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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 12:51:23 AM
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relady
Posts: 1281
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
I would love to see our Bosses give pay cuts to our best employees and give that money to the least productive ones. That would "be an example" of what happens when the productive people are punished and the least productive are rewarded. happens in corporate America on a daily basis. I've seen it, my hubby has experienced it, and the way these companies stay in business? No one knows it's going on except those who work for these companies. Move on to the next Fortune 500 firm and the same thing is going on. These companies stay in business because they manage to keep the stock going up by laying off good workers and rewarding mediocrity. And some of them are the worst run companies not just in America but in the world!
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Study areas with large amounts of gov. welfare. I am thinking that in most of these areas the government welfare is doled out by the state not the feds. Last time i checked the only program the feds have that actually hands out money is the TANF programs and you get a grand total of some $200 & change per month and you cannot earn over something like $6800 annually to qualify. So maybe you need to take your state government to task for the large amount of money they are giving away. I can tell you that is not happening anywhere in Missouri. Anyone getting TANF is destitute and most likely homeless, LOL.
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 12:58:16 AM
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relady
Posts: 1281
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Just my opinion - it doesn't punish achievement. It's a responsibility that comes along with wealth. I'm blessed to be able to bear it. I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear someone say this!! It is such a departure from the common, "it's MINE, I earned it all by myself and you can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" mentality. 
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 9:03:08 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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ORIGINAL: ljmac
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ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
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ORIGINAL: ljmac
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ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
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ORIGINAL: ljmac
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ORIGINAL: wing2000
The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center says Obama's proposals would indeed increase taxes for small businesses, seniors and families, but only if their income was more than $250,000.
Most small businesses, seniors and families would get tax cuts under the Obama plan.
McCain's tax plan offers the biggest breaks to high-income families and businesses, while Obama focuses on those earning less than $250,000.
Two-thirds of Obama's tax cuts would go to families with incomes of $65,000 or less, according to the Tax Policy Center. Only 6 percent of McCain's tax cuts would benefit those families.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that both plans would raise the deficit - McCain's by $4.2 trillion over 10 years and Obama's by $2.8 trillion over the same period.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/08/11/20080811elex-taxes0811.html
Article based on this
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Brookings president is Strobe Talbott, a deputy secretary of state for Clinton and long time Soviet Union and Russian apologist.
Marc Morial is the president and CEO of the urban league. He was a board member for the ACLU in Louisiana and Democratic mayor of New Orleans.
These are leftist organizations friendly to pickpocket politicians like B.O.
Attack the messenger and no attempt to refute the stated facts - next.
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
Okay, since you prefer, 'attack the messenger' and no attempt to refute his message. Better?
Turn on your television, your radio, or search the internet and you will easily find others challenging Obama's tax plans. It's quite easy. It isn't my responsibility to spoon feed you.
"No attempt to refute the message", then. Thanks for playing.
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 9:26:53 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 2151
Joined: 9/23/2005
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I doubt few politicians would be in favor of increasing spending when we are setting record deficits as it is.
What fantasyland are you living in? Even the GOP, the "party of small government and fiscal responsibility" has set new records for irresponsible spending.
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For me, it would be about 50% of my marginal income. As a New York taxpayer, I pay more in marginal taxes than a Texan making $500 million/year, and I don't mind.
So you trust the government to take nearly half of your income, and you trust them to spend it more wisely than you would yourself? Amazing.
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"it's MINE, I earned it all by myself and you can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
Well, unfortunately, the money IS yours. It is not the governments to do with as they please, which is usually something useless.
I would venture a guess (just a guess) that you don't actually earn a living yourself or have to make any kind of payroll....I cannot imagine anybody would willingly work half of the year just to pay the government for the privilege...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 9:39:16 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
happens in corporate America on a daily basis. I've seen it, my hubby has experienced it, and the way these companies stay in business? No one knows it's going on except those who work for these companies. Move on to the next Fortune 500 firm and the same thing is going on. These companies stay in business because they manage to keep the stock going up by laying off good workers and rewarding mediocrity. And some of them are the worst run companies not just in America but in the world!
