical message.
John
I get what you are saing. The word "all" means all of the physical Jews who repent.
Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel". Does that mean those who have not repented do not belong to God's Israel, as spoken of in Galatians 6? Meaning, they're not saved?
Galatians 6:16
16And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Just some questions.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 3:18:31 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5661
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
stated more plainly: If someone does not repent, they are not part of the "All Israel" that will be saved.
And that would include Believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior and the only way to God? Correct.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 3:54:07 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 425
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel". Does that mean those who have not repented do not belong to God's Israel, as spoken of in Galatians 6? Meaning, they're not saved?
Galatians 6:16
16And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Just some questions.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Hello Jessica:
Yes it means exactly that. Those who do not repent will not be saved, they are not included in the "all Israel" that will be saved.
When the scripture puts qualifiers on general terms or words, we must include those qualifiers to obtain the accurate biblical message.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 4:49:58 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1503
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
|
If I may interject, Israel did believe in Yeshua by faith and salvation was granted to them by faith, just as is it is to us today, as the writer of Hebrews shows us in chapter 11. They just did not have all of the details. That is why they ernestly searched the Scriptures to determine, "How is Adonai going to do this?"(general quote for illustration, not Scripture).
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/30/2008 5:12:41 PM
|
|
|
MichaelTheeArchAngel
Posts: 207
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
|
Here is my two cents worth.
Genesis 17:3. Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Romans 4:13. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
Exodus 12:37. The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.
Leviticus 19:34.
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 24:22.
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.
Numbers 15:15.
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD.
Joshua 8:33.
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.
Isaiah 14:1.
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.
Isaiah 44:5.
One will say, 'I belong to the LORD ';another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and will take the name Israel.
Ezekiel 47
21 "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.
Ephesians 2:19.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...
Isaiah 56:3.
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."--- 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
8 The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."
Romans 9:6.
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
1 Corinthians 14:21.
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
Ephesians 2:12.
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Ephesians 2:19.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
Ephesians 3:6. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:29.
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 9:24.
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 10:12.
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Galatians 3:28.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11.
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Revelation 2:9.
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9.
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Acts 3:25.
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'
Romans 8:17.
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Galatians 3:29.
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Ephesians 3:6.
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Titus 3:7.
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder. ******* 15. You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself; you have extended all the borders of the land.
Romans 10:19. Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
Esther 8:17. In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.
Psalm 2:8.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
Psalm 18:43. You have delivered me from the attacks of the people; you have made me the head of nations; people I did not know are subject to me.
Psalm 82:8. Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.
Psalm 111:6. He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.
Zechariah 2:10. "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."
Zechariah 8:23. This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
Matthew 12:2. 1In his name the nations will put their hope."
Romans 4:18. Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Romans 9:8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
_____________________________
Truth is made known by the reason of the facts.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 8:36:37 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
M3AA, again you are looking at this with too much of a seperation between spiritual and physical truths. God deals with both and treats them the same.
If you really believe the bible, then you have to acknowledge that God's callings are forever. (Rom 11.29) God does not change. (Mal 3.6) What he promised to the physical decendants of Jacob, and the task he has for them can never be relinquished. God will not retreat from HIs promise and He will not give it to another. That is not to say that others cannot be added to it. All gentile believers are added to Israel. It also does not mean individuals cannot disqualify themselves from participation in His blessings and callings. They are the branches broken off.
But even of the disobedient ones Paul says this:
Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved because of their ancestors.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 9:07:04 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5661
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
M3AA, again you are looking at this with too much of a seperation between spiritual and physical truths. God deals with both and treats them the same.
If you really believe the bible, then you have to acknowledge that God's callings are forever. (Rom 11.29) God does not change. (Mal 3.6) What he promised to the physical decendants of Jacob, and the task he has for them can never be relinquished. God will not retreat from HIs promise and He will not give it to another. That is not to say that others cannot be added to it. All gentile believers are added to Israel. It also does not mean individuals cannot disqualify themselves from participation in His blessings and callings. They are the branches broken off.
But even of the disobedient ones Paul says this:
Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved because of their ancestors.
Dave,
For some reason I am really having a hard time getting a handle on your feelings concerning modern day Jews who do not accept Christ as their savior while they are alive here on this earth in this time.
Do you believe that they are not saved, and never will be saved if they do not believe that Christ is the Son of God and died for their sins before they die?
The reason I ask is that many Jews have spoken of a "Second Chance" during the "Ressurection" period, what ever that may be.
This idea does seem to negate the "Die once, then the Judgment" dealy that I hold to, so please help us to understand this ideology.
And if this is the case do you think the same would hold true for say a Hundu or Muslim?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 9:52:32 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
RC: I have made myself clear. Perhaps you are falling into the trap of assuming that because someone is not saved it means they are irrelevant.
No if they do not accept Yeshua/Jesus I do not think they are saved. I ascribe to what is called in our circles "Narrow hope." Most of the leadership of the network I am in ascribe to what is called a "narrow wider hope."
Our congregational leader defined these terms this way: (as it was the topic of discussion at a recent leadership symposium of our network and many other congregations nation wide)
As for terminology, those who believed that God allows no latitude whatever in what our response to Yeshua must be in order for us to have eternal life were said to ascribe to a “narrow hope.” Those who believed that there is little latitude, but that God, in his mercy allows some exceptions, were said to ascribe to a “narrow wider hope,” and those who believed that God allows considerable latitude to those who have not sufficiently heard the Gospel message, were said to ascribe to a “wider hope.” At the extreme end, were at least two participants who would probably say that if one comes to know God intimately, loves Him as the Sh’ma commands, and leads a Torah-faithful and repentant life, that person has de facto received the Messiah, and may be saved even if he does not admit that the one in whom he believes is Yeshua. That view is termed a “wide wider hope.”
