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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 5:07:14 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
(Abishua) The LXX shows that the actual statement was "I am the Being" (the self existing).
(benelchi) No, the LXX shows that they translated the statement as "I am the Being"; however, they capitalized being because the realized this was a name of God.
(Abishua) The Masoretic texts reads "I will be whom I will be"
(theo) Pure nonsense. Capitalization to prove a point was not used until the middle centuries. ALL the manuscriptus were in capital letters with no punctuation.
Capitalization for emphasis, chapter numbers and verse numbers, and punctuation as a tool for understanding came late, not early, and it was NOT in the original documents but was provided by the translators with their "best guess" solutions in some cases.
quote:
(Abishua) There is no connection between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14
(benelchi) Clearly the Jews who heard Jesus thought differently, in Jn. 8:39 they were ready to stone Jesus because of this statement.
The Jews were after ANY excuse they could trump up. They had already accused hom for doing the same thing they themselves did.
The Jews said: "...we have one Father, even God." [John 8:41]
The Jews accused Jesus: John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he..... said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." [John 5:18]
How is it that some see this as "the Jews understood Jesus claim to be God?" They did not understand THEIR claim to be God, with the same language. It is a trumped up charge.
God did NOT send Moses to Israel's people to say "I AM hath sent me."
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And GOD SAID MOREOVER unto Moses, THUS SHALT THOU SAY INTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. 16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:" [Exo 3:13-16]
This is a far cry different from the claims made for proof that Jesus said "
I am" claiming to be God.
Jesus was informing the crowd that he existed in prophecy prior to Abraham existing in reality. How do I know this? Because Jesus existed prior to Abraham only in prophecy and in the logos of God, which had not yet been given to men.
Paul tells us Adam preceded Jesus: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." [I Cor 15:44-46]
Adam first was made a "living soul;" Jesus then was spoken into prophecy as "the seed of the woman" in [Gen 3:15]. Then Abraham was born.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 8/4/2008 5:25:41 PM >
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 5:35:45 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
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This heretical denial of the deity of Christ Jesus astounds me and saddens me that people are out there teaching that, leading to sure damnation for all those who fall for this false teaching. The church fathers defeated Arianism long ago. It is time true Christians today do what they did long ago. And that is to stamp out this Heresy period. One good thing is rejecting this heresy is something that the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and ALL Protestants can all agree on.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 5:49:06 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
ANYONE who claims the new testament teaches Jesus is God does so in ignorance of the old testament teachings and prophecies.
Your post misses the mark on so many levels that I don't know where to begin.
Here's just one of many prophecies that show you have completely missed the truth about Jesus' identity in the OT:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
-Isaiah 9:6
Who besides Jesus was the child born, the son given? And that child and son is also declared in the same verse to be MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER. Contradiction or proof that you don't understand what is obviously true?
What's the matter, Theo, can't answer scripture?
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 6:12:44 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually the MT reads "eheyeh asher eheyeh". "eheyeh" is the first person imperfect form of HYH, and in biblical Hebrew the imperfect tense only describes an incomplete action; the actual corispondence to an English tense is determined by the context. A good reference to look at to understand why "I Am" is appropriate in this verse is SR. Drivers book on Hebrew verb tenses. It is considered the definitive work (in English) on Hebrew verbs.
benelchi,
Please don't confuse the matter.
"I will be whom I will be" is an English translation of the Hebrew MT. "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" is an English transliteration of the Hebrew MT. Transliterations are used as a tool to help in the pronunciation of the original language. "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" is what "I will be whom I will be" would sound like when spoken in the Hebrew tongue.
"I am that I am" is an incorrect English translation of the response God gave to Moses when asked for his name (in Exodus 3:14).
Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular future form. "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" which is unfortunately interpreted to mean "I am that I am" in the King James Bible (and others) is an inaccurate translation. The most literal translation would be: "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."
The word Ehyeh is used a total of 43 places in the Old Testament, where it is usually translated as "I will be" -- as is the case for its first occurrence, in Exodus 3:12 -- or "I shall be," as is the case for its final occurrence in Zechariah 8:8.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/5/2008 1:35:44 PM >
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 6:13:02 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(momuddog)
The Bible makes the claim that Jesus is God in John.
John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
KJV
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(theo) Does anybody out there in cyberspace understand what
"begotten" means? As in "the only begotten of the father."