Just happened at one of my client companies. The deck-chair-rearrangers at Corporate decided that 'costs must be reduced', so the word came down - 2% reduction to salaried headcount AT ALL LOCATIONS. (The client's parent company, a f-200 firm, has over a thousand 'locations')
Where it broke down - where the incometence showed - is that the meataxe-wielders at Corporate made NO allowance for variations is sites':
profitability
salaried to hourly headcount ratio
previous reduction in headcount
sales dollars to headcount ratio
salaried costs as a ratio of total location cost
or, God forbid, any consideration of the actual need for the existing headcount.
My client, a location with one salaried for every ten-plus hourly production workers, had to cut the same percentage as another division in the same group, which had a one-to-four ratio, in effect punishing my client for ALREADY managing headcount more efficeintly than the other location.
It gets worse - my client reduced headcount by offering early buyout (on literally insulting terms), which meant that the people who left were:
A) approaching retirement already - ie, the most experienced personel, department heads, team leaders, and the like AND
B) the younger folks who had the talent and drive to already be looking for a better job for themselves and for whom, of course, the early buyour was nothing more than frosting on a decision they had already made.
My client lost two very senior management types, one senior tech who basically coordinated the entire shipping function (order fulfillment for clients) and the manager of our hands-on QA function, and one younger fellow who had masterminded the plant reorg and not gotten the promotion he had been promised, and who is now plant MANAGER at a competing firm.
The results, by every measure we have taken, have been catastrophic.
The problem with America today isn't clumsy government, policial corruption, shaky financial, outsourcing of manufacturing, unenforced (and unenforceable) laws, the idolization of pop culture.
Those are merely SYMPTOMS of the real problem.
The REAL problem is that America continues to put into positions of authority, in education, business, and government, people who are basically incompetant.
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 10:30:40 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Well, unfortunately, the money IS yours. It is not the governments to do with as they please, which is usually something useless.
I would venture a guess (just a guess) that you don't actually earn a living yourself or have to make any kind of payroll....I cannot imagine anybody would willingly work half of the year just to pay the government for the privilege...
Couple of things -
Technically speaking, the money we set aside for taxes really isn't ours. Christ's words were "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's. (e.g. belonging to Ceasar.)"
As far as the second point, the person you addressed that comment to most certainly does earn a living himself and knowing the industry he's in, he works longer and harder hours than the vast majority of Americans. I don't think that was a very fair comment, unless I totally misunderstood your point (very possible.)
Don't mean that as harsh as it sounded - just having trouble with words this morning. Only one cup of coffee, so the verbal skills haven't completely come online yet. (Takes at least 3 cups.)
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 10:33:45 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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relady & Swede -
We could start a new thread on the stupidity in corporate America. Could be fun. (I left one of the poster children for corporate stupidity a couple of years back - now I work for a really great company with Christians at the helm. Rare for a Fortune 500 firm.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 11:25:45 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
I cannot imagine anybody would willingly work half of the year just to pay the government for the privilege...
OK, third thought. I consider living here to be quite the privilege. Working half the year to pay for it? Honestly, not that easy to swallow but for what I get in return (stability, more freedom than in most other countries, a reasonably clean environment, leadership of the free world....) to me it's a fair trade.
Do I think the government wastes a lot of money? Of course. So do most of the corporations that I buy goods and services from. No institution is as efficient as we would like it to be. Part of the blame for that goes right back to us, though!
How much do we know about where our taxes get spent? How much do we really know about this or that house bill and who's inserted how much pork into it? Overall, Americans are not sufficiently engaged in their own government to prevent waste and keep our legislators from running amok. Worse yet, we tend to reelect the legislators who are most adept at getting tax dollars allocated to our little neck of the woods, regardless of the level of fiscal prudence involved in doing so.
In aggregate, we tend to vote based on our own pocketbooks and self-interest. So who's really to blame?