As I stated above, I fall into the first group, the narrow hope camp. BUT - I also believe that the Jews that have not accepted Yeshua/Jesus as Lord, according to scripture, STILL have a part to play in God's plan. They still have a calling and a function whether they end up in heaven or not.
Perhaps that is where you are not understanding me?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 10:20:00 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
Hey Spongey baby (not to be offensive) I have agree with you most of the time but with this I'm am having a little hard time about it. In Isaiah ch. 55 God tru the prophet is issuing a call for one to hear what he has to say and then a call for repentence. He goes on ahead and haste prop0het say that our ways are not his ways our thought pattern are not his. Also too keep in mind than he is the same yesterday and today what you write here has issues with that thought process.
quote:
The imagery is very powerful, indeed. But is it possible or customary to graft another branch into another branch, or must it be grafted into the trunk? I think the illustration is that both kinds of branches are grafted into the same trunk, fed by the same life giving root system--God Himself. Some branches are native to that trunk, having originally been a part of that trunk/ root through the old covenant, but now broken off because of unbelief. We Gentiles were never a part of the trunk/ root to begin with, yet by believing are grafted into the trunk alongside the remaining natural branches and also bear the fruit of the life giving sap that comes from the root just as the natural branches that remain do.
What is different from the old and the new is what Jesus said at the passover meal that this cup is the New covant in my blood which poured out to you. Which meant he was the sacrifice for our sins. But the other reqiurement is that what God said is the truth and not a lie. As the evil one would have us to try to believe. So faith in what God says needs to happen for salavation, for Abraham then and us today.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 12:19:09 PM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 978
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Hey Spongey baby (not to be offensive) I have agree with you most of the time but with this I'm am having a little hard time about it. In Isaiah ch. 55 God tru the prophet is issuing a call for one to hear what he has to say and then a call for repentence. He goes on ahead and haste prop0het say that our ways are not his ways our thought pattern are not his. Also too keep in mind than he is the same yesterday and today what you write here has issues with that thought process.
quote:
The imagery is very powerful, indeed. But is it possible or customary to graft another branch into another branch, or must it be grafted into the trunk? I think the illustration is that both kinds of branches are grafted into the same trunk, fed by the same life giving root system--God Himself. Some branches are native to that trunk, having originally been a part of that trunk/ root through the old covenant, but now broken off because of unbelief. We Gentiles were never a part of the trunk/ root to begin with, yet by believing are grafted into the trunk alongside the remaining natural branches and also bear the fruit of the life giving sap that comes from the root just as the natural branches that remain do.
What is different from the old and the new is what Jesus said at the passover meal that this cup is the New covant in my blood which poured out to you. Which meant he was the sacrifice for our sins. But the other reqiurement is that what God said is the truth and not a lie. As the evil one would have us to try to believe. So faith in what God says needs to happen for salavation, for Abraham then and us today.
No offense taken at all. I'm not suggesting for a minute that an Israelite was saved through observance of the old law. All I'm saying is the ancient Israelites in general are the one's who already had knowledge of God and potential relationship with Him, as revealed through the structure of the law. They can be readily grafted back into relationship with God because of the knowledge and calling they already possess about God, and the former relationship they had with Him. This cannot be said for the Gentiles.
The Gentiles had no such relationship with God. They had no direct calling, and had no access to any real knowledge about Him. When Gentiles get grafted in, they are not being grafted into something that they are in the least familiar with in any way shape or form.
I'm not interested in the direction this thread has gone. I don't want to debate what Jew was/ wasn't actually saved during the time of the law, or how. I was hoping the topic would stay on defining the illustrations Paul used in his allegory of the root and the branches. The point he is making is the Jews were the ones who were (potentially) plugged into God (the root) by virtue of the relationship God had established with them through their literal separation and calling through the natural ancestory of Abraham. Outwardly, it was all about them specifically from the beginning. That's why they can be grafted back in so easily. In general, the Gentiles are not flesh descendants of Abraham and were essentially alien to the knowledge of God and His covenant and never were connected to the root in any way to begin with.
No need to go to exceptions to what I'm saying. We all know about Gentiles who enjoyed the covenant promises along with the natural Jews. I'm speaking in very broad generalities, but that's how the allegory is to be understood.
I'm very short on time and have only scanned the threads today, but it appears that Michaeltheearchangel has nailed many of the scriptures that support this understanding. The natural people of Israel have already had the privelege of relationship with God, having once been grafted into the root (God Himself) under the calling of Abraham and the system of the law. The Gentiles as a group have never had that lost privelege that they can be grafted into where they once have never been. Make sense?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 7/31/2008 12:25:24 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 7/31/2008 7:12:30 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
I'm truly not up to speed on this subject, so please forgive the ignorance inherent in the following question:
"Is the real issue how we define the word "all" or is the better question how we define the term, "Isreal" or "Jew"?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Replacement theology - 8/7/2008 8:32:31 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
I'm truly not up to speed on this subject, so please forgive the ignorance inherent in the following question:
"Is the real issue how we define the word "all" or is the better question how we define the term, "Isreal" or "Jew"?
It is the definition of "all." In Romans 11 Paul definately puts traditional Jews (enemies of the gospel) as part of Israel.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