Jesus was "Begotten" - CAUSED TO BE." LOOK IT UP.
quote:
(momuddog) He is the image of the invisible God and He created all things. Now turn to Gen. 1:1 and read "In the beginning God created."
Col 1:15-18 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
First of all, "Have we not all one father? hath not one El (God) created us?" [Mal 2:10]
"El" is singular in number, not plural.
Second: Jehovah is "El" singular in number "Thus saith El Jehovah (God the LORD), he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" [Isa 42:5]
Third: El Jehovah said: "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;" [Isa 44:24]
this is shown better from the Septuagint which reads Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, Egw kurios (first-person-singular "I") am the Lord that performs all things; I stretched out the heavens monos (alone)(the significance of this will be shown shortly), and established the earth." [Isa 44:24 Sept]
"Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; egw eimi (first-person-singular)kurios (I the LORD) have created it." [Isa 45:8]
"Egw (first-person-singular)(I) have made the earth, and created man upon it: Egw (first-person-singular)(I), even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have egw (first-person-singular)(I) commanded." [Isa 45:12]
"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: egw eimi kurios (first-person-singular) (I am the LORD); and there is none else." [Isa 45:18]
Now, there is no getting around the fact that God uses a pronoun whos design is made for determining how many "persons" are involved in "I." There is one person, not three, not two, but one singular and alone.
Remember that little Greek word "monos" up there in Isa 44:24 Septuagint? Here is where it becomes significant. If God is alone in creation, Jesus is not with him. If Jesus is with the Father, they are "ouk monos" - "NOT ALONE." But if they are ALONE, they are "MONOS."
Now follow the thought closely -
When the disciples left Jesus, he prayed to his Father that they were leaving him "monos" (alone), But, says he, "I am ouk monos" because thou art with me. Jesus, with the Father is "ouk monos."
Jesus WITHOUT the Father is "monos."
The Father without Jesus is "ouk monos."
"Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monon (alone): and yet I am ouk monos (not alone), because the Father is with me." [John 16:32]
Jehovah testified that he "monos" (without Jesus) created the heavens and the earth.
quote:
(momuddog) I could go on with much more but the testimony of the Bible is clear in informing us that Jesus is God. Only by rejecting the clear teaching of the Bible can one come to any other conclusion. If you accept the Bible as the Word of God, you must believe Jesus is God.
Mike "Poet" Carroll
(theo) I sometimes wish it were that simple. But then I come to my senses and rather wish all men would come to a knowledge of the truth.
It is not only by rejecting the clear teaching of scripture that the doctrine of the trinity is developed, but it still requires "development' after one is through the scriptures. In other words it requires more than the scriptures to develope the trinity doctrine.
"Theos 'o 'uios (God the son) was not INVENTED until 270 a.d., and then it was introduced as a baptismal formula by Gregorious Thaumaturgis, of Caesarea in Pontus. This is THIRD CENTURY, yet is expressed as though it is right out of scripture."
And the beat goes on.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 6:18:10 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
This heretical denial of the deity of Christ Jesus astounds me and saddens me that people are out there teaching that, leading to sure damnation for all those who fall for this false teaching. The church fathers defeated Arianism long ago. It is time true Christians today do what they did long ago. And that is to stamp out this Heresy period. One good thing is rejecting this heresy is something that the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and ALL Protestants can all agree on.
Let me see you offer a rebuttal to the scriptures as I have presented them. "I don't believe it" is not a rebuttal. Explain the trinity in the face of scriptural presentation in the first-person-singular. If the first-person-singular has no application, why do we believe ANYTHING in the bible?
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 6:22:52 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2996
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quote:
Remember that little Greek word "monos" up there in Isa 44:24 Septuagint? Here is where it becomes significant. If God is alone in creation, Jesus is not with him. If Jesus is with the Father, they are "ouk monos" - "NOT ALONE." But if they are ALONE, they are "MONOS."
Gen 1:1 in the beginning Elohim created......
is Elohim singular, or is it plural?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 7:38:26 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(JimboFletch) What's the matter, Theo, can't answer scripture?
(theo) Hey, Jimbo, chill out. I can only respond to one post at a time. If I should happen to overlook one of yours, just call it to my attention and I will try to respond. O.K? But I caution you, be careful what you ask for.
quote:
(theo) ANYONE who claims the new testament teaches Jesus is God does so in ignorance of the old testament teachings and prophecies.