As inefficient as it is, I remain convinced that it's still the best alternative out there. Even better - we get to rejigger it every couple of years!
Edit: the "half the year" figure is a bit erroneous. the 50% tax rate is based on the top marginal rate. The average tax rate is significantly less.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 12:24:10 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Edit: the "half the year" figure is a bit erroneous. the 50% tax rate is based on the top marginal rate. The average tax rate is significantly less.
19%, as of tax year 2000.
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 12:42:12 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1290
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Orland
Status: offline
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quote:
Edit: the "half the year" figure is a bit erroneous. the 50% tax rate is based on the top marginal rate. The average tax rate is significantly less.
Depends on the state you live in. I live in a low-tax state, so the average person around me is finally done paying their taxes on April 12th (in 2008 anyway). It's much later in several parts of the country.
_____________________________
Molon Labe
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 1:28:38 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
Edit: the "half the year" figure is a bit erroneous. the 50% tax rate is based on the top marginal rate. The average tax rate is significantly less.
Depends on the state you live in. I live in a low-tax state, so the average person around me is finally done paying their taxes on April 12th (in 2008 anyway). It's much later in several parts of the country.
True, but even in New York it would be unusual for a person's average tax rate to hit 50%. Fairly common though at marginal rates.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 11:19:28 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1949
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
What fantasyland are you living in? Even the GOP, the "party of small government and fiscal responsibility" has set new records for irresponsible spending.
You have a point, but it's better to tax and spend than borrow and spend. That's why we need a party that is willing to raise taxes. I really wish we could both cut spending and raise taxes, but I'll take just raising taxes if that's what it takes.
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So you trust the government to take nearly half of your income, and you trust them to spend it more wisely than you would yourself? Amazing.
The wisest thing you can do with excess cash, IMHO, is to pay down market-rate debt or debt you will have to soon refinance if you have any. I am worried about the $31,000 per-capita that our federal government owes. That works out to roughly $96K/household. This is something that keeps me up at night, and as a result, I think the best move is to raise taxes and use that money to pay down debt.
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"it's MINE, I earned it all by myself and you can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
Well, unfortunately, the money IS yours. It is not the governments to do with as they please, which is usually something useless.
I would venture a guess (just a guess) that you don't actually earn a living yourself or have to make any kind of payroll....I cannot imagine anybody would willingly work half of the year just to pay the government for the privilege...
First off, I'd like to note that I didn't post that, although I agree with some of the sentiment.
Second off, real-estate agents work really hard even when the markets are good. Realty is a tough job right now, and I respect anyone who can make it in this market. They're sort of like people who can make it as programmers right after the dot-com bust.
On top of that, unlike most jobs, real-estate is a rare profession that both requires both hard work and only pays you for the economic value you create. I'm sure that relady works very hard to put food on the table for her family.
Please don't use ad-hominems- or if you do, at least do your research!
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relady & Swede -
We could start a new thread on the stupidity in corporate America. Could be fun. (I left one of the poster children for corporate stupidity a couple of years back - now I work for a really great company with Christians at the helm. Rare for a Fortune 500 firm.)
You don't work for my life insurance company, do you?
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 8/14/2008 11:56:08 PM >
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RE: Taxes - 8/14/2008 11:40:05 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Technically speaking, the money we set aside for taxes really isn't ours. Christ's words were "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's. (e.g. belonging to Ceasar.)"
Technically speaking, the original Caesar was dictator for life, and if memory serves all the rest were emperors.
The United States of America is a representative republican democracy. You know, by the people, for the people, of the people and all that, and I think ownership of taxes works a little differently in our present situation.
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RE: Taxes - 8/15/2008 1:32:28 AM
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relady
Posts: 1281
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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I would venture a guess (just a guess) that you don't actually earn a living yourself or have to make any kind of payroll This is almost insulting. Of course I work, I work very hard. I'm a Realtor and a sole practitioner.
