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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 8:04:55 AM
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earthless
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Holiday,
I was not offended, so no need for an apology. This is a message board and iron sharpens iron.. and many times sparks fly.
Truth often offends and hurts - when you love someone you tell them truth.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 9:53:53 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
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quote:
As to the false teachers mentioned in the Bible, we do have clear instructions of what to do: Turn away from them.
Where does it say that? When the Judaizers for example were becoming powerful in the Galatian church Paul never admonished any of them to leave. This is from Galatians 1:
quote:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Now Paul having said that those in the Galatian church are deserting the True Gospel nowhere is it recorded that Paul told them to flee the church. Nowhere in any church correction in the New Testament from Acts to Revelation is anyone encouraged to leave and find another place because of any kind of a problem. Now I'm not saying anyone has to stay in a bad church (or any church) but I am saying that finding a different church for the reasons you mention isn't biblical. It's simply a choice.
Now in many cases - the JW's, the Mormons and those groups like the Branch Davidians they are so false and off the beaten path I would concur. The term "false teacher" though on Crosswalk is used so many times, to refer to just about anything and everything one disagrees with.
Now the way I'm taking what you are saying is "Since at my church we often go up to TACF and have had their people down at our church. Since certain members of CW believe John is a "false teacher" then nothing that I or anyone at my church do amounts to anything because of this and we are biblically bound to flee my church and all of the TACF people or have our works void? So we should never listen to any of them again, flee our church or quit wasting 10+ hours a week by several people serving a free meal, running our food bank (for pushing 200 people a week in a church of about 70?), we should quit witnessing to the community and cease trying to teach new members how to follow Christ because CW members say John is a false teacher?" Why bother since everything we do is null and void because of "guilt by association"? If that isn't what you mean and I am misunderstanding you what exactly do you mean?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 10:41:16 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Since certain members of CW believe John is a "false teacher" then nothing that I or anyone at my church do amounts to anything because of this and we are biblically bound to flee my church and all of the TACF people or have our works void? So we should never listen to any of them again, flee our church or quit wasting 10+ hours a week by several people serving a free meal, running our food bank (for pushing 200 people a week in a church of about 70?), we should quit witnessing to the community and cease trying to teach new members how to follow Christ because CW members say John is a false teacher?" Why bother since everything we do is null and void because of "guilt by association"? If that isn't what you mean and I am misunderstanding you what exactly do you mean?
The Bible asys that John Arnott is a false teacher, not members on Crosswalk.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 11:13:19 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
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quote:
The Bible asys that John Arnott is a false teacher, not members on Crosswalk.
Whichever. ; ) Now someone show me where everything I have done in the last 6 years is totally moot because of association with him.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 11:25:14 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
The Bible asys that John Arnott is a false teacher, not members on Crosswalk.
Whichever. ; ) Now someone show me where everything I have done in the last 6 years is totally moot because of association with him.
I don't believe anyone has said that about you because every man stands on their own. But the spiritual company we keep does say a lot about our own beliefs, etc..
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 11:27:17 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
As to the false teachers mentioned in the Bible, we do have clear instructions of what to do: Turn away from them.
Where does it say that?
Paul warned the Galatians about those who "pervert the gospel of Christ." He also said, "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9).
Multitudes today are preaching a perverted gospel. Those who teach salvation by baptism, or by works, are teaching a perverted gospel. Yet, we are supposed to cooperate with them in evangelism and Christian work, according to many today. If we fail to expose these false prophets, then we have betrayed Christ and His gospel.
We are to SEPARATE from them. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" (2 Corinthians 6:17).
This makes it plain. God's people are to come out of apostasy and religious error.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 11:38:31 AM
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lw9
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quote:
rlj: Now Paul having said that those in the Galatian church are deserting the True Gospel nowhere is it recorded that Paul told them to flee the church. Nowhere in any church correction in the New Testament from Acts to Revelation is anyone encouraged to leave and find another place because of any kind of a problem.
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel – 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Properly divide. Don't take just one passage and run with it. Paul isn't addressing false teachers so much as he is addressing those within the church who are listening to false teachers. Big difference. It's still made very clear that false teachers are condemned, though.
Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. KEEP AWAY FROM THEM. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naïve people.
2 Jn 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Rev 2:2 “I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.”
Rev 2:20 “Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:14 “Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. 15 Likewise you also have those who hold on to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent Therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”
In Rom 16:17-18, Paul IS addressing false teachers and how the Church should deal with them: Keep away from them and do not welcome them. There's no way to dance around the above passages and pretend like false teachers should be tolerated within the church, and the warnings to the churches makes this perfectly clear. God specifically praises the church at Ephasus for not tolerating false apostles and rebukes the church in Pergamum because they "have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam" and the church obviously did nothing about it. I'm not sure what more evidence we need.
If a church is inviting false teachers to speak at their church or is supporting them in any way, then yes, they are guilty of sharing in his or her wicked work. It really is that simple and I'm not seeing where the argument is here. A false teacher is a false teacher is a false teacher. We must turn away from them. If the leaders of a church are not doing what the Bible commands them to do and continues to support or preach false teachings, then the church leaders themselves have become false teachers. What are Christians called to do with false teachers?
Turn away from them.
Turn away from them.
Turn away from them.
The members can and should find a church that will obey God so as not to participate in wicked work and possibly shipwreck their own faith.
quote:
Soxfan: The Bible says that John Arnott is a false teacher, not members on Crosswalk.
Ditto that. It has nothing to do with what Crosswalk says. It's all about what the Bible has proclaimed.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 9/1/2008 11:53:35 AM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 1:09:19 PM
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teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
"Why did GOD say HE hated Esau?" the LORD showed me why Gen 27:41 to me it was the same thing Cain had in his heart. Jacob was humble before the LORD Esau was not...
Teclils you are too anxious to hear from the Lord on things and you need to work on your discernment. Read what the Apostle Paul had to say about this in Romans:
quote:
Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." NIV
(emphasis mine)
the older serving the younger does not mean GOD hated one and loved the other....my point was there was a reason GOD had an problems with Esau and Gen27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart. The days of mournign of my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob
enough said...
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 1:46:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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Point is... God does not love everyone. There are those He abhors/hates.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 6:52:58 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
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Earthless first:
quote:
I don't believe anyone has said that about you because every man stands on their own. But the spiritual company we keep does say a lot about our own beliefs, etc..
I wasn't sure how to take what lw said or how close of a connection he meant.
quote:
We are to SEPARATE from them. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" (2 Corinthians 6:17).
This makes it plain. God's people are to come out of apostasy and religious error.
I've always heard that scripture in the context of it concerning someone who wasn't saved so that is different than what I am used to.
quote:
Multitudes today are preaching a perverted gospel. Those who teach salvation by baptism, or by works, are teaching a perverted gospel. Yet, we are supposed to cooperate with them in evangelism and Christian work, according to many today. If we fail to expose these false prophets, then we have betrayed Christ and His gospel.
That used to get me kind of riled when I would read that. However one thing I have learned to agree with you on and that from the charismatic pov the wierd and extreme are becoming too common. I know speaking for myself I used to just ignore the more obvious ones - Hagin, Copeland, Hinn, Tilton and there are too many others to even count- or worse just laugh at them. I used to just shrug some of the stuff off and ignore it. It isn't funny and saying nothing doesn't help anyone. So if anything I contributed by my silence. I emphasized what I did because slowly am I thinking there is something to that.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 9:53:26 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
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quote:
Properly divide. Don't take just one passage and run with it. Paul isn't addressing false teachers so much as he is addressing those within the church who are listening to false teachers. Big difference. It's still made very clear that false teachers are condemned, though.
You are correct in the condemning of "false teachers" however there is no mention anywhere in the Epistle that the members of the church in Ephesus should move to Galatia or Philadelphia or anywhere else for that matter. That is what I was pointing out. I would assume that if the Judaizers were gaining sway in the church that someone was teaching it since Paul is addressing false teaching or at least a false gospel that was most probably taught.