(JimboFletch) Your post misses the mark on so many levels that I don't know where to begin.
Here's just one of many prophecies that show you have completely missed the truth about Jesus' identity in the OT:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
-Isaiah 9:6
Who besides Jesus was the child born, the son given? And that child and son is also declared in the same verse to be MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER. Contradiction or proof that you don't understand what is obviously true?
MIGHTY GOD
Gibbowr El is not equal to Shaddai El. The Father is "Shaddai El."[Gen 17:1]
This naming of Messiah "Gibbowr El" (mighty God) is in keeping with a promise made in prophesy: "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high."Isa 52:13
This was fulfilled in "giving him a name which is above every name." When Jehovah calls Messiah "God" he never calls him Jehovah, but "adone," or "Elohiym," or "El." These are all "names above every name" among men.
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;" [Phil 2:9-10]
"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." [Eph 1:19-23]
The reason for these prophecies and these promises was to give Jesus the courage to endure through intense suffering of anticipation. "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;" [Heb 5:7]
It was specifically because of the promises of prophecy that Jesus was able to complete his goal. "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him ENDURED THE CROSS, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." [Heb 12:2]
EVERLASTING FATHER
God gave certain men, the children of God, to Jesus: "Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion." [Isa 8:18]
This is quoted in Hebrews and applied to Jesus. "And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." [Heb 2:13]
And the children given to Jesus by God are referenced several places in scripture, a few of which are offered here:
"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN him." [John 17:2]
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which THOU GAVEST ME out of the world: thine they were, and THOU GAVEST THEM me; and they have kept thy word."[ John 17:6]
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which THOU HAST GIVEN ME; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom THOU HAST GIVEN ME, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that THOU GAVEST ME I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." [John 17:9-12]
And so it is Jesus is called "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father." It is in fulfillment of prophecy.
Now I have a question for you.
If Jesus is God, why is he outranked by Melchisedec? "For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;" [Heb 7:1-2]
Jesus is "Prince of Peace" in your own reference; Isa 9:6
Also why did Jesus, being in the loins of Abraham, pay tithes to Melchisedec?
"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him." [Heb 7:1-10]
"For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." [Heb 7:14]
Juda was yet in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec, and the less is blessed of the greater.{Heb 7:7}
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 7:48:20 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
Remember that little Greek word "monos" up there in Isa 44:24 Septuagint? Here is where it becomes significant. If God is alone in creation, Jesus is not with him. If Jesus is with the Father, they are "ouk monos" - "NOT ALONE." But if they are ALONE, they are "MONOS."
Gen 1:1 in the beginning Elohim created......
is Elohim singular, or is it plural?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
Obviously you either have not read the thread, or you ignore the posts that deal with these things. Did you read post # 130?
It is obvious from God's use of Elohiym, and Wisdoms expression of being with God in the creation effort, that wisdom is also Elohiym. Elohiym does not MEAN God. It is TRANSLATED God. There is a difference. It means something close to "immortal" or references ones not subject to death. Samuel is called "Elohiym" by the witch of Endor; Abraham is called Elohiym by God. We know Samuel is not God and we know Abraham is not God, and we know angels are not God, but they are all called "Elohiym." So please, do not make more out of the word than is there.
God was addressing wisdom, "let us make man in our image" would be appropriate if wisdom is in fact considered Elohiym by God. I see no other evidence, though someone may know of somethng I need to consider. I am sure they will let me know.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 9:01:37 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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theo-book:
Your lengthy post simply proves that you are on very shaky ground -- bordering on the heretical. John 1:1-3 is sufficent to refute all your wordiness. So is Hebrews 1:1-14. Re-read them and believe them.
BTW the TOS of this forum require that you desist from your efforts to introduce false doctrine. You might find more encouragement at an anti-Trinitarian site.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 11:13:57 PM
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Kath
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theo_book
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/5/2008 11:28:05 AM
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ReadingAlong
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My dearest friend wrestled with the original poster's question and after many years of prayer & study he wrote this; I believe it is Truth and I have been deeply blessed by this understanding. I believe if you prayerfully consider it, you will see that it answers many of the questions that always arise when this topic is discussed. God bless you all.
I believe that Jesus is God.