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The REAL problem is that America continues to put into positions of authority, in education, business, and government, people who are basically incompetant. Unfortunately, so true. My husband came home from his corporate/manufacturing job today only slightly depressed and when I pushed him for what was bothering him his answer was "the level of stupidity is such that unless you are experiencing it you would never believe it's possible." LOL, if I ever make enough money at real estate so that he can give up that job I will be a happy woman. Yup, the true cream is not rising to the top in American big business any more. Maybe it never did, but somehow I think there has been a huge paradigm shift in the last 25 years that I just cannot wrap my mind around.
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On top of that, unlike most jobs, real-estate is a rare profession that both requires both hard work and only pays you for the economic value you create. I'm sure that relady works very hard to put food on the table for her family. Thank you. I do work very hard to make the money I make, which isn't much really. But I am doing about as well as I did as a scretary, so it's worth not having a boss or someone setting my schedule for me. I think I've been ruined from being an employee, lol. But there are lots of tradeoffs. I do pay more taxes now, but it's worth it.
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RE: Taxes - 8/15/2008 9:36:22 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 221
Status: offline
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"a thief is more moral than a congressman; when a thief steals your money, he doesn't demand you thank him." -Walter Williams
Silly Walter Williams; Doesn’t he know? We should be thanking the government, that they let us keep some of our(did I say that? I meant their) money; to spend on frivolous things like milk, bread, gasoline, utilities, etc., And, some of us actually have enough to invest, in the evil fat-cat corporations, that are really at fault, as some have pointed out here. Oh most merciful government, we thank thee! I knew there was a reason I cried on April 15th. It was tears of joy! So if your local school, or municipality goes wanting, because their residents are all tapped out, be of good cheer, as you federal government is handling it all for you. As Kevin Bacon said, in the movie Animal House; “thank you sir, may I have another?”
“Foreign influence is truly the Grecian horse to a republic. We cannot be too careful to exclude its influence." -Alexander Hamilton, 1793‘Crazy Al’(as the other Founding Parents loved to call him) was obviously cracking a joke in this quote; He knew, as well as all of the other Founding Parents, that America was destined to be a mirror image of their European brethren. Funny guy, aint he? LOL!
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
<< HOF'er LeRoy Kelly
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RE: Taxes - 8/15/2008 9:40:29 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The REAL problem is that America continues to put into positions of authority, in education, business, and government, people who are basically incompetant.
Unfortunately, so true. My husband came home from his corporate/manufacturing job today only slightly depressed and when I pushed him for what was bothering him his answer was "the level of stupidity is such that unless you are experiencing it you would never believe it's possible." LOL, if I ever make enough money at real estate so that he can give up that job I will be a happy woman. Yup, the true cream is not rising to the top in American big business any more. Maybe it never did, but somehow I think there has been a huge paradigm shift in the last 25 years that I just cannot wrap my mind around.
I shouldn't complain - the tidal wave of stupidity in American business pays me quite handsomely, rather like Sherlock Holmes making his living off of the inept bungling of the professional police.
I just got back from my West Coast client, having earned a tidy fee for helping them realize that they really don't improve their situation by NOT making the major blunder they were considering. I saved them from an eleven-million dollar debacle, but PREVENTING this mistake didn't really advance them a whit.
Despite my personal lemonade-making, it's still my country that I'm watching go down the drain, and it saddens me.
(I am not making this up - I actually once sent one of my client's situations into the Scott Adams "Dilbert" e-mail. He replied, saying he couldn't use the material because it was so outlandish that even Dilbert couldn't make it believeable.)
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RE: Taxes - 8/15/2008 10:00:36 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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I always have to go back to Ecclesiastes - "There is nothing new under the sun."
The stupidity was always there. It's just a little more obvious now. In some ways, businesses in the U.S. are getting smarter, in some ways dumber. In the end, not much is really changed.
I also don't buy into the the idea that the U.S. is going down the drain. If you listen to popular opinion, we've been going down the drain since 1776.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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