To the churches in Smyrna, Pergamos and Thyatira Christ in no way tells anyone to leave but to get their act together. There were 3 letters to the Corinthian church though only 2 have survived (though some believe that 2 Corinthians is a combination of both) and with all of the "false teachings" in that church nowhere does Paul tell anyone to leave.
Romans 1 is clearly concerning the unsaved and every study that mentions it on CW says so.
Romans 16 is pretty powerful though. I believe it extends not just to leaders but others also since lay people can do the same things.
At this point I see Does one stay and try to make a difference or does one flee? Rhetorical question.
Now to get back to my original question to you: If someone is saved but their church has errors does this negate their salvation, works, faith, etc? I still haven't seen that in scripture anywhere.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 10:01:12 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Point is... God does not love everyone. There are those He abhors/hates.
A point made by Scripture. ; ) Earthless can probably handle this better than I but I am forced to accept that I am the created and I have no business questioning the Creator.
quote:
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (NIV and I so need to change my bible gateway default translation the spacing and such when cutting and pasting is a pain. :P )
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/1/2008 10:31:14 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1126
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Hello rlj:
quote:
You are correct in the condemning of "false teachers" however there is no mention anywhere in the Epistle that the members of the church in Ephesus should move to Galatia or Philadelphia or anywhere else for that matter.
And I posted a plethora of passages that described how we are to turn away and not tolerate false teachers [either turn them out of the church or separate yourself], yet you continue to argue this point.
quote:
At this point I see Does one stay and try to make a difference or does one flee? Rhetorical question.
When the false teachers are the leaders in a church and they refuse to repent, how exactly does one obey the Biblical command to turn away from them yet still stay in that church? Let's say they have been confronted with the truth but refuse to listen and continue on their path of false teaching. Do you sit in the back pew with a frown on your face to show your strong disapproval? Do you show up for the sermon but stick your fingers in your ears?? Do you remain and continue to support the church and help it to continue to spread lies? We don't have any problem recommending that a Mormon to leave their church, but when it hits a bit closer to home with a favorite church or teacher, it seems like suddenly the rules change.
quote:
Now to get back to my original question to you: If someone is saved but their church has errors does this negate their salvation, works, faith, etc? I still haven't seen that in scripture anywhere.
I'm not going to hand you the 'Once saved, always saved' line because it's a lie. We most certainly can fall away from the faith, and false teachers play a very big part in the falling away through their deceptive teachings, false prophecies, false signs and false wonders. That's exactly what the Bible warns us about.
If someone is saved, then they are saved, but that doesn't mean their faith cannot be destroyed over time by remaining under false teachings. After all, that IS the purpose of false teaching: To LEAD ASTRAY. If it weren't possible, the Bible would not spend so much time warning us about this.
I've already gone over the Biblical arguments about false teaching and why we should turn away from it so I won't go over it again. Suffice it to say that I personally will continue to recommend to others that they leave their church should the leadership become unrepentantly corrupt and teach lies that will lead to destruction.
Blessings to you!
< Message edited by lw9 -- 9/2/2008 9:01:05 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/2/2008 11:24:41 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
I'm not going to hand you the 'Once saved, always saved' line because it's a lie. We most certainly can fall away from the faith, and false teachers play a very big part in the falling away through their deceptive teachings, false prophecies, false signs and false wonders. That's exactly what the Bible warns us about.
Actually I'm not big on that theory either(OSAS) though I don't argue it one way or another. Yes you did in that second post answer my question whether knowingly or unknowingly. I thought you meant "automatically forfeit" as opposed to "over time it can drive you away" kind of thing which does make sense.
More later
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Extreme Prophetic - Can they get any NUTTIER! - 9/8/2008 4:02:03 PM
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SuccessinTruth
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This is ALMOST as bad as the 'Christian wicca' movement. I don't even like to put the two words on the same page. This is why the New Testament repeats over and over again, 'Beware of false prophets'. Please compare their words against ALL of Scripture and if they are in disagreement, you know who's wrong. And if they are prophesying, and the prophesies don't come to pass, that's a really good clue that they might be false prophets. May God grant us the discernment to not be deceived by the one who seeks to devour us.
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