What I believe is that in the beginning was God the Father and God the Son. They were there before creation. Because of the fall of man, and because of God's unfathomable love for us, God the Son became flesh. This is the beginning of Jesus - God with us. Before His conception there was no Jesus, there was God the Son.
To become flesh, God the Son surrendered so many of the essential attributes of deity that it is hard, if not impossible, to say that He was God anymore.
Immortality became mortal, omnipotence became vulnerable, omniscience became limited in knowledge, invisibility became visible, Holy Spirit became carnal flesh.
The creator became the created.
It is my view that God the Son sacrificed MUCH MORE than His life on the cross for us, He sacrificed His DEITY for us. Ever since I came to this conclusion, it has struck me that the totality of His sacrifice isn't even widely known, let alone appreciated. And that saddens me greatly.
So if the Son sacrificed His deity to become Jesus, how can I now say that He is God? All the attributes of deity which the Son sacrificed for us have been restored to Him by the Father.
When two or more are gathered in His Name He is there. Can we see Him? No, He is now invisible.
How does He know that we are gathered in His Name? How will He judge the quick and the dead? He is now omniscient.
All things have been put in subjection under His feet, He is now omnipotent.
He will never die, He is now immortal.
Jesus is God because God the Father gave His Son back His deity. This understanding has blessed me greatly.
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 11:35:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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ReadingAlong, your posts reminded me of Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 11:40:06 AM
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EStan
Posts: 451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
ReadingAlong, your posts reminded me of Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
AMEN! "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14 KJV) GOD WITH US! 
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 11:54:03 AM
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ReadingAlong
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
ReadingAlong, your posts reminded me of Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
EXACTLY!!! Ever since my friend shared this with me, so many other things have fallen into place.
For example, I don't believe Jesus prayed just to be an example to us -- He PRAYED; He was strengthened by His prayers. In Luke when the woman with the hemorrage touched His hem, he felt the power go out of Him -- He often retreated into prayer because He was weary and needed recharged.
He was so completely human.
Everyone who has a hard time believing He is God have some good points. Likewise, everyone who believe Jesus is God have good points, too.
They all work, though, when you understand the depth of His sacrifice, when the Son became man.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/5/2008 2:47:55 PM
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momuddog
Posts: 2
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
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OK, I read your review of the passage in John. You did not address the clear expression of the Jews who clearly understood what Jesus was claiming. We can use historical context as a tool but in truth much of that is guessing. It is clear that the Jews knew Jesus being a man was claiming to be God. In reality one does not have to agree on all doctrinal points to be a christian. The Old Testament allowed for Jesus claim in the plurals such as "let us create man in our own image." What the Logos was understood to mean 2000 years ago has some merit but some guesswork as well. What the Jews clearly stated for the reason to stone Jesus needs no guesswork. I think you are wasting a lot of energy to defend a position that was settled many years ago by scholars who were much closer to the actual events. Jesus is the only name under heaven by which man can be saved and that is more important. I have seen many good posts that differ with your opinion. Surely you see some merit in some of these or maybe you are just looking for an argument. I will pray and quit posting.
_____________________________
Mike "Poet" Carroll
National Chaplain
Combat Veterans International
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 7:10:19 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
When I read this passage, a see the example that Messiah gave for us to follow....To lower ourselves, to humble ourselves.
I know some may read this as a prooftext of Jesus' deity, but I don't think that Paul was trying to convey that message here.
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 8:50:08 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11690
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Allow me to clarify something: answering an isolated question is one thing; forceful and sustained argument against our Statement of Faith will not be tolerated.
We believe that Jesus is God the Son. We believe that this belief is crucial to Christianity.
As was said earlier, we do not require that one believes as we do to be a member of this community, but we will not entertain or tolerate arguments against out beliefs. If you are determined to argue, it would be best to find another venue in which to hone your debating skills. This is not the place for it.
If you have any doubts about what may or may not be argued here, please read the Terms of Service, the Statement of Faith and the Range of Doctrines for this site. Links can be found at the bottom of each page above the Salem logo.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Jesus is GOD the Son. - 8/5/2008 11:02:09 PM
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prophet
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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If Jesus is Not God, your salvation is nought......
Yshua basically means God saves. Salvation comes from the Lord and God is Salvation in Jesus.
Psalm 62: 1 (NIV) My soul finds rest in God alone. My SALVATION comes from Him. 2 H | | |
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